2024 Land Cruiser "250 series"

[Corbet]

The towing comparison pretty much confirmed what I suspected. You’ll need to rely on the ICE for long mountain passes as the battery will be gone long before the summit when towing at or near capacity. It will be interesting to see how the battery performs towing my 2000-2500lb camper. If the truck will be still working too hard to charge mid climb and cycle as the grade changes. The power is pretty comparable to a stock 80-series with the benefit of forced induction and double the gears. I’m confident I won’t be in anyone one’s way on the HWY towing.

The hybrid for me has always been about the city driving. That should be where it offers the greatest benefit. And what allows me to justify DD a stock Cruiser. Hopefully 34” tires don’t change things much. Side note, My little 2.0 flat 4 in my Impreza works pretty hard in town and only gives me 22-24MPG depending on the season. 22 with winter fuel, 24 in the summer. I think I can nurse those numbers out of a 250 in town.

Half the time I’ll still tow the camper with the 80. Just depends where I’m going, who I’m with, and what vehicle will be more desirable at our destination.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The towing comparison pretty much confirmed what I suspected. You’ll need to rely on the ICE for long mountain passes as the battery will be gone long before the summit when towing at or near capacity.

Physics would dictate this to be so.

Raising 2,000 lbs up 4,000 feet is 10,850 kJ. That converts to roughly 3 kW-h of potential energy. So for very loose and fast numbers that's going to be how much kinetic energy you have to use (neglecting friction and all of the real stuff).

Toyota puts a 1.87 kW-h battery in the Tacoma.

I presume they will draw it down to the extent it makes sense and that will depend on how you drive.

The motor in a Tacoma is 48 HP but to know how that will assist depends on RPM, for one. A 48 HP motor at 4000 RPM is providing 63 ft-lb of torque. It's helping but can't do it all.

You have this energy stored and you can choose to use it in place of gasoline or you can use it to hold 60 MPH. It can't magically do everything.

Say they would have slowed down to let the engine turn at 3000 RPM the motor would then be providing 84 ft-lb of torque, doing more of the work and thus further reducing gas consumption, at least up until the battery depletes.

There's a sweet spot where you get your gasoline engine at it's maximum efficiency point and the drivetrain and road are working most to your advantage. It's kind of a complex intersection of gasoline engine RPM, friction, gravity that come into play. Where I bet hybrids really help is to prevent losing ground on intermediate slopes (like a short section where I-70 goes from 8% to 12% for 500 feet, which you really notice in a 22R at elevation) or trying to pass. So I'd also think Toyota would reserve battery for that sort of thing. You may only notice the transmission not kick down as often rather than it being an obvious thing.

Most people don't want that, though, they look for the maximum power point which is usually quite a bit higher RPM. You lose both motor torque and drivetrain gain (e.g. higher gearing means the torque isn't mutliplied as much) if you seek to go at a faster speed over efficiency.

Also notice that going down the west side they ended up with a full battery. That's why, they potentially generated 33% more energy than they needed. Here again the real world won't meet theory because to regenerate you lose some in conversion and have to use brakes. So it might not really go from 0% to 100% depending on how you drive and what traffic allows.

Oh, BTW, the general rule of thumb is one gallon of gasoline has 33.7 kW-h of potential energy. So you can start to see how much a hybrid system can really help you. Say it actually takes perhaps 1/2 gallon of gas to pull that trailer up to the Tunnel. This is real world stuff. You can only get at most around 1/3rd of the energy out of gasoline, most of it ends up heat. But still your truck does maybe 8 or 10 kW-h of equivalent work in this hypothetical then you can use that hybrid energy to help in reducing consumption or proportionally more work.

 

[Corbet]

View: https://youtu.be/kcNlKJCzudg?si=YpkL39aa21OvLnOx

Great video. The best I’ve seen on providing real info not just the Toyota press release notes. At 42 min he talks about cargo capacities and a warning label. I took that as 120lb on the cubby cover. Not for the whole cargo compartment like he implies. This needs additional research. Placing a limit that low on the rear of the truck is completely illogical.

 

[Rzeppa]

Great video. The best I’ve seen on providing real info not just the Toyota press release notes. At 42 min he talks about cargo capacities and a warning label. I took that as 120lb on the cubby cover. Not for the whole cargo compartment like he implies. This needs additional research. Placing a limit that low on the rear of the truck is completely illogical.

Best I've seen too. I watched it in full, then showed my wife some select footage, and the 120 lb thing really stuck out. We also weren't sure whether that was the entire battery compartment cover, or just the cubby in the back. Also, 60kg = 132lb, not 120. But still, that doesn't seem like much. I wonder what the margin is, 2x maybe?

 

[gungriffin]

The towing comparison pretty much confirmed what I suspected. You’ll need to rely on the ICE for long mountain passes as the battery will be gone long before the summit when towing at or near capacity. It will be interesting to see how the battery performs towing my 2000-2500lb camper. If the truck will be still working too hard to charge mid climb and cycle as the grade changes. The power is pretty comparable to a stock 80-series with the benefit of forced induction and double the gears. I’m confident I won’t be in anyone one’s way on the HWY towing.

The hybrid for me has always been about the city driving. That should be where it offers the greatest benefit. And what allows me to justify DD a stock Cruiser. Hopefully 34” tires don’t change things much. Side note, My little 2.0 flat 4 in my Impreza works pretty hard in town and only gives me 22-24MPG depending on the season. 22 with winter fuel, 24 in the summer. I think I can nurse those numbers out of a 250 in town.

Half the time I’ll still tow the camper with the 80. Just depends where I’m going, who I’m with, and what vehicle will be more desirable at our destination.

Even at elevation with just the 4 cyl, you will have torque for days. I am guessing that the turbo is fully spooled by 1500 RPMs, and that should mean you have full torque. Now MPGs in that situation will be a whole different matter.

One of the other oddities with these smaller turbos is peak tq will be quite a bit below redline. You can see that on the dyno below. So it isn't like you will have to redline the T24A-FTS to get over the passes.

 

[gungriffin]

Just a heads-up, I have used this company's tuners before. They work pretty well. The only mild down side is that while the throttle response is smooth, it isn't as good as a full re-flash of the ECU. Good news is that they don't void the warranty so long as you detach it before taking the vehicle in for service or repairs. It looks like the 2.4 turbo is good for about an extra 40 whp with just 93 octane. You can usually get even more hp with E30. E30 is just a mixture of 91 and e85 to obtain 30% ethanol. That would probably take the engine out to somewhere closer to 60-70 extra whp. This isn't approved for the 250 yet, but they will release the 250 soon.

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[J1000]

The 250 will probably tow awesome compared to previous gen Cruisers. Turbo engines are cheating. On paper the 4-cylinder turbo engine makes 278hp alone. That is about the same power as the 3.5L and 4.0L V6, and the 4.6L and 4.7L V8. Toyota makes a lot of different engines with that power level.

The key is that it will still be making 278hp at 11,000 ft because the turbo can make up the difference. A naturally aspirated engine will lose up to 30% of their horsepower at those altitudes. That means the mighty 5.7L 3UR is only making ~270 HP above 10,000ft. Then add in that the 250 is significantly lighter. It does have a pretty low tow rating of 6000lbs, though. So just on the engine it's going to tow well even without the hybrid assist.

Sure, the battery won't take you all the way up to the tunnels, but for all of the other ups and downs on I-70 or 285 or any other road in CO you will get the full benefit of the battery being able to regen downhill or as speed limits lower and then use that energy to get up the next hill or back up to speed. I would think that would be worth a couple MPG easily.

edit: ^^as you can see above turbo torque curves are pretty much cheating too.

 

[gungriffin]

The 250 will probably tow awesome compared to previous gen Cruisers. Turbo engines are cheating. On paper the 4-cylinder turbo engine makes 278hp alone. That is about the same power as the 3.5L and 4.0L V6, and the 4.6L and 4.7L V8. Toyota makes a lot of different engines with that power level.

The key is that it will still be making 278hp at 11,000 ft because the turbo can make up the difference. A naturally aspirated V8 like the 4.7 or 5.7 will lose up to 30% of their horsepower at those altitudes. Then add in that the 250 is significantly lighter. It does have a pretty low tow rating of 6000lbs, though.

Sure, the battery won't take you all the way up to the tunnels, but for all of the other ups and downs on I-70 or 285 or any other road in CO you will get the full benefit of the battery being able to regen downhill or as speed limits lower and then use that energy to get up the next hill or back up to speed.

Is it the digital waste gates that allows for more boost at elevation to make up for the lower atmospheric? At least until the turbo runs out of boost.

I am always shocked by how much elevation effects NA engines. 3% per 1000 ft and it compounds. This will make a huge difference at the mountain passes. Vail Pass at 10,660 is about 37% hp loss on a NA engine. Mt Blue Sky (AKA Mt Evans) 14,150 would be almost 52% lost at the peak.

The regen should also be amazing for preserving the brake pads too. Apparently that is a big reason why the Ford Escape Hybrid was a popular choice with cab drivers. The pads/rotors apparently lasted up to 3x as long.

 

[J1000]

Is it the digital waste gates that allows for more boost at elevation to make up for the lower atmospheric? At least until the turbo runs out of boost.

I am always shocked by how much elevation effects NA engines. 3% per 1000 ft and it compounds. This will make a huge difference at the mountain passes. Vail Pass at 10,660 is about 37% hp loss on a NA engine. Mt Blue Sky (AKA Mt Evans) 14,150 would be almost 52% lost at the peak.

The regen should also be amazing for preserving the brake pads too. Apparently that is a big reason why the Ford Escape Hybrid was a popular choice with cab drivers. The pads/rotors apparently lasted up to 3x as long.

Yeah basically, the ECU measures absolute air pressure so it can increase the turbo boost to compensate for less ambient pressure.

 

[Corbet]

Turbo’s still drop off with elevation just no where near as bad as NA. Both our Outback and my 80 noticeably loose power even turbo’ed. Like 1% per 1000’ verse 3%

 

[J1000]

Turbo’s still drop off with elevation just no where near as bad as NA. Both our Outback and my 80 noticeably loose power even turbo’ed. Like 1% per 1000’ verse 3%

Yes, those vehicles only measure manifold pressure and not absolute air pressure so they don't increase boost with altitude. I'm guessing the 80 is purely mechanical boost control which will behave more like a supercharger with altitude. The new 250 is way more advanced than both.

 

[ScaldedDog]

For any of you other luddites with a Car and Driver subscription, the July/August issue has the new LC on the cover, with a review from Utah inside.

I wish the 550 was as simple as my '23 GX, but with the new drivetrain and powertrain. It could double as my daily and tow rig.

Mark

 

[SteveH]

Good technical article on the new generation turbo Toyota engines. https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/...rticle/55037008/toyotas-dynamic-force-engines

 

[Capriblue45]

I wish Toyota would publish a paper documenting the hours of testing and what failures happened on this new engine. There is a whole bunch of variable speed systems that give me pause. Not sure I like the on board computers deciding how much oil pressure an engine needs???

My sales guy tells me one with my name on it will most likely come in in July. After reading this article I'm not sure i will take it. Something to be said about the reliability of a dumb 2F.

 

[Corbet]

Well the good thing as Toyota reduces the number on engine options accross the line they should get more reliable.

 

[Capriblue45]

Not sure the 3rd gen tundra guys would agree with that.

 

[Corbet]

Not sure the 3rd gen tundra guys would agree with that.

I’ll revise to “should get more reliable with time”. Based on the fact the limited number of engine options will put more of them on the street to potentially fail and get improved upon. But out of the gate it’s still a crap shoot.

 

[Capriblue45]

I drove through Cheyenne this afternoon and the attached 1958 was on the Toyota dealers lot. According to their website this is still available.

 

[Notyourmomslx450]

Dissent Off-road. Is killing it with the new 250!!


View: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8zOzsvOnDZ/?igsh=aWM3MTB4dDhldnk1

 

[Rzeppa]

I got an email from Groove this morning. My sales guy Harrison wrote that my new 250 was "last seen in Wyoming" and should be here within a week. Ige you can't have it - I already put a deposit on it!