Alternative synthetic rope?

[BritKLR]

Love this thread! Great info.

Since this conversation is about Synth Rope and its care, I'd be curious to get some feedback on this Winch Wrap I've been developing? Basically, it's designed to cover the rope on the drum and protect the rope from daily grim and UV, there by maximizing the life expectancy of the rope and be easily removable when the winch is needed. Comes in bright colors so it's easily visible.

Let me know what you think.

BTW RS is the first to see this before it goes on sale!

 

[DaveInDenver]

Love this thread! Great info.

Since this conversation is about Synth Rope and its care, I'd be curious to get some feedback on this Winch Wrap I've been developing? Basically, it's designed to cover the rope on the drum and protect the rope from daily grim and UV, there by maximizing the life expectancy of the rope and be easily removable when the winch is needed. Comes in bright colors so it's easily visible.

Let me know what you think.

BTW RS is the first to see this before it goes on sale!

I'm not sure there's a definitive answer here. It looks good for sure.

Thinking points I suppose might be to consider what problems you're trying to solve. Dyneema is not highly UV sensitive, but neither is it zero. Dyneema is woven from UHMWPE fibers and as a result is also highly chemical resistant. What rapidly degrades it is heat.

So take all the factors and stew them I think the trade-off question is whether the protection from UV is offset by what is essentially a blanket holding in heat. I'd make it light colored to reflect as much sunlight as possible for that.

A wrap isn't really needed to protect the rope from road salt or debris. Any moisture will also be held inside which could encourage mildew. But that's not going to hurt the rope. What I'd worry most here is holding moisture that encourages the drum to rust under the rope.

In my mind the greatest benefit to this is to prevent mechanical damage such as tools and parts being dropped on the rope.

My concern would be how warm it would get under there in the sun and close to the radiator. Dyneema should be kept below 70°C/158°F in long term storage but that number is not absolute go/no-go, generally the less heat you subject the rope to the better.

Another reason to wrap a winch line may be to prevent it snagging someone but that's not a problem with synthetic. There's nothing rough or poking out that will cut your hands.

You know, though, what came to my mind is whether a wrap on the drum like this might offer benefit. Insulating the first wrap from heat of the brake and motor could be useful. It would introduce a variable of getting that first wrap good and tight on the drum, which could easily negate any thermal benefit so I don't know if there's a practical solution there.

All in all I'm not sure it would solve a problem I have but I also don't think it's really hurting anything. Kind of seems to fall into the category of where to use abrasion sleeves. On one hand those prevent cuts but they also trap debris that can wear down the fibers, so neither 100% good or bad.

 

[BritKLR]

I'm not sure there's a definitive answer here. It looks good for sure.

Thinking points I suppose might be to consider what problems you're trying to solve. Dyneema is not highly UV sensitive, but neither is it zero. Dyneema is woven from UHMWPE fibers and as a result is also highly chemical resistant. What rapidly degrades it is heat.

So take all the factors and stew them I think the trade-off question is whether the protection from UV is offset by what is essentially a blanket holding in heat. I'd make it light colored to reflect as much sunlight as possible for that.

A wrap isn't really needed to protect the rope from road salt or debris. Any moisture will also be held inside which could encourage mildew. But that's not going to hurt the rope. What I'd worry most here is holding moisture that encourages the drum to rust under the rope.

In my mind the greatest benefit to this is to prevent mechanical damage such as tools and parts being dropped on the rope.

My concern would be how warm it would get under there in the sun and close to the radiator. Dyneema should be kept below 70°C/158°F in long term storage but that number is not absolute go/no-go, generally the less heat you subject the rope to the better.

Another reason to wrap a winch line may be to prevent it snagging someone but that's not a problem with synthetic. There's nothing rough or poking out that will cut your hands.

You know, though, what came to my mind is whether a wrap on the drum like this might offer benefit. Insulating the first wrap from heat of the brake and motor could be useful. It would introduce a variable of getting that first wrap good and tight on the drum, which could easily negate any thermal benefit so I don't know if there's a practical solution there.

All in all I'm not sure it would solve a problem I have but I also don't think it's really hurting anything. Kind of seems to fall into the category of where to use abrasion sleeves. On one hand those prevent cuts but they also trap debris that can wear down the fibers, so neither 100% good or bad.

Thanks Dave. Great feedback.

I’m at DIA grabbing a flight so I can’t go into detail but basically this wrap is quickly removed and replaced while operating the winch and doesn’t stay on so standard operating procedure following the use of the winch would let the winch cool prior to replacing it.



Since most winch users may use their winch once every couple of years this provides a level of rope protection from the daily elements versus just letting the rope be daily exposed to sun, rain, salt, road grit.

Generally speaking, the micro grit and grim that the rope is exposed to on a daily commute basis (plus winch use) is the potential killer if the line isn’t routinely cleaned. This wrap would help keep that micro grit and grim off the rope.

As for rope temp. Issues while covered I’ll do some temp studies and see what the numbers are.

I’d also be interested in seeing if any club members use their winch routinely and would be willing to test one of these for several months? It’s currently designed for my RhinoRide60’s 8274 but is adjustable for others. I simply don’t use the RR in the winter due to my tractor.

Lmk if someone is interested and we can talk.

Off to KC.

 

[Inukshuk]

@Corbet dared me to look him in the eye and criticize his winch set up face-to-face, not behind the safety of a keyboard .

I said sure but you gotta let me drive your new Land Cruiser.

 

[Corbet]

Little coffee and cruisers this morning.

 

[LARGEONE]

While we are on the subject of synthetic alternative…does anyone have any real life experience with these “bleepin J&&ps” ropes?

This one might need its own thread! Haha!

Freedom Winch Line | BleepinJeep

bleepinjeep.com

 

[Inukshuk]

While we are on the subject of synthetic alternative…does anyone have any real life experience with these “bleepin J&&ps” ropes?
This one might need its own thread! Haha!

Freedom Winch Line | BleepinJeep

bleepinjeep.com

Oh my. Lots of things I see him recommending that are unsafe. Receiver insert should never be used as an anchor and that hole diameter is definitely not a safe rope bend radius. On his examples, I could write many pages.

As far as the way his rope is deigned with multiple attachment points, hmmm. I'd need to know how the "freedom loops" are spliced. His MTS of 15,000 on 3/8 Dyneema is a de-rate of 2,600 (15%). I like that.

 

[LARGEONE]

I also noted some of his examples as things I would not do, but thought the rope idea was pretty cool. Interesting that he got the towing “king” (used a bit facetiously) to endorse it.

 

[DaveInDenver]

There are established methods to test these things.

Sampson, for example, specifies their rope MTS based on CI-1500 (Cordage Institute, it's an institute, so you know they are experts in expertology) and ISO-2307.

Basically the average breaking of 19,600 lbs and minimum breaking value of 17,600 for 3/8" Amsteel-Blue will be for at least 5 spliced samples they pulled to failure. For their tests Sampson seems to have used a stitched tuck bury, which should retain 100% of the rope strength.

There's no standard derating value. You can estimate a reduction if you use a different splice or knot but the industry accept method is to test your samples with a stated number of loading cycles. In climbing you have to assume the terminating figure-8 knot at your harness will reduce the system to at least 70% of the rope strength. A Brummel lock will also reduce strength compared to a simple long bury.

Same with abrasion protection, bending relief and eye radius. It's not some black magic, the rope manufacturer tells you what you have to do and that came from lots of testing.

There's nothing right or wrong with the concept of doing all those knots and splices and such in that jeep rope but the only way to know is to do the standard testing and see. You can't just guess and assign that rating. You'd really have to do all the iterations of connections, which would make a complicated tag to hang on it.

 

[LARGEONE]

Well one thing is for sure…that bleepin’ j&&p dude has definitely put that rope to legit real world testing (at least from the look/condition) of that rope!

Because I know that I tend to break chit, and I don’t always do the smartest things, I decided to get 75’ of Amsteel Blue 7/16” for my winch. Was about $200 total. Might be overkill, but after de-rating and the abuse I will likely put to it, I decided to go a little thicker and have some additional piece of mind.

Thanks for all of the discussion. Now I’ll have to figure out what ends to put on the rope.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Seriously Paul, you got 1/2" rope?

You can go too big for the winch and drum. These class winches were designed for 5/16" steel wire and that figures into the number of wraps you get on there and the pulling force it generates. You'll get fewer 1st layer wraps with a 1/2". The drum is 2.5" diameter, so about 8" in circumference, and about 9" wide.

That's why you don't need to even consider 7/16" until you get to a 15k class winch that is physically bigger. That's larger than the winch they put on the 2.5 ton payload M35... It has a 6" diameter drum that's 12" wide.

 

[LARGEONE]

Edited. 7/16

Your math assumes a rope in perfect condition. If I don’t like the way it spools I will make it my extension and get 3/8”.

 

[Inukshuk]

Seriously Paul, you got 1/2" rope?

You can go too big for the winch and drum. These class winches were designed for 5/16" steel wire and that figures into the number of wraps you get on there and the pulling force it generates. You'll get fewer 1st layer wraps with a 1/2". The drum is 2.5" diameter, so about 8" in circumference, and about 9" wide.

That's why you don't need to even consider 7/16" until you get to a 15k class winch that is physically bigger. That's larger than the winch they put on the 2.5 ton payload M35... It has a 6" diameter drum that's 12" wide.

His name is "Larger" - its a theme ;-)

Paul - happy to meet anytime and participate in splicing some loops. We'll get @DaveInDenver via video link to supervise us
I have Kevlar shears and bright green dyneema thread if you want to lock stitch

 

[DaveInDenver]

Edited. 7/16

Your math assumes a rope in perfect condition. If I don’t like the way it spools I will make it my extension and get 3/8”.

I know you're being tongue in cheek but there is, to no surprise, an inspection and retirement guide. Sampson suggests 25% yarn compromise as a retirement threshold. Of course this assumes you didn't select a WLL of 75% or more where nearly no yarn loss can be tolerated.

Point is Samson and all other Dyneema ropes manufacturers do not expect the rope to remain perfect over it's lifespan. In fact a rope is just as likely to need to be retired due to physical or heat damage as abrasion.

 

[LARGEONE]

Interesting. Thanks for posting this @DaveInDenver . I see people with furry rope all the time and often wondered how big of a deal it is? I will be sure to check out these pics some more when I can see them on a larger screen. I was debating on thickness and when Inprices the difference it was like $25. I actually did not consider the spooling or number of first wraps on the drum. Always appreciate your input and I’ll see how it goes?

@Inukshuk Daniel I may take you up on the sheers/tools. I’m leaning towards a stainless covered thimble/loop at this point but may change if I get one of the FlatlinkE ends? Haven’t decided whether I want to shell out another $150+? I do like the Flatlink and I like the larger opening in the Expert.

 

[DaveInDenver]

@jps8460 @Inukshuk @rover67 @AimCOTaco

Was thinking today, which is normally not something you want to hear. But it's about winch lines, so here we are and it seemed like a good topic for discussion.

I've got a 9000 lbs winch that came new with 100' of 5/16" 7x19 galvanized cable. Near as I can tell 5/16" wire rope is typically rated 9,800 lbs breaking. Where you find it listed for rigging they assign WLL of 1,960 lbs, which is what you'd expect for a 5:1 factor of safety.

I replaced it with standard 5/16" Dyneema Amsteel, which is rated 12,300 MTS. This was years ago when synthetic was newish and I didn't think much about it, like for like in size and a higher rating anyway.

Why is this insufficient and I need to be thinking about 3/8" Amsteel (roughly 2:1 WLL over my winch max stall) now?

Is it wear and aging from heat, cycling, abrasion? Derating from bends, splices and knots? Or have I missed some detail that 8000+ lbs winches now come with 3/8" regardless if it's steel or synthetic to provide a some amount of margin? I mean, if I had to guess even if you never spool out against the brake there's heat in the drum and motor that must surely be a concern.

Mainly I just don't like "Do this" without understanding what I was doing wrong before.

 

[On the RX]

My random guess is they buy a spool of one size and put it on everything they make.

 

[AimCOTaco]

Dave,

I don't have evidence or a statement from anybody in the industry that I can recall or reference on this. However, I'm going to say that due to the more compliant shape and general handling characteristics of synthetic line, larger diameters are preferred to reduce the tendency of the line to dive or burry itself into the spool when tensioned.
I think you were fine with 5/16 rope for strength but if the 3/8 handles better and you can still load a reasonable 50-75' or whatever length you prefer then why not go for the 3/8.

My 9.5K rated Comeup came with 3/8" synthetic rope. Great question.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Dave,

I don't have evidence or a statement from anybody in the industry that I can recall or reference on this. However, I'm going to say that due to the more compliant shape and general handling characteristics of synthetic line, larger diameters are preferred to reduce the tendency of the line to dive or burry itself into the spool when tensioned.
I think you were fine with 5/16 rope for strength but if the 3/8 handles better and you can still load a reasonable 50-75' or whatever length you prefer then why not go for the 3/8.

Yeah, I've gone to a short length so I'm on board with 3/8" like you're saying. Although even at a shorter length I wonder if there's still reason to stick with smaller diameter if it was to bunch up on one end in a loop sided pull, if you know what I mean.

This exercise is mainly to judge how the budget needs to be prioritized. It occurred to me my rope is pretty old so wondering if there's an aging aspect that I need to consider. Nothing I've read suggests HMPE should weaken under normal conditions. In fact cycling AmSteel Blue makes it stronger initially and with the way even the most dedicated of OHV'er uses it I doubt it will ever stop increasing in strength when the literature seems to suggest the knee is in the hundreds of thousands of cycles.



It's clearly exposure to UV, heat or chemicals and abrasion that ruin them. And even that there's not many chemicals that you're likely to encounter that are gonna do it (at least that aren't going to significant damage to your truck as well, sulfuric acid or alkali solutions apparently).

It's excessive heat and sharp edges we're worried about.

 

[Romer]

Bringing up an old thread

Because they say AMsteel Blue, can I feel confident it is the real deal? WARN M12 came with 125 ft of 3/8" steel, so looking at 100 ft 3/8" AMSteel Blue at $289

https://www.billet4x4.com/pro-winchrope.htm

They seem to have a real good price if it is genuine AMSteel Blue. It doesnt say anything about Dynema SK75 in material, but maybe that is redundant calling it AMsteel Blue????