Winch Suggestions

allen.wrench

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@allen.wrench, funny you ask. You'll be interested in seeing details of my whole winch feed. It's not so much a disconnect but a single high current tap. I put a matching Anderson connector on my jumper cables just like you are thinking. Also on my inverter. I just pull the winch, put on the jumper cables or hook up the inverter. Bonus is if the other end touch the fuse might help. It's nice to be able to mix-and-match devices and vehicles quickly.

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Heck yeah brother! That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Anything special to adding & using the Anderson connectors besides proper size selection & good crimping?

Definitely need to remember this topic when we're out in Dino Natl Monument in Aug/Sept :D

Allen
 

timmbuck2

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Allen Winch.....Allen Wench???
 

DaveInDenver

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How would you size the connector?
Size them the same as you would cables or fuses, by looking at the current charts for time or temperature.

The two sizes you're probably considering are SB175 and SB350. We'll start with the SB350.

Anderson rates these at 500A for UL and 325A for CSA. To achieve this requires 350 MCM cable with 105°C insulation. Wire size 350 MCM is two steps larger than 4/0 (212 MCM), MCM meaning kcmil or thousands of circular mil cross sectional area.

IOW 1000 circular mil is 1 kcmil or 1 MCM, so these work with very large cables. The smallest wire Anderson makes a terminal for in SB350 is 1/0 AWG and I'm not sure there's any reducing bushing that will let you go smaller than this.

Then look at the temperature rise charts to get an idea. Here again we have to make a decision on absolute maximum in theory vs practical averages and real world. If you want the no question then you have to assume 478 amps and thus 350 MCM with an SB350. But that's not possible nor does anyone actually do that, right?

So assume you want to use a SB350 still but with a more realistic 1/0 size cable and ~280 amps sustained. The chart would suggest this isn't possible but you can extrapolate and guesstimate. I'd think we're talking perhaps 50°C rise, so maybe 90°C if ambient is 40°C. That still less than 105°C of the insulation so the circuit as a whole is solid, no worries really under any conditions or load.

Screenshot 2025-04-14 at 12.59.47.png



So then the next question is what about 2 AWG or something like that? Warn supplies this size, maybe 1 AWG, I don't remember.

In any case now we have a problem in specifications. SB175 is too small on paper for this but the SB350 can't use 2 AWG without using a reducing bushing not specified by Anderson. So the tons of margin the SB350 gives isn't helpful since it's not possible to use practically.

But Anderson only rates the SB175 for 340 amps and that's with 2/0 AWG (a lot smaller than the 478A theoretical) and if we go smaller the chart starts to look worrisome. We might be out of luck.

Even using our 1/0 AWG with ~280A we're far off the chart to the point that trying to best guess will be a huge guess. If I was trying I'd think 280 amps would suggest +55°C to +60°C rise. And this with 1/0 AWG, smaller stuff would be way up there.

Screenshot 2025-04-14 at 12.58.41.png

So now we're probably beyond sharpening the pencil on an analysis to close this loop easily. Now we have to just make some assumptions and WAGs. First is to understand that the numbers given are steady state continuous current with no time limit.

So then one you can look at is the contact resistance. Anderson says with 6" of 1/0 AWG the mated contact resistance is 0.1 mΩ for the SB175 terminals.

Power is current squared times resistance. So 280^2 x (0.0001) = 7.84W. It would seem they are being very conservative in their ratings. That's fairly reasonable power to dissipate.

How does it compare to cables? 1/0 AWG pure copper is 0.000101277 Ω/foot, e.g. 0.11 mΩ/ft or 0.055 mΩ of that stated contact resistance, thus implying the contacts themselves are ~0.045mΩ. Now measuring contact resistance isn't an exact art. There's area of the mating surfaces, the force of the spring, how well the two surfaces mate (e.g. roughness, oxidation, etc.) and the shape and final cross section of the crimped area.

An aside, is why I constantly harp on good crimpers, if you over crimp, meaning squish the shape too much or in a non-uniform shape (e.g. like a center lump and two "wings") or you slice strands off you may not end up with specified contact resistance. The same thing can happen with the ring lugs on the ends, you can create a section of higher resistance (and a mechanical stress point potentially) if you over crimp them.

But be that as it may, basically what the datasheet is telling us that the SB175 terminal isn't adding too much significant resistance over the cable itself.

Another thing we can look to is that it's really not constant current. Anderson gives us a chart showing pulsed current, which is a different way of looking at duty cycle. So if we say the ~280 is sustained for perhaps 30 seconds we can see that temperature rise is lowered quite a bit. A 2 AWG cable in a SB175 under these conditions should fall right under the curve.

Screenshot 2025-04-14 at 12.58.20.png

So if you use a smaller cable the limitation is apparently the cable itself, not the connector/terminal. That doesn't mean it's zero but that we have more to worry about in my opinion making a potential compromise on using 2 AWG rather than 1/0 AWG over the whole circuit rather than just using an SB175 in this application.

FWIW I think the original sizes supplied with winches in these conditions is fine typically. If use larger like 1/0 that's better and you should. But remember that you also have to size up the cables after the control box for this to be a net benefit. If you run 1/0 to the box but leave 4 AWG for the motor leads after then you're still making a compromise overall.
 
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jps8460

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SaintAgatha

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Wow! Solenoid stuck? Whats the back story?
To be completely honest, beyond "my winch was possessed by the devil," I have no clue what happened.

As I was pulling out of the parking lot at work today, I heard a bad sound (probably the bumper crumpling). I turned back into the parking lot and heard an even worse sound (probably the fairlead breaking). I parked and went to the front of the truck and saw smoke coming from the wires to the motor on the winch. I disconnected the battery as fast as I could (which was not very fast because I had to first panic, call @DanS , dig tools out, rip an engine cover off, dig more tools out, convince myself that I wasn't going to electrocute myself, etc).

Oddly, last night after I parked in the driveway at home, I heard the winch spool rotate. I was on my front porch and neither I nor anyone else was trying to use the winch, but my neighbor was out working on the shed that he's building, so I assumed (wrongly, obviously) that it was him using something similar sounding to work on the shed. Now I know: if it sounds like my winch ... it's probably my winch, haha.
 
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DaveInDenver

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Wow, that's scary.

I'm a little surprised the rope didn't get sliced when the fairlead failed.

Is this a winch model with a wireless remote? It will be interesting if you can figure out what failed.

This is the sort of failure that you dread. There's no way to protect against with a fuse, the winch is doing what it's supposed to. Obviously it pulled to a very large force without a problem, which is its job. Sort of tilts towards a disconnect switch as the best option. You could have also thrown the clutch to free spool.
 

Hulk

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Yikes! That is scary.

My old M12000 is always connected to power, but it doesn't run until you hook up the wired remote control. I bet I use it less than once a year.
 

Crash

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This is the C4 Fabrication "Overland" bumper? C4 says this about the Overland bumper:
  • Fits most winches 8k-12k in size. Winches with the ability to relocate the electrical control box are recommended. Integrated control box winches may require some trimming of the grille support brackets to fit. (ComeUp, Smittybilt X20, Warn Zeon and VR series are all common winches that fit).
  • We recommend using winches with synthetic rope and a hawse style fairlead for the best fitment and functionality. Some roller fairleads may be too large to fit the recessed fairlead mounting plate in the bumper.
They sell these winches with the bumper, so these should be guaranteed to fit:
I've never heard of SCAR winches.

Keep in mind, a winch is a piece of equipment that gets used rarely. It is not essential to own one before you hit the trails.


4RunnerOverlandSeriesFrontBumper5thGen2014_-5_2000x.png
Yup, buy a fridge instead. You’ll get way more use out of it.
 

Crash

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Another bit of useless, my specialty, information. Bill Burke, Rising Sun’s go to expert on all things froading, has claimed that Warn was missing three letters from their name. Namely, ing. At one of our training sessions he had nothing good to say about their winches. Maybe he is financially connected to Superwinch but his experience with winches is nonpareil.
 

DanS

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Wow, that's scary.

I'm a little surprised the rope didn't get sliced when the fairlead failed.

Is this a winch model with a wireless remote? It will be interesting if you can figure out what failed.

This is the sort of failure that you dread. There's no way to protect against with a fuse, the winch is doing what it's supposed to. Obviously it pulled to a very large force without a problem, which is its job. Sort of tilts towards a disconnect switch as the best option. You could have also thrown the clutch to free spool.
It does have a wireless remote.

But, fun fact, I've been annoyed with @SaintAgatha winch controller storage for some time. Mostly because we aren't sure where they are. Both the wireless and the wired controller. See, she removed them from the truck to clean it, and I of course am a firm believer that you should never, ever remove the winch controller from a vehicle with a winch. Because a winch without a controller is absolutely useless. And in this case, it's super odd because it acted up in two different locations (home and work). So it's not like it could somehow be in the house and command a winch in that would cause this--because it also happened at work.

It's got to somehow be the solenoid sticking closed. So the thermal protection didn't work either. At least one of the terminals melted the insulation off of the terminal at the winch motor.

Haven't done much of figuring out what went wrong, but the solenoid pack is under the hood, so it's not even exposed to water. Very scary. But pretty impressive that Comeup built a winch that can bend the bumper shell and crack the fairlead like that. The winch cable is tight as a drum now. When we deal with it all, we will install a cut-out for sure.

Dan
 

60wag

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The power cable for my winch is rarely connected to the battery. I only hook it up when I think I might need it. It takes about a minute to do. Rather than a relay failure, my bigger fear is someone screwing with it when the truck is parked in a public place.
 

DaveInDenver

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@DanS my angle is to assume this is due to interference, either by another remote (not necessarily a ComeUp) or Bluetooth or a wireless network. Was it even enabled?

The FCC report for the device (should be FCC ID ICD-X96ICB, if my research is correct) has some proprietary info locked from view on the schematics. This is commonly done to prevent IP theft, although ironic it's a Taiwanese manufacturer doing it.


The contactor inside looks like a Albright but can't tell the manufacturer. It's marked DES-4012, which seems like a ComeUp part number maybe and probably not a genuine Albright, but who knows.

The real meat is the photos of the RF test they submitted. They didn't bother to obscure the chips inside. It's based on a Nordic nRF, specifically the nRF24L01. This is a chip that operates in the 2.4GHz ISM band, which will be along with Bluetooth and 2.4GHz WiFi. It uses a 5 byte pairing (what they call a pipe) code, so there's 32,768 possible combinations and they use these chips in all sorts of things, remote controls, audio streaming, automation. It's pretty ubiquitous.


The contactors and solenoid packs in winches are pretty robust. It requires two contacts to close to get the motor to run. It's not impossible but unlikely the heavy contactors fail. The control side is more vulnerable to a short or something, but in that case a low current fuse will usually open fail safe. In the real world the chances for hard wired winches to ghost power or latch up is fairly low. It happens, we've all seen possessed winches. But it's more likely that they just fail to work.

Now these wireless remotes. They scare me in this application, especially ones such as this that, frankly, are not using a hardened method but a standard one that is everywhere. I'm overly cautious but I just don't like that some kid's toy train could have the same pipe code as your winch.
 
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allen.wrench

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I'm laughing at *you* calling *me* disorganized. 🤣
You know I've heard disorganization is often a sign of genius minds.

Now these wireless remotes. They scare me in this application, especially ones such as this that, frankly, are not using a hardened method but a standard one that is everywhere. I'm overly cautious but I just don't like that some kid's toy train could have the same pipe code as your winch.
I definitely feel the concern on a wireless controlled winch. Of concerns with the HF Apex I bought, the wireless control is one of the top ones in my mind. I did appreciate they put a hard/physical on/off rocker switch on the winch's control box for receiving wireless commands. Not as ideal as having a more protected wireless communication protocol, but it's something.

All the same, when I get to installation I do plan on a disconnect and/or doing Anderson connections!

Allen
 

NotyourmomsWife

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Yikes! That is scary.

My old M12000 is always connected to power, but it doesn't run until you hook up the wired remote control. I bet I use it less than once a year.
This is how mine works too it’s a M8000. I think there was a recall on the newer warns with the wireless remote controls not 100% sure why but I feel like it had something to do with then randomly turning on like that.
 

KC Masterpiece

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There was an episode of 4wd 24/7 recently where they had a winch solenoid stick on and cause a big scare.

And another one recently where the synthetic line got wrapped around the driveshaft, tore it from the tcase, and actually got pulled into the 3rd member through the pinion seal. It's wild what can happen when you throw enough force behind something.

Jump to 16:50 and 22:10.


View: https://youtu.be/ep8OcMGyq3c?si=IiuOC5p42mrUdZVA
 
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