• RS MAY CLUB MEETING
    Hi Guest: Our monthly RS meeting on Wed. May 1st will be held at the Rooney Sports Complex. Details and directions are here. Early start time: 7:00 pm. to take advantage of daylight. We'll be talking ColoYota Expo and Cruise Moab.
    If you are eligible for club membership, please fill out an application in advance of the meeting and bring it with you.

so who's ordering a Rivian?

DaveInDenver

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Please, homeboy, grandma? The interior I posted was from a 1965 Cutlass 442 with the 4-speed stick, which was a neat sled and the fastest of the Cutlasses that year. It would run mid-13s just with headers and slicks.

oldsmobile-442-1965-2.jpg
 

Corbet

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A lot of Oldsmobiles in our family growing up. My Grandmother would only drive an Olds. She had a 1973 Cutlass and a 1979 Cutlass that I can remember. I’m sure a handful before that. Both got handed down. The 73 went to my uncle and the 79 was supposed to goto me but my sister ended up with it. Long story. My Dad had a 1964 442 that he wrecked then a couple cars later a 1972 Cutlass Supreme that got me home from the hospital. Mom said he wrecked that a couple times too. :doh:

A 60’s era 442 would rank high on my desired classic car list.
 

nakman

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Corbet's Gradma was a race car driver
She'd say el sob number one
With a Bocephus sticker
On her 442 she'd light 'em up
Just for fun

:drumsticks:
 

Jacket

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^Tim and Dave are awesome. I love that song.
 

nakman

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that is cool. not $24k cool, not to me at least, but still pretty awesome.
 

Corbet

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I’d love to have it but do t have that kind of money laying around right now. Plus I’d want a 4 on the floor if I were to step up to the plate for a classic muscle car. My uncle corrected me last night, dad’s 442 was a 1966 for the record.

Now back to your regular electric vehicle programming...
 

Caribou Sandstorm

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Portable solar isn't going to cut it. Consider if you use 180 kW-hr to go 400 miles then a 200 watt solar panel will take 900 hours of ideal sunlight to collect the energy. Current state of the art PV panels produce about 18 watts per square foot. Over a whole day a panel probably makes about half its rated output and at night its zero. So it'll probably be quite a lot of time using a little solar panel.

So drag along a 2 kW generator, which will still take 90 hours to return 180 kW.

Those Telsa Supercharger stations can deliver 72 kW, which costs about $0.22 per kW-hr. So a 400 mile trip that used 180 kW-hr costs $39.60 (that's probably equal to doing it in a car). To get a handle on that, if you have a single phase 240 V, 200 amp service to your home it can in total summing all the circuits deliver 48 kW. It would take you and your neighbor's full service running 100% for an hour to charge after a 400 mile trip. It would take I think two 50 A / 240 V circuits overnight to charge the 180 kW-hr battery.

For comparison a gallon of gasoline delivers about 33.5 kW-hr equivalent, which means a Telsa station works out to about $7.37 per gallon equivalent and a 5 gallon jerry can carries 167.5 kW-hr.

You see the clear increase in efficiency of the EV itself since there's so much lost to heat in internal combustion. That inefficiency, BTW, is just shifted to the power plants though...

Which also means you'll need to bring along something like 20 gallons to run the 2 kW generator you'd use to get back from the Dollhouse by next week due to the inefficiency of its gas engine.

Like I say, just generating the power directly using a hybrid engine and collecting regenerated braking power, solar, etc. to increase overall vehicle efficiency makes sense. A pure EV only is practical if you're never far from a grid-tied charging station.

They need a charging station in Hanksville!!!!

Or the Starbuck's in Green River.......
 

DaveInDenver

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I wonder what a battery the size of a Jerry Can would weigh and offer in extended range?
Lithium ion batteries deliver about 800 watt-hours per liter (volume) or 260 watt-hours per kilogram (mass).

So a 20 L jerry can sized battery will deliver 16 kW-hr and should weigh about 61.5 kg (136 lbs). Based on the stated range these cars get 2.2 miles per kW-hr (400 miles on a 180 kW-hr battery), so it'll drive the car about 35.5 miles.

Punching numbers that was interesting to me, since that it's not that much less range than a jerry can of gasoline will get a truck. Although a 20 L jerry can of gasoline will weigh about 1/4th as much (roughly 33 lbs). So it's a question of space vs weight. IOW 136 lbs of gasoline would be almost 22 gallons, a bit more than 80 liters.
 

Stuckinthe80s

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https://medium.com/@pdiwan/is-batte...on-for-public-transportation-evs-adb4ced74ff2

I remember seeing a special on this type of concept that a startup was working on. I can't find the exact group I remember but it used the same attach/release mechanisms that military aircraft use for ordnance.

It definitely seems like a viable option, in theory, but it would mean that the electric car companies would have to agree on the same battery design. Obviously you couldn't have a swap station on one of the trails but if there was one in Moab, you could probaby run trails all day on a fresh battery swap when you got into town and just swap each morning you're there.
 

Corbet

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Lithium ion batteries deliver about 800 watt-hours per liter (volume) or 260 watt-hours per kilogram (mass).

So a 20 L jerry can sized battery will deliver 16 kW-hr and should weigh about 61.5 kg (136 lbs). Based on the stated range these cars get 2.2 miles per kW-hr (400 miles on a 180 kW-hr battery), so it'll drive the car about 35.5 miles.

Punching numbers that was interesting to me, since that it's not that much less range than a jerry can of gasoline will get a truck. Although a 20 L jerry can of gasoline will weigh about 1/4th as much (roughly 33 lbs). So it's a question of space vs weight. IOW 136 lbs of gasoline would be almost 22 gallons, a bit more than 80 liters.

I'd have to consider beefing up the swing out carrier to hold the weight of 3 "cans". That's more distance than I had guessed (20 miles), so while not really appealing right now it could be a possibility in the future.
 

DaveInDenver

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I've wondered about battery swapping and I think the problem is the density. It's fairly easy to pump gas but imagine trying to swap 500 lbs of batteries every 125 miles. In that article you notice Tesla is tinkering with an under car mechanical system that does the work for you. The Indian example is using batteries for Tuk Tuks and motorbikes, so a 20 lb battery is going to carry the vehicle much further than in a full size SUV. It's an order of magnitude difference there.

Thinking about carrying 400 lbs in 3 spare batteries to get 100 miles. The alternative is to carry a generator and a jerry can of gasoline, which I think would weigh less combined with the downsize being it would take a few hours running the generator to recharge enough to do the 100 miles. At this point the technology just isn't there yet and there's only so much physics and chemistry left to optimize lithium ion cells.
 
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satchel

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I've always liked the idea of a small rotary engine, like the shoebox size stuff supposedly coming out, as a high power generator that can be swapped in. I haven't been a fan of hybrid cars before, cause I don't care to have to maintain an electric and gas engine, but if you could standardize the generator part across EV's, so that you could swap it to whatever car you needed the long range out of at the time, then you only have to maintain the 1 generator motor across your fleet. Probably all kinds of reasons that make it unrealistic to swap a small motor though, and standardizing is a whole other animal considering you can't even get standardized plugs.

Kind of like how mazda has been trying to go with an extender...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119111_mazda-announces-electric-lineup-rotary-range-extender
 

Stuckinthe80s

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I've wondered about battery swapping and I think the problem is the density. It's fairly easy to pump gas but imagine trying to swap 500 lbs of batteries every 125 miles. In that article you notice Tesla is tinkering with an under car mechanical system that does the work for you. The Indian example is using batteries for Tuk Tuks and motorbikes, so a 20 lb battery is going to carry the vehicle much further than in a full size SUV. It's an order of magnitude difference there.

Thinking about carrying 400 lbs in 3 spare batteries to get 100 miles. The alternative is to carry a generator and a jerry can of gasoline, which I think would weigh less combined with the downsize being it would take a few hours running the generator to recharge enough to do the 100 miles. At this point the technology just isn't there yet and there's only so much physics and chemistry left to optimize lithium ion cells.

Agreed. That's why I think GM is really the only company doing it "right" with current technology in the Volt. (pure electric with a built in generator for extended mileage) I haven't done any research to see how they are doing as far as reliability goes, but the concept is spot-on.
 

Stuckinthe80s

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I've always liked the idea of a small rotary engine, like the shoebox size stuff supposedly coming out, as a high power generator that can be swapped in. I haven't been a fan of hybrid cars before, cause I don't care to have to maintain an electric and gas engine, but if you could standardize the generator part across EV's, so that you could swap it to whatever car you needed the long range out of at the time, then you only have to maintain the 1 generator motor across your fleet. Probably all kinds of reasons that make it unrealistic to swap a small motor though, and standardizing is a whole other animal considering you can't even get standardized plugs.

Kind of like how mazda has been trying to go with an extender...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119111_mazda-announces-electric-lineup-rotary-range-extender

Sounds like Mazda is figuring it out as well.
 
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