Alternative synthetic rope?

[Romer]

There’s a lot to unpack here, but a note that Corbet made about traditional pulley blocks had me go back and check your link.

@Romer please please please please please please do not buy one of those death bagel items claimed to be better than pulley blocks (colloquially called “snatch blocks” and because Australians like to use that word for recoveries) for winching. They are a solution looking for a problem. Their most dangerous aspect, addressed with the totally disingenuous title of “rope retention pulley”, is the rope falling out of the groove under slack conditions, which it will do, and those little plastic fingers make it worse. When the rope falls out of the groove you get rope on rope and when you start winching again, having failed to notice that it fell out, you will instantly cut one of the lines. And don’t just say well I can put it back in the groove because sometimes when you’re winching, you’re in situations where it’s impossible to take tension off the rope because you are on the winch.
Second is that they increase friction, friction is one of the top enemies of synthetic because friction causes heat. There is a slight loss of efficiency, but that’s less important.

Not saying I am going this way. Many of the reviews I watched like these pulleys and say the rope falling out isn't a problem. They do agree that they are less efficient, but not really an issue like you said. I watched several from Australia who have a pretty good following.

I am wondering if your position is based on actual use and data or an opinion based on how it is constructed.

 

[Romer]

If I were to order a pulley block today it would be this one. https://www.masterpull.com/snatch-block-sbo30000-12/

That is much nicer than my heavy ARB Snatchblock, but that was inteended for steel cable

 

[DaveInDenver]

That is much nicer than my heavy ARB Snatchblock, but that was inteended for steel cable

Those side plates are slick (literally!). Looks like a nice pulley.


Is this the ARB you have?



If so, I have the same one. It's a heavy beast for sure, 5.3 lbs vs the Masterpull at 3.7 lbs. I like how they call it their ultralight pulley. But of course it was light relative to similar size pulleys way back 20 years ago.

It's rated higher WLL 9000 kg/20,000 lbs. The Masterpull is 6800 kg/13,000 lbs. The sheave is polymer on my ARB but it's delrin so it's fine for steel cable. Masterpull I think is nylon, which would obviously be why it's not compatible with steel cable.

 

[Corbet]

If one wanted a donut style snatch block I’d go this direction. But I’m with Daniel here and don’t like them, but I’ve never used one personally.

Recovery Ring Package

Note: Major update! New best in the industry package price. Because of ongoing supplier issues, I am now providing a larger custom made CNC 6061-T6 Aluminum Recovery Ring of my own design in this package along with including the newest updated soft shackle made from the highest quality materials...

brennans-garage.com

 

[DaveInDenver]

But I’m with Daniel here and don’t like them

Has anyone actually determined the validity of the friction question? What about debris and grit that might end up in the rope fibers?

Are we not bearings? We are Devo!

 

[Romer]

Those side plates are slick (literally!). Looks like a nice pulley.


Is this the ARB you have?



If so, I have the same one. It's a heavy beast for sure, 5.3 lbs vs the Masterpull at 3.7 lbs. I like how they call it their ultralight pulley. But of course it was light relative to similar size pulleys way back 20 years ago.

It's rated higher WLL 9000 kg/20,000 lbs. The Masterpull is 6800 kg/13,000 lbs. The sheave is polymer on my ARB but it's delrin so it's fine for steel cable. Masterpull I think is nylon, which would obviously be why it's not compatible with steel cable.

No mine is a real old one. Big and heavy

If one wanted a donut style snatch block I’d go this direction. But I’m with Daniel here and don’t like them, but I’ve never used one personally.

Recovery Ring Package

Note: Major update! New best in the industry package price. Because of ongoing supplier issues, I am now providing a larger custom made CNC 6061-T6 Aluminum Recovery Ring of my own design in this package along with including the newest updated soft shackle made from the highest quality materials...

brennans-garage.com

I likely won't go for the donut. Just wanted to know the data behind the opinion

This one looks interesting

It is light weight and beveled for soft shackles

Snatch Block - Heavy Duty Light-Weight Aluminum | Tactical Recovery Equipment

Snatch Block - Heavy Duty Light-Weight Aluminum. Lightest Snatch Block for Synthetic Winch Rope up to 7/16". Off Road Use Only.

www.tacticalrecoveryequipment.com

 

[Romer]

I almost forgot

I dealt with Todd the owner of Custom Splice. He had 88 feet on his 7/16" Samson Blue roll and he made me a deal, or I could have gotten the 100 ft as he just got a new roll. I saw lots of positive reviews on him in other forums.

https://customsplice.com/collections/amsteel-blue-synthetic-winch-rope

If you want something that says sold out, I would just email him. He was quick to respond to emails.

I went with the deal so got a new Amsteel Blue 7/16" line for about $300

 

[Inukshuk]

Not saying I am going this way. Many of the reviews I watched like these pulleys and say the rope falling out isn't a problem. They do agree that they are less efficient, but not really an issue like you said. I watched several from Australia who have a pretty good following.
I am wondering if your position is based on actual use and data or an opinion based on how it is constructed.

This issue has been beat to death here and the internet. At a certain point more questions are mental masturbation. I stand by my comments. I choose not to put any more time to explain or debate what I know.

 

[Romer]

This issue has been beat to death here and the internet. At a certain point more questions are mental masturbation. I stand by my comments. I choose not to put any more time to explain or debate what I know.

The only place I see on this forum is the thread you started https://risingsun4x4club.org/xf/threads/psa-advisory-about-recovery-rings-especially-this-one.34397/ Which would have been good to link here instead of your response above. This is supposed to be a welcome place were people can ask questions.

Reviews on the internet have a lot of positive reviews is why I thought worth asking about. Don't worry, I won't ask you about that again as I don't want you to get too much mental masturbation

 

[Inukshuk]

Glad you found the old thread.

 

[Romer]

Glad you found the old thread.

You have a lot of experiance and Knowledge. I am not dismissing that. Sometimes judgements can be made by looking at things based on data from similar products. It looks like the Factor 55 is different and they modified the design to address the main concern of slippage. Maybe its gimmiky and doesn't work. As an engineer, I wanted to look at this pulley as it looks like they addressed the concern. I am not saying you or Corbet are wrong or doubting your position, but there are reviews on the factor 55 pulley that are possitive

From a trusted member on Mud

I have a factor 55 pulley. The knock against them is that the line can come off the pulley easily. I've tested this theory, and allowing my line to totally slack I could never get the line to come off the pulley so I'm not convinced that is a real problem, at least for the Factor 55 pulley. The little rubber teeth really work.​

​

​

These guys demonstrate how to use it

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnz7OvJ2I7s


Then there is this review on Yakum which has the issues you mentioned and several others have been commented on it. This shows your concerns are real and supported by test data. As you said in your PSA, Yakum are unsafe and you shouldn't get one.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rWZqTcHqNM


Maybe the teeth in the Factor 55 are gimiky and dont work, but I could not find one post that stated so after several years of being in use. I only found mostly positive reviews of the Factor 55 which is why I started this discussion on their pulley. The common negative items were fricton causing heat and less efficient pull. That is why I felt it reasonable to to look into it.

I respect Daniel and Corbets opinion and wanted to show why I thought the Factor 55 question was worth pursuing and just not poking the bear

I have seen enough to know that I should have a snatch block as they generate less heat and are more efficient, but two reviews suggested having one of these in your kit besides a snatch block. I didn't see anyone recommend one instead of a snatch block.

One thing I feel is you should always feel free in this forum to ask questions to to look at products and understand others positions.

How about this, I will purchase a Factor 55 pulley IF and only if anyone wants to set up a test. I still plan on getting a new Snatchblock. The test to me is more engineering couristy if Factor 55 fixed the slippage problem with the teeth or its just a gimmick.

Per @Inukshuk words, I guess that is enough mental masturbation on this topic. Sorry for the diversion. I honestly am not trying the beat a dead horse, just learn something new.

Moving back to Synthetic line. I am impressed that Custom Splice already made my new winch line and shipped it after paying for it this morning. This thread and the discussion here-in helped me decide on the Amsteel Blue and the 7/16" line as an option.

If the club ever wants to do a winch line splice class, I will buy some more line to make an extension.

 

[Corbet]

Ultimately Ken I see it as any recovery tool is only as good as the user. All these products can work, some better than others and some with a higher risk than others.

I still don’t own a soft shackle. If I were new to the hobby I’d probably invest in them. But at this point I have a solid recovery kit that I’m very comfortable using. Swapping to soft shackles is not as simple as just changing them out. Every item with a radius has to be addressed. I’d have to rebuild my rear bumper as the recovery points are welded in. So my 80 will always have old fashioned D rings at some level. Same for my trailers. Maybe as I build out my 250 I go with the soft. Weight is something I’m really watching with this truck. On the 40 build I bet I spoil 150’ of rope on the 8274.

 

[Romer]

Thanks Corbet. That's a good view of it.

 

[Romer]

To close out my segment of this thread. I ordered 7/16" Samson Blue from Custom Splice. The owner called to discuss what ends I wanted. I ordered last Friday and they shipped it the same day. I recieved it today. I recommend them, great shop to work with.

https://customsplice.com/products/7-16-main-line-winch-rope-amsteel-blue?variant=41548241167

Thanks to the folks in this thread for leading me to that rope and size. I must admidt their being out of 3/8" also contributed to my selection I was leaning that way anyways.

I also replaced the fairlead with the one Slee recommended for my Bull Bar, the Slee Offset Hawse Fairlead https://sleeoffroad.com/products/sof1113/

I liked using the Ultra Hook so much on Argentine on my tacoma, I ordered one for the 200 as well



It was easy swapping lines, a lot easier than I thought it would be. I rubbed the drum down with emory cloth after getting the steel line off.

I did use a constrictor (Thanks @Inukshuk ) knot and also bolted the lug down. Made sure it was all snug and tight against the side of the drum before I slowly started to spool in

The bottom edge of the License plate is slightly exposed and I will have to watch it to see if It catches the rope. If so I will figure a way to raise it or use the Plate holder that moves from Slee

Looks like I will need to clean up the bumper area under the fiarlead

 

[Inukshuk]

I did use a constrictor (Thanks @Inukshuk ) knot and also bolted the lug down. Made sure it was all snug and tight against the side of the drum before I slowly started to spool in

Great.

It frustrates me to no end that companies use heat shrink on synthetic rope products.
Heat and abrasion/cuts are the only threats to synthetic line. As with other concepts - why do they do it!
The activation temperature of most heat shrink is higher than the critical temperature of amsteel blue!
Google: "what is activation temperature of heat shrink tubing?"
AI: "The activation temperature of heat shrink tubing typically ranges from 90°C to 120°C (194°F to 248°F) for most standard types. This is the temperature at which the tubing begins to shrink and conform to the shape of the object it surrounds. The exact temperature can vary depending on the specific material and thickness of the tubing."

TEMPERATURE
... High temperatures can reduce a rope’s strength and fatigue resistance. If temperatures exceed the limits shown in Table 2, special care should be taken to ensure the product is fit-for-purpose.
High temperatures can also be a more localized phenomenon as a result of the rope moving through equipment in the system, where heat is generated by friction. In order to minimize this heat generation, ropes with appropriate coefficient of friction (i.e. grip) should be chosen based on the needs of the system and/or application.
High temperatures can be generated when checking rope on hardware or running them over stuck or non-rolling sheaves or rollers. Each rope’s construction and fiber type will yield a different coefficient of friction (resistance to slipping) in a new or used state. It is important to understand the operational demands and take into account the size of the rope, construction, and fiber type to minimize localized heat buildup due to rope/hardware friction. Be aware of areas of heat buildup and take steps to minimize them.

Melting damage on AmSteel®Blue

The bottom edge of the License plate is slightly exposed and I will have to watch it to see if It catches the rope. If so I will figure a way to raise it or use the Plate holder that moves from Slee

Looks like I will need to clean up the bumper area under the fiarlead

Many good folding license plate mounts. I use this Smittybilt that clips on my roller fairlead.

It's unfortunate that otherwise great vendors sell hawse fairleads to mount into deeply set bumpers.
Deeply set bumpers should have rollers.
And yes, rollers are better for synthetic too due to friction. I have never seen a Hawse fail a synthetic line but I have seen damage.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Food for thought on the heat issue @Inukshuk.

From the Dyneema data sheet and website.

https://fibrxl.com/fibrxl-performance/fibers/dyneema/





From the 3M datasheet for their most basic single wall, 2:1 shrink polyolefin.


On paper using shrink tubing on Amsteel Blue (or similar) would be a concern but notice that "short duration" exposure to 145°C isn't considered an issue. Dyneema has favorable thermal conductivity and heat capacity properties, heat is moved quickly and dilutes readily. Time is everything and they don't define acceptable duration for their specs that I have ever found.

Dyneema is used for a lot of things where heat is a real issue. For example rappelling on a static line can generate a lot of heat so the climbing industry has done quite a bit of study. Should mention that you normally would not be using Amsteel Blue since it's too slick for normal belay and rap devices to work, so it's more of an emergency situation (using a Munter hitch) or haul rope. I also think using shrink tubing labels is not unusual when you're dealing with a lot of lines, like on a sail boat.

I'd be more concerned with the friction generated routinely running synthetic lines over hawse fairleads and pulley rings. A key point here is 70°C is an absolute, so if you're in Moab in the summer with an air temp of ~40°C (104°F) your rope will tolerate a 30°C rise due to whatever you're doing.

Ideally you would not expose it at all but done fast and immediately cooled, probably not doing much harm to put a thin wall, quick shrinking tube on it. Just don't dwell forever trying to get a perfectly complete recovery (shrink).

 

[Inukshuk]

Food for thought on the heat issue @Inukshuk.

100% and as always great data.

Like so many things I say to the manufacturers: why, why, why!

Have any of them have gone through the analysis in this thread. We do not know. My empirical experience with recovery gear manufacturers and representatives is they have not.

Does the person applying the heat have this data. Is their heat gun doing just what’s needed and not more. Or are they setting it at 1000° so it melts more quickly and they can do more per hour?

This is one of those things in the world that gets done without people really stopping to analyze it. People who hear the things we’re talking about in this thread already purchased expensive equipment are going to find the reasons why it might be ok.

Yeah, it might be OK. But it’s introducing an environmental condition, however, briefly, that is a known antipole to the material.

I know that nobody in this thread is advocating for heat shrink on synthetic rope. I know that what we are doing is talking about it to understand. Empirically I’ve never heard of equipment failing at heat shrink.

This is a great example of why we have safety factors in equipment. (Safety factor is the multiple of your load that the equipment is designed to handle. On a screw pin bow shackle if it has a 6 ton working load limit it’s going to have a 30 ton breaking strength. On 3/8 Dyneema rated to 17,600 pounds, after you do your resistance calculation you determine whether you’re within a comfortable safety factor.)

My opinion for the manufacturer side is vanity and lack of thinking. Heat shrink, death, bagels, and hawse fairleads all introduce heat to equipment that has as one of its primary degradation factors, heat. There are perfectly acceptable, reasonable, time-proven and easy to implement alternatives. Safe Xtract and a few others use a dip coating to protect rope eyes from abrasion. The same material could probably be applied where heat shrink is used. (hey and what about wrapping it with some of that nice self fusing silicone tape? Pulley blocks have been around forever and introduce zero heat to synthetic line. Roller fair leads are superior in every aspect, except they stick out a little further than hawse fairleads.

The data in this thread as me more resolved than ever against heat rink on synthetic rope.