Moab trails closed.

[Hulk]

What I'd prefer to see is a video of the actual damage way out in areas less frequented, and ask why the hell do you asshats need to go off trail and leave trash way the f--- out here?

I agree with this for sure. Just pointing out that Blue Ribbon has at least one video where they acknowledge and show that people are causing problems that give ammunition to the closure advocates. The people going off the clearly marked walking trail is so stupid.

 

[Cruisertrash]

Any of y’all hiked in the mountains around Los Angeles? Never seen so much trash in my life. Graffiti on rocks 3 hours into the hills, too. Far more than I’ve ever seen in Colorado - although any trash is bad trash. All users are guilty of these things, but non-motorized advocacy orgs can effectively spin it to being a motorized user problem … and here we are. Whatever “agenda” they the non-motorized orgs have, the trash piece is easy ammunition for them - even if non-motorized users are just as guilty. The reality and the spin can be totally different, but if the spin is working then that’s a real problem no matter how much you can cry about hikers littering. I’m on the side of thinking we need to do better as motorized users (and when we’re out hiking too). This is preaching to the choir within this club, but we can take that approach and inform other users we meet on the trail. We can influence motorized orgs like BRC to play up our responsibility and “good user” aspects so that the motorized users are a little more bulletproof when defending against the type of argument that we trash the trails.

Fully agree with @Burt88 that if the current approach isn’t working, then it needs changed.

An example, lots of wheeling clubs adopt trails - we go out to clean up, inform other users of proper etiquette, and generally set a good example. We don’t do it to brag, but maybe bragging about it starts to change the image of 4WD vehicles and their users. Maybe orgs like BRC can highlight the vast network of clubs and all the work they do collectively. Maybe BRC partners with some of the traditionally SUWA-friendly orgs like REI, etc. imagine you’re a hiker waiting in line to check out at REI who has a negative view of four wheelers, and you see a big display from BRC about all the good things clubs are doing to keep wild lands clean and how they are responsible users. Maybe it changes somebody’s mind. It could be one point among many in the quiver, maybe it pulls more donations. Who knows. Something has to be different though.

I know there’s some folks who think the “trashing the wilderness” is a non-issue, but it’s all over the marketing for SUWA and other non-motorized orgs. It’s a reality that it’s being used against motorized users and does need addressed from a public image perspective. Right now the onus is on us and the orgs that represent us to do something that works, and hopefully multiple things that work.

 

[Corbet]

The most trash I've ever seen on public lands is at Yellowstone in and around the canyon falls areas. I'm sure the LA area is appalling. For me its appalling at all levels so I just don't go.

 

[J1000]

Basically one ranger at Horseshoe Bend could have stopped all the bad behavior shown. There has been record visitation to Federal lands in the last few years, specifically after COVID. So there should be record funding available to hire rangers, so where are they? Where are the radio and TV commercials flooding the airwaves stating BLM and National Parks are hiring?

Instead of acting appropriately and meeting the increase of visitation with an increase in staff and facilities, the powers that be are just on a warpath to close everything down. Faced with that decision I'd happily throw my support in with the drunk OHV party pricks. I will pick up their trash when I see it. At least I will be able to drive to where the trash is.

The examples people have brought up are caused by average tourists. People from other countries or states. Or local high school kids going to their usual party spot. Hardly any are caused by actual OHV enthusiasts.

 

[nuclearlemon]

Or local high school kids going to their usual party spot. Hardly any are caused by actual OHV enthusiasts.

often the spawn of the same housewives spending money and signing petitions to shut us out

 

[MonPetiteShoe]

I'm curious how effective a marking campaign over radio waves, Spotify, Pandora, billboards etc would be at at least getting the knowledge out there. i.e. A billboard right when you pop in past Arches that says something like: "Clean up yer trash yuh filthy animals."

I know we keep preaching education, but you can't always expect people to search for that influence. Sometimes you just need it to be passively advertised to you. It's a small step, but we can't change peoples minds without some kind of influence.

My FIL bought a SxS because he wanted to get out and play. He'll go out with us, and he's responsive to suggestion about how to drive and recreate responsibly. The same can be said for anyone trying to use our public lands.

Maybe it's just a drop in the bucket, but social mentalities aren't built overnight...

Edit: because of real bad spellin'.

 

[jps8460]

Part of this is also why I’ve been pretty against all of the apps and websites mapping the crap out of everything and blasting it to ever person with 10 bucks, a phone and 4 wheels. I was on the original scoping call with trails off road and once I heard the vision I was like ahh hell no. We used to have to work to get to remote spots ya know.

The lack of funding is appalling for public lands…. But here we are, I’ll retort the previous comment with why is it our fault that our government can’t fund the agencies they created? I’d love to vote for where my tax dollars head, but that’s a pipe dream.

If someone says this is my unit I’m managing it, then I say cool manage it. In a good business if the management sucks, you find new management, not close the business down…… or most things in life.

The cause of these problems are not that people can access the problem areas. The problem is the select few folks who have no respect for them.

Solve the problem is where I’m at. Start with enforcing the rules that already exist and see where that gets us..

I can’t imagine telling anyone I’ve worked for…. Yea we found the problem, 2 of the employees that work here really suck and they are leaving the shop a mess…. I recommend closing down the shop. Hahahaha

Or better yet.. here are options abcd a)close the welding department b) close down the shipping area c) close those 2 but allow only tig welders and tape guns d) all of the above

All silliness aside, this is a classic “golden rule” issue. Those that have the gold make the rules. If we want to fight this head on BRC needs more gold as they are the only ones going toe-to-toe with folks trying to get the entire west shut down to motorized recreation.

You will not find middle ground with folks that don’t seek middle ground.

 

[DouglasVB]

For what it's worth, leaving trash and destroying resources is not new at all. Just look at historic mining districts. Or talk to the old timers who cleaned up all of the post-WWII deer hunting camps in many USNF lands back in the 70s. My dad spent several summers hauling out huge loads of garbage from the wilderness in the Sierra National Forest on a pack string that had been carted in there by deer hunters between the late 40s and early 70s. There are still huge trash piles deep in the back country from those old deer camps that I find regularly when out hiking.

At least for hiking/horse packing in wilderness areas in large swaths of the Sierras and Cascades, the heyday (and biggest impacts) was in the 60s and 70s. It died down a bunch in the 80s and 90s. Aside from a few very famous areas, it's still basically dead for much of the mountains. There are high alpine lakes right at tree line a three day hike from the nearest road where there are records of 20+ parties camped around it on any given weekend in the summer in the 70s. Now those same lakes might get two parties in an entire year visiting if it's a busy year. I'm told there's MUCH less trash left today in the back country than 50 years ago but now there aren't a bunch of USFS employees back there hauling all the crap out like there were in the 70s.

I deal with the same sort of issues underwater when I go SCUBA diving out here in Monterey, California. Tons of ghost fishing line. All sorts of trash underwater (both new and old). Old commercial fishing gear. Old equipment from the canneries that John Steinbeck wrote about in Cannery Row. Old military equipment that fell off ships. Huge anchors that fell off ships. All sorts of crap underwater. And then there's the problem of other ocean users trying to kill me either unknowingly, accidentally, or intentionally. Both my and I have been hooked by fishermen and have had to cut ourselves lose before we would have been dragged to the surface (some fishermen will intentionally throw their lures on top of our bubbles). My had a hook go through the web between her thumb and index finger once that we had to pull out. I've had to cut my way out of ghost line entanglement (you often cannot see it until it's too late). We've both had close calls with boats driving over top of us. It can be a real show in the ocean.

And then there's the resorts that ban snowboarders which personally impacts me as a snowboarder even though I never sit down in the middle of runs.

 

[Stuckinthe80s]

@Burt88 I've read through your comments and I can certainly see where you're coming from and can see value in your position. For me, I liken it to my decision to stop supporting the NRA even though I'm a strict supporter of the 2nd amendment. I supported them for years until I got tired of the monthly magazine that was clearly trying to stir me up by my emotions, telling me countless stories of little old ladies who protected themselves with their guns. It's not that I don't support gun rights, I just don't like being manipulated by fear mongering. Also, the fact that there are over 430 million guns in the US pretty much guarantees we don't have much to worry about with regards to losing those rights. (maybe I'm naive?)

Where this situation is different is that, like others have said, I don't think there is any middle ground. It sickens me to say that but there's no getting around it. Land is being closed and I agree that a compromise would be the best solution but every year, more land is taken away without even consideration of a compromise. Yes, you can make the argument that it's because one side doesn't want to negotiate it, just keep fanning the flames of argument for the benefit of fundraising, but which side is that? Do you know with absolute certainty?

Is the preservation of land through closure for the overall good? Maybe? But what is the definition of the common good? I'm a firm believer in things like this becoming a slippery slope. If these closures continue, what's next? I'd rather be on the side of the group trying to keep things open even if that means it's at the cost of people being able to trash some of the areas. The reality is that trash and misuse is concentrated in an extremely small portion of the millions of acres of open land that is currently accessible. Of course I don't in any way condone the behavior but I also don't agree with shutting all of it down as means to stop it.

 

[timmbuck2]

The BlueRibbon Coalition Membership Meeting is an important occasion where we come together to discuss our ongoing initiatives, celebrate our successes, and plan for the future of recreational access and land-use advocacy. Your active participation and engagement are crucial to the success of our organization, and we look forward to your valuable input. Six members of our board are up for re-election, please visit https://www.sharetrails.org/board-election/ and vote. The meeting will be hosted on Zoom, making it accessible to members from all around the country. Zoom meeting details and a link to join the meeting will be shared with you in advance. We understand that your time is valuable, and we appreciate your commitment to our shared cause. Your input, enthusiasm, and dedication continue to drive our efforts forward, making a positive impact on recreational access and land use for all. We encourage you to mark your calendar and make every effort to attend this important event. If you have any specific topics or questions you would like to address during the meeting, please feel free to email them to brc@sharetrails.org by Monday, December 11, 2023. This will help us ensure that we cover all relevant points during the meeting. Thank you for your continued support, and we look forward to seeing you on December 13th. Together, we can continue to make a difference in preserving our cherished outdoor spaces for generations to come. Visit the meeting website: https://www.sharetrails.org/meeting/ for the agenda and any updates before the meeting. Sincerely, William Schuster Administrative Director BlueRibbon Coalition

Date: December 13, 2023 Time: 6PM (Mountain Time) Location: Zoom To register for the event, visit www.sharetrails.org/meeting or click the button below.

 

[timmbuck2]

Should be an interesting call.....

 

[Cruisertrash]

Part of this is also why I’ve been pretty against all of the apps and websites mapping the crap out of everything and blasting it to ever person with 10 bucks, a phone and 4 wheels.

I was camped on Medano Pass last year, right at the gate at the top there's a little camp site. I hear a vehicle coming down the trail before I can even see him, I can tell he's moving quick and bouncing off shit. About 3 minutes later a brand new 4Runner with temp tags comes roaring up. All the MaxTrax, all the RotoPax, rooftop tent, bronze aftermarket wheels ... and stock highway tread tires, no lift. Dude in the front seat and two toddlers in car seats in the back.

"Hey bro! Bro, I got a question!" So I walk over. "Hey, I saw this trail on my app and wanted to try out some overlanding today. Do you think I can make it down this trail?" I still shake my head about that. I appreciate people wanting to get into a new hobby, but what this guy was doing was reckless, dangerous to his kids, and potentially bad for the trail and other users. Is this the new crop of folks out wheeling? Are they all like this guy?

Is everything just an app and 4 wheels away?

 

[timmbuck2]

I did the same thing with my first Wrangler and a trail guide book.....but yeah the entry is easier than ever. Maybe the apps need to have more education? My trail guidebook back then had lots of advice on trail etiquette and good dos and don'ts.

 

[Beach Boy]

We are not the only ones getting hammered with closures by BLM and National Forrest Service. In the Moab paper the locals are up in arms with the proposal to close around 30% of land for use for snowmobiling, cross country, and snowshoeing in the La Sal mountains.

 

[DouglasVB]

We are not the only ones getting hammered with closures by BLM and National Forrest Service. In the Moab paper the locals are up in arms with the proposal to close around 30% of land for use for snowmobiling, cross country, and snowshoeing in the La Sal mountains.

I'm a bit surprised at snowshoeing and xc skiing. Those are pretty low impact. Is there a migratory herd of deer or elk in that area that they're protecting?

 

[J Kimmel]

We are not the only ones getting hammered with closures by BLM and National Forrest Service. In the Moab paper the locals are up in arms with the proposal to close around 30% of land for use for snowmobiling, cross country, and snowshoeing in the La Sal mountains.

Good. Maybe they’ll close even more to other groups which will hopefully start to open eyes at this bulls#*t

 

[Beach Boy]

No, they just want the area to revert back to wilderness, no human access during winter. Basically everything over 9,000 feet which is the open meadows for winter activities.

 

[J1000]

I was camped on Medano Pass last year, right at the gate at the top there's a little camp site. I hear a vehicle coming down the trail before I can even see him, I can tell he's moving quick and bouncing off shit. About 3 minutes later a brand new 4Runner with temp tags comes roaring up. All the MaxTrax, all the RotoPax, rooftop tent, bronze aftermarket wheels ... and stock highway tread tires, no lift. Dude in the front seat and two toddlers in car seats in the back.

"Hey bro! Bro, I got a question!" So I walk over. "Hey, I saw this trail on my app and wanted to try out some overlanding today. Do you think I can make it down this trail?" I still shake my head about that. I appreciate people wanting to get into a new hobby, but what this guy was doing was reckless, dangerous to his kids, and potentially bad for the trail and other users. Is this the new crop of folks out wheeling? Are they all like this guy?

Is everything just an app and 4 wheels away?

What's the problem? He found a trail and stuck to it. Didn't go off trail or go off on private property or anything. It's a well used trail not that far from towns. Worst case scenario he dents his shiny new truck and learns a lesson. Best case he joins RS.

 

[nuclearlemon]

Good. Maybe they’ll close even more to other groups which will hopefully start to open eyes at this bulls#*t

years ago when a mountain bike group was joining in to shut down ohv trails, i proposed to the state association that we join in on a petition to shut down mountain biking trails. 'you take my trails, i'll take yours'. didn't happen, but i signed a petition myself to shut down an area to mountain bikes then made sure to tell two cyclists exactly why i did it.

 

[levi]

Maybe we need a new section called "Trail Closures: Threats & Fights" in addition to our normal Land Use planning section. We could put it up in the top section.

If y'all like this idea, I'm open to a better name than my suggestion.

Maybe? But fwiw, I don’t know what Land Use would normally contain & have found value in the tangents and elaborations.