Winch Suggestions

jps8460

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Seems like a call to comeup is in order. I can’t stand wireless winch controllers. Just sooo unnecessary and downright dangerous. I’ve had 3 really bad experiences with both Comeup and WARN winches’ wireless woes.

Edit: while I wholeheartedly disagree with wireless winch tech in recreational winches…. Comeup does make a darn good winch. Just wanted to specify that the wireless stuff is unnecessary and not worth the risk.
 
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DaveInDenver

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winches’ wireless garbage.
An interesting tidbit is the OEM for Superwinch is a company called Ningbo Lianda Winch, at least for the remote in the FCC database, and it looks like they use the 315 MHz ISM band, which is similar to the remote key fob that Toyota (and most cars) use. The Superwinch remote kit part number 2277 as one example (FCC ID is 2ASYP-LDWR-SW01) appears to use HOPERF CMT2219A chip, which has a 22-bit address. That's 4,194,304 unique addresses, so like with cars ends up with a lower chance of your fob opening someone else's car or garage door and minimal risk of interference from WiFi & Bluetooth. There's no pairing or anything, it's a one-way stream, low data rate, dedicated to the task. A much better approach.

I'm not sure about the merits of Warn vs Superwinch vs Ramsey vs Milemarker, which strikes me as Toyota vs Jeep vs Rover. Pick your color then learn about it, maintain it, drive the thing until you find its weaknesses and idiosyncrasies. In any case the wireless OEM for Superwinch I think made a better design decision. Probably boils down to mechanical engineers (who all I think are capable of making a fine gear box) not having much experience in the subject.

Warn: If you're listening, PM for account routing information for the design consultation.
 
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SaintAgatha

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At least I know where my winch controller is. 🤣🤣

Post the picture of me rubbing it in yesterday…..

Dan
1000019845.jpg


For anyone following our very public drama, I found my wired winch control in the back of my truck, *where I knew it would be,* and where it has been since @DomOfTheDead and @Yarn Cruiser 's wedding last October. I actually can't find my wireless controller, and that has been the case for a while, but I don't actually care because I don't like it, for exactly the reason of it potentially activating the winch when I don't want it to. I think it was a Bill Burke training that instilled that fear in me.

@DaveInDenver if you're talking about interference from another wireless winch controller, what's the range on these things? None of our nearest neighbors at home have winches (nor are their houses actually that close to ours up here) and the parking lot at work was empty except for my GX, my work RAV4, and one other RAV4/Subaru sized car whose owner was probably out walking a trail.
 

Yarn Cruiser

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View attachment 142621

For anyone following our very public drama, I found my wired winch control in the back of my truck, *where I knew it would be,* and where it has been since @DomOfTheDead and @Yarn Cruiser 's wedding last October. I actually can't find my wireless controller, and that has been the case for a while, but I don't actually care because I don't like it, for exactly the reason of it potentially activating the winch when I don't want it to. I think it was a Bill Burke training that instilled that fear in me.

@DaveInDenver if you're talking about interference from another wireless winch controller, what's the range on these things? None of our nearest neighbors at home have winches (nor are their houses actually that close to ours up here) and the parking lot at work was empty except for my GX, my work RAV4, and one other RAV4/Subaru sized car whose owner was probably out walking a trail.
Just know that @DomOfTheDead and I have 1. Drama about who’s working on my truck on the forum 😆😉. Pssst, thanks so much to my amazing, sexy, handsome, amazing husband who included in our vows to always be my pit crew 😆❤️. So don’t stress it. 2. His idea and my idea of organization are very different. Especially where he puts his tools and recovery equipment versus where I plan to put mine.
 

DomOfTheDead

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I don't know now that Superwinch was bought out by Westin. I'm sure you cannot go wrong with a $2000 made in the UK Husky no matter if a signature model or not. This was the 2009 catalog.

View attachment 142602
I jokingly asked Bill and Chris once why they both weren't rocking the BB signature models, I think Bills response was he wasn't that egotistical.
I looked for one out of curiosity a while ago as I like the worm gear design over planetary but used was the only way to find one and required a custom bumper to make room for these big beasts.

I have Warn VR on both trucks with wired and wireless potential but only use the wireless function when I am laying cable back on the drum. The remote only charges its battery during wired connection and wireless remote response is far less accurate when in this mode.
 
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SaintAgatha

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Seems like a call to comeup is in order. I can’t stand wireless winch controllers. Just sooo unnecessary and downright dangerous. I’ve had 3 really bad experiences with both Comeup and WARNing winches’ wireless garbage.
RBGX v2 front will have none of this wireless BS, haha.

When we built my truck I let @DanS make a lot of the decisions because I didn't know enough. (I'm definitely not saying anything is his fault, just emphasizing that I knew a lot less back then). Now, however, I have developed my own strong opinions, haha.
 

DaveInDenver

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@DaveInDenver if you're talking about interference from another wireless winch controller, what's the range on these things? None of our nearest neighbors at home have winches (nor are their houses actually that close to ours up here) and the parking lot at work was empty except for my GX, my work RAV4, and one other RAV4/Subaru sized car whose owner was probably out walking a trail.
Expected reliable operating range in your case is probably around 50 feet and expected safe from interference range is probably around ten times that, 500 feet from other sources (meaning if you're 500 feet from all known devices it should be safe).

Thing is you're thinking just about winch controllers that might have been around but that's not the problem. If it was just ComeUp winches the chances of them interacting will be in fact very small.

You didn't ask, but the rest of the story.

Using physical distance on these shared bands is not a reliable way to prevent interactions.

I'll try to use some analogies to describe it. First, think of RF like sound waves. If you have a speaker producing sound, just a tone. If you're right next to it it's loud but gets quieter as you move away. But sometimes you can be 50 feet away and barely hear it, like when there's other background noise. But other times you can be 100 feet away and still hear it clearly, like at night when you're camping. The sound level produced is measureably the same but for various reasons your perception changes.

Now introduce a second speaker making a sound. There's two possibilities, one is it's making the same tone and the second is it's making a different tone. When they're they same tone right next to each other you couldn't distinguish which is which. Move them away until you can and you'll find it'll take a lot more distance than if it's two different frequencies. But even if they are different tones right next to each other they still blend and might interact very badly to make a third tone. So in either case the only way to really have aboslutely no interaction is a lot of space between them (you know, like the distance you want to put between you and the kid with his boom-boom car stereo).

That's not possible with RF, there's just too much of it now. You can try distance to prevent interacting with each other. So like the boom-boom kid you have to close your windows and put a pillow over your ears to get some sleep. But that's not practical nor really an option to have absolute silence without 40 acres. Which works fine if you can pull it off but there's 350 million of us here now so broadly speaking it's not really possible to spread us all out. Well, technically it is. But not if we want open space. So most of us have to live on top of each other and figure out how to co-exist.

Thus, like the living in the city RF has to be able to not interfere as well as be compatible with each other. The FCC version of this is to say a device has to be tested to stay on it's frequency and produce the amount of power it's allowed. And all other devices have to come up with ways to live with this. So the car analogy, a device has to have a muffler or stereo that is only some volume and all the other cars have to have windows and bodies thick enough that if another is more than 25 feet away you won't normally hear it.

Back in RF let's say you have two-way radios. If everyone uses the same frequency (e.g channel) on purpose but you can share the airwaves as long as everyone is courteous, waits their turn, listens, etc. If you have someone who ignores the protocol and just keys and talks whenever they want then everyone suffers. You can put a mile between them and you. That works sometimes, doesn't sometimes. You can put 10 miles between you and them, this will almost always work. If you can put 100 miles then you will never hear each other. Now say someone is using a lot of power with a device that isn't well tuned. You could be using two different frequencies but still interact. This is spatter in the radio world, being so egregiously bad that you don't run in your lane anymore.

Still, lots of things have to share frequencies. You can have dozens of cell phones in a room and they are all operating on the same frequencies but only one phone will ring when a call comes in, right? That's because cell phones have kinds of protocols that allow them to share airwaves and operate next to each other without issues. They have embedded in their signal an identification.

Another example of this is your computer on WiFi. It knows how to talk only to another computer on the same WiFi right? All the devices in your house are using the same WiFi channel but when you send a document to the printer your TV doesn't turn on.

That's where these winch remotes fail IMO. They pick a set of frequencies that have a lot of users, which would be OK but they use off the shelf protocols that are comparatively weak in protecting against interaction with each other with a lot of chance of spatter and inter-channel noise from poorly designed devices.

The winch controllers are the same as you find in people's audio streaming devices or security cameras or the dongle that turns on your porch light or whatever. In your case, assuming it's not a fault of the controller itself (which is a possibility) you would have to not only look for other winches but anything operating on 433 MHz. It could be literally anything, it's impossible to know for sure. A failing overhead street lamp might be making noise that upsets it.

There are better ways to do it but they are expensive to design and build. Using a different, less crowded band is one option. Using a better handshaking protocol is another.

I feel since the risk of injury and property damage is high enough that I would think of more secure ways personally. You might think of this as the difference in having no password on your WiFi. You can share the airwaves with your neighbor and even use the same channel with different names but only if you each have a different SSID passwords can you really co-exist without risk of them knowing your bank account balances.

But when you really boil it down is being wireless solving a problem you really have over a wired remote? Maybe it is easier but the risk/benefit is not properly vetted out. If it must be wireless then they should IMO use a method appropriate. They use wireless remotes for overhead cranes but the way they do it is much more secure. But the marketing departments know no one will pay $$$$$ for a system like that, even though they probably should.

The way ComeUp did this isn't very secure. It's actually probably fine in the backcountry but in town there's just too much RF pollution, it's a problem waiting to bite us. I don't like them at all but I would definitely disable it when you're in town.

All of this assumes there isn't a more fundamental problem. If you have a crossed wire that's exposed shorting then it wouldn't matter. You need to do the basics of good routing, good workmanship, good crimps, insulation, tightened screws. That's paramount. This RF stuff is a secondary step. As a cause it is a big assumption I'm making. But I've seen enough of similar weird issues, like a lawn irrigation controller misbehaving that turned out to be certain brands of RC cars as a source.
 
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SaintAgatha

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Thanks for the detailed explanation. I do know some science, haha 🤓, so I was able to easily follow along.

Ok so it happened at home and at work, so what are the chances of interference twice at two completely different locations that are 10 miles apart (as the crow flies), including once while i was actively driving? I have been parking at my house without a problem since the winch was installed in 2021, but we do have new security cameras as of a few months ago. Who know what my neighbors are up to, and there are 7 of them within 500 feet. I have been parking at work since August with no problems, which is county property (but includes the rec center, so general public in and out constantly).

I feel like my options are (some more serious than others):

1. Possessed winch
2. Faulty wiring in the truck
3. 433 MHz interference from who knows where
4. Unintentional wireless winch remote (whereabouts unknown) activation
5. Some weirdo following me around and f*ing with me
6. Winch failure
 

DaveInDenver

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Yes, you ran it down pretty well @SaintAgatha.

The RF discussion is maybe a distraction. Not completely out of the realm of options but you have to make sure it's not a loose wire, something shifted and is shorting from vibration, maybe a wire wore through its insulation, a part is broken. Don't forget grounds. Like if a mounting bolt is loose you could be getting intermittent or inconsistent power to a circuit.

Work through things logically. Start at the source of power and follow circuits. Only if you've found no obvious fault start looking for RF gremlins.

But that said, it's not worthless to consider that a winch with a wireless controller enabled (this is key, was the wireless controller on?) that was working and had no obvious issues to start acting up could be a new something around, either yours or someone else. I get this all the time, both as an offender and a victim, with ham radio. A neighbor will buy a new TV and suddenly I have a new issue on certain radio bands. Or vice versa my neighbor will poke his head over the fence and tell me his TV changes channel when I'm transmitting.

I'm only suggesting that in this case that "something" could be off the wall, like a new set of Bluetooth headphones or Goodness knows what. You may not even realize it, maybe you bought something new that has Bluetooth or WiFi that's on even if you're not using it. These devices will poll and listen to try to pair themselves.

Say you just added a new smart watch or other thingajig or a new dash radio or solar controller or battery box that can be linked to an app. It'll still be on even if you don't pair your phone with it. It really does run the gamut.

It's a fault vector that is hard to really eliminate potential sources since we're surrounded with them. Having it happen in two places 10 miles apart does narrow it down considerably.

I'll say, though, that I don't believe in your #1. Everything has an explanation if you look hard enough.
 
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DomOfTheDead

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Thanks for the detailed explanation. I do know some science, haha 🤓, so I was able to easily follow along.

Ok so it happened at home and at work, so what are the chances of interference twice at two completely different locations that are 10 miles apart (as the crow flies), including once while i was actively driving? I have been parking at my house without a problem since the winch was installed in 2021, but we do have new security cameras as of a few months ago. Who know what my neighbors are up to, and there are 7 of them within 500 feet. I have been parking at work since August with no problems, which is county property (but includes the rec center, so general public in and out constantly).

I feel like my options are (some more serious than others):

1. Possessed winch
2. Faulty wiring in the truck
3. 433 MHz interference from who knows where
4. Unintentional wireless winch remote (whereabouts unknown) activation
5. Some weirdo following me around and f*ing with me
6. Winch failure
#1 could fall into multiple categories:
-Maximum Overdrive type of situation, a passing alien comet malevolently controlling your winch.
-Christine type of situation, possessed at the factory but this could also lead to self repair. Has it fixed itself previously?
-Skynet type of situation, here come the robot overlords. Does it run on phase plasma pulse in the 40w range?
 

nakman

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So this one time, I was at the Solid Axle Summit talking to a guy with a 40 camped down the way from us. Daniel was there with me @Inukshuk can back me up here... anyway we were looking at his nice V8 conversion, leaning in on the fenders, front bumper, all of a sudden his winch sparks to life and spools in for a second. Scared the bejeesus out of us... after some searching he found his wireless controller inside the truck, in the center console- so not in his pocket or anything, no I didn't put my hand on it accidentally, etc. It literally just fired up for no apparent reason.

And of course we both spent the net 10 minutes taking turns preaching the horrors of wireless winch controllers, which in hindsight probably wasn't all that necessary as the lesson was so obvious. But I'll never forget that. will probably bring this story up again someday too.
 

mcgaskins

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I have little to add other than I’ve had a Superwinch on a JK, an Engo on a 100, and a Comeup, Warn 9.5XPS, VR10S and VR12S on 200s. The only winch I had any trouble with going back 15 years was the relatively expensive Warn XPS where the clutch was extremely difficult to engage. No other issues across the board, so for people like me who only use their winches occasionally, I think it’s hard to go wrong with any big name brand that carries a warranty either through the manufacturer or store where you buy it. Personally, I am a fan of Warn VR12S I have right now because it was extremely affordable and has worked well in the 5 years I’ve had it.
 

allen.wrench

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So this one time, I was at the Solid Axle Summit talking to a guy with a 40 camped down the way from us. Daniel was there with me @Inukshuk can back me up here... anyway we were looking at his nice V8 conversion, leaning in on the fenders, front bumper, all of a sudden his winch sparks to life and spools in for a second. Scared the bejeesus out of us... after some searching he found his wireless controller inside the truck, in the center console- so not in his pocket or anything, no I didn't put my hand on it accidentally, etc. It literally just fired up for no apparent reason.

And of course we both spent the net 10 minutes taking turns preaching the horrors of wireless winch controllers, which in hindsight probably wasn't all that necessary as the lesson was so obvious. But I'll never forget that. will probably bring this story up again someday too.

Maybe the ghost of that wireless winch controller came back for vengeance and remotely detonated Long Cruiser's trans cooler??

Allen
 

SaintAgatha

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#1 could fall into multiple categories:
-Maximum Overdrive type of situation, a passing alien comet malevolently controlling your winch.
-Christine type of situation, possessed at the factory but this could also lead to self repair. Has it fixed itself previously?
-Skynet type of situation, here come the robot overlords. Does it run on phase plasma pulse in the 40w range?
I definitely forgot to consider: aliens intercept our SETI radio signals and respond by sending their own message back to ... some lady's winch. 👽
 

rover67

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So is there a way to disable the wireless feature on the comeup winches? I dont use mine. It seems like I should disable it in addition to just forgetting about where the wireless controller is and why I can't make it work the few time's I thought I wanted to. Also came here to say I am enjoying the back and forth with Dan and St. Agatha lol.
 

nakman

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So is there a way to disable the wireless feature on the comeup winches? I dont use mine. It seems like I should disable it in addition to just forgetting about where the wireless controller is and why I can't make it work the few time's I thought I wanted to. Also came here to say I am enjoying the back and forth with Dan and St. Agatha lol.
same!

I think the best method is to lose it in the garage somewhere and/or let the batteries die. But I'm not sure... if you run into @jps8460 next week maybe ask him? he seemed to have a lot of insider knowledge on these guys... also I remember getting beeped at every time I disconnected the battery, and that having something to do with the remote or something, I also seem to have forgotten how to deal with that. does yours beep at you?
 

DanS

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So is there a way to disable the wireless feature on the comeup winches? I dont use mine. It seems like I should disable it in addition to just forgetting about where the wireless controller is and why I can't make it work the few time's I thought I wanted to. Also came here to say I am enjoying the back and forth with Dan and St. Agatha lol.
When I talk to Comeup, I’m going to ask. The Comeup I have for the 60 might also have a wireless controller, which I will want to disable.

Only reason to use the wireless controller in RBGX is when your better half cleans it out and leaves the wired controller in the house, for some reason. 🤣

Dan
 

SaintAgatha

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does yours beep at you?
I actually forgot about this. It was actively beeping while I was taking 12 years to disconnect the battery. Beeping kind of slow at first, then steady, then quit beeping. I assume it finally drained the battery at that point.
 
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