Winch Suggestions

allen.wrench

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It's basically about average heating, not peak values.
just like Toyota says your engine has 239HP but 99% of the time you use more like 50 or 100. Good thing, too, since asking your engine to run at 100% rated HP constantly would kill it fast, too.

Maybe another example to help explain is AC house wiring. For the same length, same conductor material, and the same gauge used in an extension cable, the cable that has a higher heat rated insulation (105degC vs 80degC) might be advertised for use in "heavier" duty applications where higher current draws are possible. My example is a lil bit of a jump stretch in the logic here, but I believe applies.

Allen
 

DouglasVB

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I have used the badlands winches on 4 rigs for years with no issues. The newer versions seem especially stout.
I've been using Harbor Freight Badlands winches as well. I've never had an issue with mine. They've always worked when I've needed them (which is rarely).
 

DaveInDenver

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Maybe another example to help explain is AC house wiring. For the same length, same conductor material, and the same gauge used in an extension cable, the cable that has a higher heat rated insulation (105degC vs 80degC) might be advertised for use in "heavier" duty applications where higher current draws are possible. My example is a lil bit of a jump stretch in the logic here, but I believe applies.

Allen
On point for sure. Insulation type and temp rating are key to selecting wiring. Using 75°C PVC vs 105°C EPDM is important to the decision.

In reality it's very difficult to melt copper conductors and you could in theory run winches using like 8AWG, if you ignore voltage drop. Copper melts at 1084°C.

What happens is the copper gets hot and melt through the insulation, which causes shorts circuits or fires. So the max current handling of a cable is based on how much it heats and at what point the insulation no longer can keep it protected inside. It's a double edged sword, here, though. Insulation also prevent heat from escaping so it's going to make the conductor hotter as well as protecting it.

If you look overhead you'll notice that the wires on transmission lines are usually bare without insulation. Part of it is to allow them to run cooler (this lowers resistance, thus losses). It's also not necessary being high off the ground and adds weight unnecessarily to the towers.
 

DaveInDenver

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Upon reflection I have, in my haste, overlooked a significant detail here. The amount of current consumed will be shared between the field and commutator (and shunt that might exist).

The HP (torque) developed isn't related to current perfectly 1:1, so I don't trust my numbers literally. I'm honestly not sure off the top of my head how much current these motors require to develop the field, which will affect how much I'm in error in assumptions of HP vs current.

The principles of work/power/speed, time and averaging are the important concepts but please don't go choosing or designing a winch from these posts without consulting additional resources. Which your humble reporter is doing to hopefully provide more valid analysis. I sincerely apologize.
 
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DanS

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This is a great question about component sizing.

I'll mention that those solenoids (Prestolite 15-487) are rated 100A and only two are switched on at a time. So it's not a question that's limited to the DC88. I smoked stock solenoids after all.

Also the question relates to the size of cable you need to use and why Warn supplying 4AWG and 2AWG is OK when the charts seem to indicate you should use 1/0AWG.

The first thing to know is the 9000 lbs and 478A values are based on locked rotor values. That means the point where the maximum torque is developed (thus max current) but this for an electric motor is at zero RPM. So no practical work is done, so this is a baseline but not the only value.

Also you'll notice immediate that 478A isn't even going to match the motor rating. Warn calls the motor on an XD9000 a 4.5HP motor. The electrical equivalent is watts and is related to HP as 1HP = 746W. If you remember the electrical formula for watts it's voltage times current.

So if you take 4.5HP that should be 3,357 watts, what at nominal 12V is 280 amps. That's the motor's working rating. If you ask it to do work at 478A that's 7.69HP. So the real world doesn't match the datasheet maximums.

The motor will do 478A/7.69HP but only very briefly right as it stalls or starts. It can't really do more than 4.5HP for any significant length of time.

The trickery here is that Warn (and they are not unique) know that you aren't going to ask this winch to do 9000 lbs of work continuously, all the time. There are winches designed for that and they are physically larger. There's reasons why it's this way but suffice to say it's also why recovery winches are NOT designed for overhead or critical uses. If it was an XD9000 would be given a WLL much less. I don't know exactly, but it would surely be under 1,000 lbs and I'm sure there's braking or auto latching features it would need as well.

So back to how we can use this contactor.


We've already established that an XD9000 is really only a ~5000 lbs winch (based on 4.5HP, 280A). Now even that number is going to be subject to duty cycle and actual use.

The numbers Albright give are indefinite, meaning no time limit. At 30% duty cycle but with no limit it'll do 185A forever. It's about how much heat builds up and can be shed over time. They assume that 30% duty might mean you run it 3 minutes on, 7 minutes off. Or 18 minutes on, 42 minutes off. Or who knows. It's just given that you have some amount of off time for the on time to arrive at a duty cycle.

So if you know and limit overall use the device can handle more power. So if we use a more realistic ~280A max and figure normally we ask it do even that much it might be for say 5 minutes, 300 seconds. Then we're right on the curve, maybe slightly aggressive. But we also know that at that much current the motor itself is going to be hot and need a rest, too, so it's not an unreasonable assumption to think our average power is lower and times are probably less aggressive.

Screenshot 2025-04-09 at 16.31.55.png

There's another spec you need to look at. The maximum interrupt value.

For a DC88 that's 600A. So if you do stall at 478A but let go right away the contactor shouldn't weld itself closed.

Screenshot 2025-04-09 at 16.04.47.png


I'll leave cable sizing (and fuse/breaker if you choose to use them) for another discussion but the same principle applies. You don't ask the motor to consume 478A forever without a break. So if you figure 280A is your real peak and even that isn't constant you'll find that you really don't need a 1/0AWG or 500A fuse. It's basically about average heating, not peak values. We are a little loose with values because the whole system is a balancing act of theoretical capacity vs actual use cases.

We don't really need 9,000 lbs of winch just like Toyota says your engine has 239HP but 99% of the time you use more like 50 or 100. Good thing, too, since asking your engine to run at 100% rated HP constantly would kill it fast, too.
Where was Dave when I was sizing the fuses for the winch in @SaintAgatha RBGX? I think she posted on GXOR with what I came up with (500A fuse) and was told by a whole bunch of internet dudes that it was wholly inadequate and we'd blow fuses all the time. Since then, winch has pulled, quite a bit. No fuses blown, and spare fuses have stayed in the glovebox no sweat. That's for a ComeUp 9.5 winch, FWIW.

Dan
 

Inukshuk

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Where was Dave when I was sizing the fuses for the winch in @SaintAgatha RBGX? I think she posted on GXOR with what I came up with (500A fuse) and was told by a whole bunch of internet dudes that it was wholly inadequate and we'd blow fuses all the time. Since then, winch has pulled, quite a bit. No fuses blown, and spare fuses have stayed in the glovebox no sweat. That's for a ComeUp 9.5 winch, FWIW.

Dan
I agree a 500A fuse is a waste of time.
I never heard of anyone fusing a typical winch installation. Dave can probably tell us if a 500A fuse would even blow if the line shorted to frame or winch melted.
A battery switch is a nice idea for line protection if there is space to have it very close to the battery.
 

Corbet

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Inukshuk

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I saw that but waiting for Factor55 to offer some upgrade products. I'm concerned for the safety of my balls with that old school hook.
@Corbet from where I sit that winch is sized appropriately for your load.
 

Inukshuk

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All things considered it does appear to be an above average sized belt winch. So I'll take it as a complement.
You do you.
Don't choke the load.
 

nakman

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well once again I've managed to derail an otherwise informative thread into a completely inappropriate tangent... just one of the many services I provide here. :lol:

try to steer this back... for the record, I do in fact run a 500A switch to intercept the + wire between the winch and second battery on the GX. It's been working really well, I like that I can leave the power disconnected from the winch pretty much all the time, and since I need to open the hood anyway to plug in the controller there's no real inconvenience either.
IMG_3251.jpg
 
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DaveInDenver

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I agree a 500A fuse is a waste of time.
I never heard of anyone fusing a typical winch installation. Dave can probably tell us if a 500A fuse would even blow if the line shorted to frame or winch melted.
A battery switch is a nice idea for line protection if there is space to have it very close to the battery.
Correct, a 500A fuse would never open.

A fuse (or breaker) on a winch isn't to protect the winch. Or similarly your starter.

What's a fuse in this application doing?

Remember the purpose of fuses: to protect wiring primarily. Secondarily you may protect the source.

In this case what's going to fault? It's going to involve most likely either the motor itself burning up or the heavy cable hitting ground (either loose, cut or a knucklehead jamming a wrench on it without pulling the battery negative).

In most cases the battery will have enough energy to let the starter winding melt and eventually interrupt the circuit, the cable will itself melt or the battery will run out of energy.

We tend to view batteries as infinite wells of energy but this is not true. In the case of lead-acid the chemistry is self limiting, too. You can not get unlimited current from a starting battery, it will eventually just hit a limit. Now this presents a knock-on problem. The reason a battery can't give boundless current is they have an internal resistance. This resistance is very small but at very high currents this resistant is real and creates heat, same as the filament of light bulb or space heater. This heat is what will cause them to explode. Not good.

None-the-less, Toyota does what they can to protect the connections, uses a cable with good insulation, etc. They feel no need for overcurrent protection and it's a reasonable decision based on decades of real world observation. Winches follow the same criteria. Motors just don't usually fail in ways that present risks that would dictate fuses.

However, that said, I did decide to put a fuse on my winch because of realities that make it different than say your starter. For one the high current connections and cables are exposed and I've seen jerks vandalize winches by dropping tools into people's control boxes. Another scenario that bugged me was being in an accident that crushes the bumper into the cables like a knife.

I used a 300A MRBF on my XD9000. To convince myself look at fuse time-current charts and understand how fuses work. The value of a fuse is it's holding current, not opening current. A 500A fuse will carry 500A. Now there is a time component to this that may in fact limit for exactly how long. But in almost all cases the length of time is practically forever and in cases this is not truly indefinite the length of time will be tens of minutes, perhaps hours.

So when then does a fuse open? At some value greater than it's holding current. That, my astute OHV'er, is the critical question. It depends on the fuse design, ambient temperature, how much over the rating and for how long.

In the case of the Bussman MRBF I selected they tell you.

Screenshot 2025-04-10 at 11.06.04.png

So my 300A will hold 300A for greater than 100 hours. Using my (suspect) number of 280A as a nominal operating current I fall right in line. But then let's say I do hit their stated max current of 478A. This represents 158% of the fuses rating. Which puts me somewhere betwen the 900 sec and 60 sec holding time. Even if my numbers are wrong we can feel safe saying that we will *never* ask the winch to do 478A for these lengths of time and so I feel confident that it should never open under normal use. That's what I want.

But let's say a moose and her calf jump in front of me and I slice my winch feed cables. I use 2 AWG EPDM cables.

So what's that going to look like? I've developed some spreadsheets that try to predict this, which tell me this is the heating of such a cable in short circuit of the load. The problem I have is I don't know if the cables are going to melt and open before the battery self limits. So if I assume the now sliced cables shorted with 5mm thick steel. That's not going to limit at 478A, that's going to weld itself. I wasn't so sure I wanted to trust that would happen.


2awg-478a-100percent.png
So if I assume the maximum the battery can source is going to flow and I get into a race. My chart indicates that at 1 second the cable will have only risen to 100°C (+60°C over my ambient assumption). So then what exactly can a battery source? That depends and isn't a single, distinct value. But for the purposes I assumed 15mΩ internal resistance. Which means I can probably get about 800A from this battery. That puts me at 800/300 = 267% of the fuse rating.

OK, now I'm getting somewhere. I know that at 350% the fuse will blow in at most 1 second and likely less. That's pretty close to being qualitatively safe. I'll say this, too. I've over the years waffled between a 250A and 300A MRBF for this. For a long time I had the 250A but I can't convince myself that this holding gives enough margin, so I use 300A now. I think the risk of a winch cutting out due to a nuisance fuse is more likely and a bigger immediate problem than the what-if of a sliced cable, so I'm balancing risks.

This is where magic hand waving happened. I think my battery impedance is probably really lower and it'll dump more than 800A instanteously, pushing me further along the curve. Will it for sure? I don't know without knowing more about my battery and/or testing. If someone wants to do this I'd be happy to drop a spanner and try on your truck.

Or just put a disconnect switch and turn off the winch feed until you need it. That would be the simple solution... ;-)
 
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allen.wrench

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Instead of adding a battery disconnect switch, what's the general consensus on using a connector? Like an Anderson connector some forklifts use?

Having a connector would allow for relocating the winch by using an extension cable. That same extension cable could also hook up to a pair of jumper clips. Idk maybe I'm making a solution that's looking for a problem to solve.

How would you size the connector?

Allen
 

DaveInDenver

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@allen.wrench, funny you ask. You'll be interested in seeing details of my whole winch feed. It's not so much a disconnect but a single high current tap. I put a matching Anderson connector on my jumper cables just like you are thinking. Also on my inverter. I just pull the winch, put on the jumper cables or hook up the inverter. Bonus is if the other end touch the fuse might help. It's nice to be able to mix-and-match devices and vehicles quickly.

IMG_4555_mid.png


IMG_4550_mid.png
 
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