Alternative synthetic rope?

[Inukshuk]

Because they say AMsteel Blue, can I feel confident it is the real deal?

Samson Rope Distribution | Rope Supplier & Manufacturer

Locate Samson Rope distributors and suppliers near you for high-quality ropes and hardware designed for various industrial applications.

www.samsonrope.com

The look, feel, and product mix at Billet 4x4 looks promising. Probably need to call.

 

[Corbet]

I just buy in bulk and splice at home. Some special tools make it easier but not required. I’ve cut with standard scissors but do have the splicing tool from factor 55. I’m sure someone would loan you one. That said the price there is good if all other specs are to your liking.

Samson AmSteel-Blue Rope

Samson AmSteel-Blue Rope Discover the future of maritime strength and flexibility with the Samson AmSteel-Blue Rope—the ultimate choice for boaters seeking a reliable and robust solution. Crafted from Dyneema HMPE fiber, this 12-Strand Single Braid rope combines extraordinary strength with...

www.go2marine.com

 

[Romer]

Thanks Corbet. I know there are lots of videos out there on how to do it. I would hate to screw it up and paying the extra here at this price would be worth it to me if it is a quality rope.

 

[Romer]

The best price I found on 3/8" Amsteel Blue Dynemma SK75 100 ft ($289) is from Billit 4x4, also known as OKoffroad.com. OK offroad.com has been around a long time and has many positive comments on mud. problem is they haven't returned my calls, texts or emails in a week. They are a legit company, maybe they are on vacation this week??

OKoffroad.com Accessories - Amsteel Blue Winchrope

OKoffroad.com - Winchrope

okoffroad.com

Another Amsteel Blue Dynemma SK75 option I am looking at is from Custom Splice 7/16" 80 ft for $319. They are out of the 3/8" and the longest line in 7/16 they have in stock is the 80 foot. They have a lot of positive reviews in the J$$P community. They are legit as well.
https://customsplice.com/products/7-16-main-line-winch-rope-amsteel-blue?variant=41552013583

The Warn M12 came with 125 ft of steel cable, but I don't think I have ever used more than 40 feet. I know less rope provides greater pulling power to start. Again, this is for converting my old WARN M12 to synthetic. I already verified I can loosen the bolts on the roller fairlead and ordered the right new fairlead from Slee.

Looking for input on if I should look for a 100ft line vs the 80ft

Curious how much winch line should remain on the drum to still be in a safe zone. I know going the entire length will likely pull the cable off. I was thinking 10 ft left on the spool?

I am thinking the 3/8" is sufficient (Corbets argument) yet the 7/16 provides additional margin (Daniel's argument). I think either would work for me. I am just trying to find the sweet spot in quality and price in getting Amsteel Blue Sk75 Dynemma winch line

An option I can purchase later is to get a 25-40 ft extension, soft shackle and pully (Factor 55) and move them in a bag between the two vehicles. The 200 and Tacoma both have winches, ARB Snatch Straps, Tree Savers and D shackles now. I like the basics in each because you never know when you might need them. With an 80 ft winch line, would you think 20 ft extension would be sufficient? I do have a snatch strap that could be used in a pinch if I am short or could that count as an extension and not worry about it?? I think that would work with the pulley and soft shackle??

Factor 55 has the pully and soft shackle on sale for $160 (is it really a sale) The shackle is their standard 10" 1/2" one I believe. I can get it for $144 from OK4WD with free shipping
https://ok4wd.com/rope-retention-pulley-rrp-soft-shackle-combo/?tw_source=google&tw_adid=&tw_campaign=20186390574&utm_term=&utm_campaign=[ICG]+-+PMax+-+Other+brands&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=6374043358&hsa_cam=20186390574&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20191274072&gbraid=0AAAAAD_MVJo89Y6goQNhc2u1AJW0aynlV&gclid=CjwKCAjwvO7CBhAqEiwA9q2YJQprFUtkdcVLyjgHNfr028gnrmaMfrVkt8SmJ2Ssa4SgUTABu2_TpxoCK-YQAvD_BwE

Thoughts?

 

[Inukshuk]

The Warn M12 came with 125 ft of steel cable, but I don't think I have ever used more than 40 feet. I know less rope provides greater pulling power to start. ....

Looking for input on if I should look for a 100ft line vs the 80ft

I have 70' on my drum. Then I have 50' and 20' extensions.
Less layers on the drum provides greater pulling power. Ideally we always start from the first layer.

Curious how much winch line should remain on the drum to still be in a safe zone. I know going the entire length will likely pull the cable off. I was thinking 10 ft left on the spool?

7 - 11 wraps.
Secure to drum with a constrictor knot. I can show you how. Its also in the safe Xtract app. A constrictor knot will actually hold the rope as opposed to the OE method of set screws through a crimped connector. Ultimately it is the friction of the wraps that hold the rope on.

I am thinking the 3/8" is sufficient (Corbets argument) yet the 7/16 provides additional margin (Daniel's argument). I think either would work for me. I am just trying to find the sweet spot in quality and price in getting Amsteel Blue Sk75 Dynemma winch line

Makes sense

An option I can purchase later is to get a 25-40 ft extension, soft shackle and pully (Factor 55) and move them in a bag between the two vehicles. The 200 and Tacoma both have winches, ARB Snatch Straps, Tree Savers and D shackles now. I like the basics in each because you never know when you might need them. With an 80 ft winch line, would you think 20 ft extension would be sufficient? I do have a snatch strap that could be used in a pinch if I am short or could that count as an extension and not worry about it?? I think that would work with the pulley and soft shackle??

100% and see my comment above about extensions.

Factor 55 has the pully and soft shackle on sale for $160 (is it really a sale) The shackle is their standard 10" 1/2" one I believe. I can get it for $144 from OK4WD with free shipping
https://ok4wd.com/rope-retention-pulley-rrp-soft-shackle-combo/?tw_source=google&tw_adid=&tw_campaign=20186390574&utm_term=&utm_campaign=[ICG]+-+PMax+-+Other+brands&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=6374043358&hsa_cam=20186390574&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20191274072&gbraid=0AAAAAD_MVJo89Y6goQNhc2u1AJW0aynlV&gclid=CjwKCAjwvO7CBhAqEiwA9q2YJQprFUtkdcVLyjgHNfr028gnrmaMfrVkt8SmJ2Ssa4SgUTABu2_TpxoCK-YQAvD_BwE

Thoughts?

Bagel Deli

 

[Corbet]

I’ve got 120’ of 3/8” on my M12000. Daniel and I have different opinions on what is best. If you go short have extensions. 3/8” synthetic offers more strength than the original steel rope. I also prefer a traditional style pulley block. I’ve bought from OK4wd a few times with no issue. My most recent winch line install is in my 80 build thread link below.

 

[DaveInDenver]

OK4wd a few times with no issue

Notice that OK4WD (in Stewartsville, New Jersey) is a wholly different company than OKoffroad (in Tulsa, Oklahoma). I'm sure both are fine.

I’ve got 120’ of 3/8” on my M12000. Daniel and I have different opinions on what is best. If you go short have extensions.

This isn't so much a matter of opinion as it's physics. It's convenient to just carry all your rope on the spool but there's no question you are giving up pulling power using the 3rd, 4th layer.

I have about 65' on the winch and two extensions of 25' and 40' personally.

The only downside to short lengths is the continuous length you can pull is shorter. But in use this isn't a problem.

The XD9000 I have:


So under any decent size load my motor gets hot before I have pulled all the short length I have. Even at 2000 lbs I'd take almost 6 minutes to pull a 100' foot line in, figuring about 15 feet is still on the drum. The flip side is since the winch is working more efficiently it's pulling the length I have faster most of the time, so the time to pull could be 1/2 as long.

Keeping in mind that the amount of force on the line isn't the same as the amount of work the motor is doing. Those line pull ratings are 1st layer numbers. The pull by layer is how much force you get with the motor doing 100% work (the equivalent of 9000 lbs, e.g. 478 amps) but with the efficiency loss of the rope being farther from the drum.

Keeping two layers on the drum gets you the most work from the least amount of energy (and motor heating). Also, a short length that you have to set up a couple times gives your motor some cool down, which helps with duty cycle, too.

It's a pretty specific type of recovery where you'd need to actually pull a long rope continuously and even there we're talking 50 feet, it's not as though we have 600 feet on a ship winch or anything. You need extensions usually anyway. Where the extra length is nice is using a block to double your pull, so if you're doing that routinely then I'd be totally hip to the argument of keeping a longer length on the drum.

 

[Romer]

Notice that OK4WD (in Stewartsville, New Jersey) is a wholly different company than OKoffroad (in Tulsa, Oklahoma). I'm sure both are fine.

Thanks Dave. I listed both companies above, one forthe winch line and the other for the pulley and soft shackle

 

[DaveInDenver]

Thanks Dave. I listed both companies above, one forthe winch line and the other for the pulley and soft shackle

One concerning thing is the OKoffroad website still only says copyright 2024. They seem like a more local, family type company so perhaps they haven't the time to update it is all. When a website gets stale I start to wonder about putting through orders without a call first.

Edit to add:
Just noticed you asked about using a dynamic rope or strap for a winch extension. If you have no other choice you might do what you have to but normally you would not want to use them like that. They're going to stretch under load and this stored energy is what you want to avoid.

You want predictable forces in the system and when the winch stops during a recovery that everything stops immediately. If you have a dynamic strap under load things can keep moving or start moving when you don't want.

 

[Inukshuk]

There’s a lot to unpack here, but a note that Corbet made about traditional pulley blocks had me go back and check your link.

@Romer please please please please please please do not buy one of those death bagel items claimed to be better than pulley blocks (colloquially called “snatch blocks” and because Australians like to use that word for recoveries) for winching. They are a solution looking for a problem. Their most dangerous aspect, addressed with the totally disingenuous title of “rope retention pulley”, is the rope falling out of the groove under slack conditions, which it will do, and those little plastic fingers make it worse. When the rope falls out of the groove you get rope on rope and when you start winching again, having failed to notice that it fell out, you will instantly cut one of the lines. And don’t just say well I can put it back in the groove because sometimes when you’re winching, you’re in situations where it’s impossible to take tension off the rope because you are on the winch.
Second is that they increase friction, friction is one of the top enemies of synthetic because friction causes heat. There is a slight loss of efficiency, but that’s less important.

 

[Inukshuk]

What’s really funny as I wrote bagel deli without realizing you had linked a death bagel

 

[Inukshuk]

Keeping two layers on the drum gets you the most work from the least amount of energy (and motor heating).

Best practice: always go to the first layer. Period.
Sometimes you can’t so that’s where knowledge is king on why we do things the way we do them.
Sounds like you would really enjoy doing one of Matt Balazs recovery classes. I could teach you all the same stuff, but I know you’d argue with me more. Like a husband teaching a wife to ski.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Best practice: always go to the first layer. Period.
Sometimes you can’t so that’s where knowledge is king on why we do things the way we do them.
Sounds like you would really enjoy doing one of Matt Balazs recovery classes. I could teach you all the same stuff, but I know you’d argue with me more. Like a husband teaching a wife to ski.

I apologize, what I said is confusing. I meant storing (keeping) two (meaning fewer) layers, not using two layers. Didn't mean to sound as though I am countering your absolutely correct point.

Go ahead, add that to your signature, too, if you must.

 

[Inukshuk]

As far as Corbet’s comment about rope length on spool and opinion, he’s right. In the context of the discussion that we had in another thread it’s about opinion and how the winch is predominantly used. He’s doing a lot of relatively light pulls moving timber and he has a lot of experience.

 

[Inukshuk]

I apologize, what I said is confusing. I meant storing two (meaning fewer) layers, not using two layers. Didn't mean to sound as though I am countering your absolutely correct point.

Oh interesting. How does that equate in length? Seems awfully short.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Oh interesting. How does that equate in length? Seems awfully short.

Note that I'm still using 5/16" on a 2.5" x 10" drum.

I've not taken the time to mark my rope to know exactly per layer lengths and if I'm ending up with the 32 turns the numbers say I should. But by the my-armspan-is-six-feet ruler I want to say (it's been a while) I have about 24' on the first layer and 30' on my second. I usually end up with around 5 or so turns of rope on the 3rd layer when I take the time to spool it carefully.

FWIW, the drum on my winch is approximately 15-3/4" around at the bottom and should be about 18" around with one layer of 5/16" rope on it.

I'll have to pull it and check now. It's literally been 3 weeks since I even drove my truck and that was just to Palisade for the bluegrass festival.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Alright, pull my rope. ;-)

From the thimble to the Stop Here mark I have 11 arm lengths, so must be 65' of usable length I intended, not total length. It seems I have ~75' of rope. Which adds up. I have a 25' extension, the cut I made from my original 100' length. Duh.



From the white tape stop to the drum is I'd guess 5 or so feet plus 4 wraps still on the drum so it appears I wanted to keep I'm guessing 10 wraps. I normally stop unspooling when the white tape shows at the fairlead. The yellow tape is the tail of the rope. I'll have about 1/2 the drum for 1st layer pull.



Spooling lazily I got two and a half layers.

2.5ish.

It's a very badly spooled 2.5 layers. I gotta pull the truck to a dumpster or something. Walking the rope in never works for me, I always end up with gaps. I do not like being unable to really see dark colored rope in my ARB.

Two layers should have a circumference of 19.6" ideally. So that's pretty close, calculator says it should be 9.8' for 6 wraps and I have I'm pretty sure 12' (maybe 10', I dunno) of tubular webbing for the guard.

One thing is for sure, I need to be much more conscientious about my workmanship on spooling.

 

[rover67]

One thing i have enjoyed about having a shorter length on the drum is I can be a bit lazy about spooling since theres space... in other words I dont have to worry about it stacking too high on one side like I would if I had a full drum of rope to wind up. When I go to use it it mostly all comes off so I unwrap the mess as a matter of course.

 

[KC Masterpiece]

I am trying to support our local colorado growers and plan to switch to hemp for all my winch lines. Its a good natural alternative to dyneema.

 

[Corbet]

As far as Corbet’s comment about rope length on spool and opinion, he’s right. In the context of the discussion that we had in another thread it’s about opinion and how the winch is predominantly used. He’s doing a lot of relatively light pulls moving timber and he has a lot of experience.

Since putting a new rope on my winch I’ve quit performing logging duties with it. I’m honestly really impressed with the abuse I put on my last synthetic rope dragging it through the mud pulling trees uphill to the truck for firewood. Bridger really enjoyed running it when he was little. Now he is big and I just make him load the wood he old fashioned way.

But I still prefer maxing out my winch rope length. Because as I’ve said before…


The 12K rarely stalls out and I don’t like having to re-rig every 40’ of pull. In 15 years I’ve only stalled it out twice. Once on a snow run. Stalled with a snatch bock. Nearly pulled a 10” diameter tree out of the ground in the process. The other was an uphill pull with the m101a fully loaded with firewood. So let’s say 11000lb truck/trailer combo. It got hot and stalled after over 100’ of pulling. I was over 200’ to the nearest anchor and even had to resort to using my snatch strap as an extension in addition to the 75’ proper extension. Middle of a thunderstorm, side hilling in the mud. It was a miserable solo operation. Had to put the Maxtrax under the trailer to keep it from sinking.

I’m not arguing the physics. A shorter rope will pull harder as there are less layers. I’ve just found in “my” real world experience a Warn 12K is generally up to the task without worrying about rope layers. And having all the rope I need on the spool most of the time is more convenient.

If I were to order a pulley block today it would be this one. https://www.masterpull.com/snatch-block-sbo30000-12/