You can do a search on MUD for instructions on how to tune these carbs for best idle. I should have that thread bookmarked but I don't yet. You really just need a vacuum gauge and a tachometer. To get the exact right jet settings you'll need the wide band.
Trigger Pulled
- Thread starter spectre6000
- Start date
Thanks, but the only one of those photos I took is the one of me with the mask...
I have an automotive multimeter with a tach function. No vacuum gauge though (that was a borrowed piece of kit). And now that I think about it, without a selection of jets to swap around, a wide band doesn't actually do me a whole lot of good does it... Additionally, depending on the specific wide band setup it may not even be all that useful or accurate without a sensor bung in the header... Really didn't think that through...
Looking at SOR's site, it really doesn't look like there's much in the way of jets available for tuning even if I wanted to! Is that really the case, or is that just more fuel for the diesel swap fire?
I have an automotive multimeter with a tach function. No vacuum gauge though (that was a borrowed piece of kit). And now that I think about it, without a selection of jets to swap around, a wide band doesn't actually do me a whole lot of good does it... Additionally, depending on the specific wide band setup it may not even be all that useful or accurate without a sensor bung in the header... Really didn't think that through...
Looking at SOR's site, it really doesn't look like there's much in the way of jets available for tuning even if I wanted to! Is that really the case, or is that just more fuel for the diesel swap fire?
rover67
Rising Sun Member
you can get some numbers by putting the sensor in the tail pipe. that is assuming you don't have any exhaust leaks. welding on a bung is best. I think i have a few spares.
I have a vacuum gauge too.
I have a vacuum gauge too.
Marco, wanna help a cruiser newb with a carb set up? 
That is, after I get the fuel pump situation taken care of, get the timing set and valves adjusted, get that vacuum leak tracked down and rectified, and get whatever else sorted out that crops up requiring sorting...
Speaking of, who is at what elevation running what jets in what carb with what engine? I have a 1.5F rock stock (though the jet set doesn't seem to be stock, nor does it make a whole lot of sense), and I've read through the various jetting threads on this and other forums, but there generally isn't enough information to be all that useful...
Also, where are people getting jets? I'm half tempted to run down to Jim's and buy all of his 2 barrel carb cores just for the jets... $25/each and could probably be talked down a bit if I bought a bunch of them...
That is, after I get the fuel pump situation taken care of, get the timing set and valves adjusted, get that vacuum leak tracked down and rectified, and get whatever else sorted out that crops up requiring sorting...Speaking of, who is at what elevation running what jets in what carb with what engine? I have a 1.5F rock stock (though the jet set doesn't seem to be stock, nor does it make a whole lot of sense), and I've read through the various jetting threads on this and other forums, but there generally isn't enough information to be all that useful...
Also, where are people getting jets? I'm half tempted to run down to Jim's and buy all of his 2 barrel carb cores just for the jets... $25/each and could probably be talked down a bit if I bought a bunch of them...
When I broke the carb down, it had 55/80 bleeds (I think I keep seeing these referred to as "slows"), 20/180 primary/secondary mains, and 55/114 in the plugs on reserve. I didn't take note of the accelerator pump/power jet for some reason...
That jetting setup strikes me on the surface as pretty messed up between the mains and the jets in the plugs. Having a larger main on reserve than in action when at altitude makes sense, but then the secondary has larger jets in action than on reserve... Never mind that neither of the double digit jets (55/20) make sense in context with what I'm seeing others run... I think they're power jets, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Any ideas what was going on there? Am I the crazy one?
Presently I have the same 55/80 primary/secondary bleeds. 114/180 primary/secondary mains. I still didn't take note of what I had for the power/accelerator pump jet. Then I have 55 and 20 in the plugs...
That jetting setup strikes me on the surface as pretty messed up between the mains and the jets in the plugs. Having a larger main on reserve than in action when at altitude makes sense, but then the secondary has larger jets in action than on reserve... Never mind that neither of the double digit jets (55/20) make sense in context with what I'm seeing others run... I think they're power jets, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Any ideas what was going on there? Am I the crazy one?
Presently I have the same 55/80 primary/secondary bleeds. 114/180 primary/secondary mains. I still didn't take note of what I had for the power/accelerator pump jet. Then I have 55 and 20 in the plugs...
I don't think you're the crazy one. Sounds like you put it back together a little more reasonably.
My '78 carb on my '77 2F has:
1st Main Jet: 136 (1.36mm)
2nd Main Jet: 171 (1.71mm)
1st Slow Jet: 75 (0.75mm)
2nd Slow Jet: 80 (0.80mm)
Power Valve: 80 (0.80mm)
From Moab to Argentine Pass it's never skipped a beat. Problem is it's hard to compare because every year just about was different. See here:
http://www.sor.com/sor/cat042d.tam
We had a discussion about jet sizes a couple years ago here:
http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=15074
I'll try to find what Randy posted about what he used in the Blue Mule (1974 F.5 engine). Personally I'm not sure it's worth getting down to the gnat's a** on this because we're talking about tractor motors here, and because we change elevation so much. A typical trail run might have you changing 5,000 feet of elevation or more in a day. I might play with mine a bit but honestly it runs fine the way it is and the plugs are fine, even with a different model year carb on it.
Okay, check out this post too from Randy and Ricardo:
http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?p=175380&highlight=jet#post175380
My '78 carb on my '77 2F has:
1st Main Jet: 136 (1.36mm)
2nd Main Jet: 171 (1.71mm)
1st Slow Jet: 75 (0.75mm)
2nd Slow Jet: 80 (0.80mm)
Power Valve: 80 (0.80mm)
From Moab to Argentine Pass it's never skipped a beat. Problem is it's hard to compare because every year just about was different. See here:
http://www.sor.com/sor/cat042d.tam
We had a discussion about jet sizes a couple years ago here:
http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=15074
I'll try to find what Randy posted about what he used in the Blue Mule (1974 F.5 engine). Personally I'm not sure it's worth getting down to the gnat's a** on this because we're talking about tractor motors here, and because we change elevation so much. A typical trail run might have you changing 5,000 feet of elevation or more in a day. I might play with mine a bit but honestly it runs fine the way it is and the plugs are fine, even with a different model year carb on it.
Okay, check out this post too from Randy and Ricardo:
http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?p=175380&highlight=jet#post175380
At least I'm not the crazy one. I'm guessing the plug spares are power jets... Weird.
It's November 8th, 1973.
A little slightly off topic update: new fuel pump in. Wrong inlet drilled, runs it right into the oil filter mount. Off to go see what I can find in the way of an angled fitting... It's always something. Ugh...
Look! I made a photo!
It's November 8th, 1973.
A little slightly off topic update: new fuel pump in. Wrong inlet drilled, runs it right into the oil filter mount. Off to go see what I can find in the way of an angled fitting... It's always something. Ugh...
Look! I made a photo!
RicardoJM
Hard Core 4+
RicardoJM
Hard Core 4+
I'm trying to keep up with the thread and it sounds like you are on the right path. A very useful item for you would be the F Engine Manual. I have one in PDF version that is just under 50k, shoot me your email address.
Chapter 2 of the FSM is dedicated to Engine Tune up and the following snippets of specifications are something I have not seen you have yet.
The carb tuning process is pretty straight forward. This link describes in pretty well. The goal is obtaining the highest vaccum from the engine at idle by adjusting idle mixture, RPM and timing. I've got all the equipment and can also give you a hand when you sort out the fuel issues.
Regarding jets, I have not found a source to by new jets. Pulling carb jets from Aisan carbs will not always work. In the DD38 carb, the primary jet sizes are very different size from what you would pull out of other Aisan carbs - been there done that. The FSM has a chart indicating that these came from the factory with the following jets.
The FSM is mum about slow jet sizes and indicates the need to reference another document (I've never found it) for USA details and it also indicates that at atlitudes above 6,600 feet the 108 should be in the primary and the 080 should be in the power jet.
All that said, I am running the following jets for my F.5 engine:
I've tried 112, 116, 118 in the Primary and my "sweet" jet is 114. The jets work just fine everywhere I drive. Perhaps at high altitude I may be running just a tad rich, but I'm not driving at 10K+ feet often enough to be concerned.
If I'm tracking correctly, you installed the following jets in your rebuild:
The 20 jet does sound confusing, but I think under the scrutiny of a magnafying glass it will be a 200. The 55 is consistent with the size of a power valve jet.
The most difficult jets to find are Primary and Secondary; and on those I think you are in good shape. I'm pretty sure I will have a smaller slow jet to replace the 80. In my research, the Power Valve jet is not as critical for tuning. IIRC at some point I read JimC indicate you cannot get too big on the Power Valve. I did rebuild a DD38 that was missing the Power Valve and while the carb did need to be rebuilt (varnish build up from lack of use) the owner indicated that it ran great prior to getting the varnish build up from lack of use.
Chapter 2 of the FSM is dedicated to Engine Tune up and the following snippets of specifications are something I have not seen you have yet.
Distributor - point gap to .016" ~ .020"
Dwell - did not find it noted
Timing - BB to pointer is 7 DBTC, you engine will likely run best with more advance.
Plugs gapped to .028" ~ 0.031"
Valves .014" on Exhaust .008" on Intake
Idle RPM 650-700, High Idle did not find but IIRC it is 1800
Compression - 150 at sea level - need to adjust for altitude
Dwell - did not find it noted
Timing - BB to pointer is 7 DBTC, you engine will likely run best with more advance.
Plugs gapped to .028" ~ 0.031"
Valves .014" on Exhaust .008" on Intake
Idle RPM 650-700, High Idle did not find but IIRC it is 1800
Compression - 150 at sea level - need to adjust for altitude
The carb tuning process is pretty straight forward. This link describes in pretty well. The goal is obtaining the highest vaccum from the engine at idle by adjusting idle mixture, RPM and timing. I've got all the equipment and can also give you a hand when you sort out the fuel issues.
Regarding jets, I have not found a source to by new jets. Pulling carb jets from Aisan carbs will not always work. In the DD38 carb, the primary jet sizes are very different size from what you would pull out of other Aisan carbs - been there done that. The FSM has a chart indicating that these came from the factory with the following jets.
112 Primary in the carb and 108 in the plug
200 Secondary in the carb
090 Power jet in the carb and 080 in the plug
200 Secondary in the carb
090 Power jet in the carb and 080 in the plug
The FSM is mum about slow jet sizes and indicates the need to reference another document (I've never found it) for USA details and it also indicates that at atlitudes above 6,600 feet the 108 should be in the primary and the 080 should be in the power jet.
All that said, I am running the following jets for my F.5 engine:
114 - Primary
180 - Secondary
60 - Power valve
50 - in both slow jets
180 - Secondary
60 - Power valve
50 - in both slow jets
I've tried 112, 116, 118 in the Primary and my "sweet" jet is 114. The jets work just fine everywhere I drive. Perhaps at high altitude I may be running just a tad rich, but I'm not driving at 10K+ feet often enough to be concerned.
If I'm tracking correctly, you installed the following jets in your rebuild:
114 - Primary
180 - Secondary
UNK - Power Valve
55 - Slow Jet
80 - Slow Jet
180 - Secondary
UNK - Power Valve
55 - Slow Jet
80 - Slow Jet
The 20 jet does sound confusing, but I think under the scrutiny of a magnafying glass it will be a 200. The 55 is consistent with the size of a power valve jet.
The most difficult jets to find are Primary and Secondary; and on those I think you are in good shape. I'm pretty sure I will have a smaller slow jet to replace the 80. In my research, the Power Valve jet is not as critical for tuning. IIRC at some point I read JimC indicate you cannot get too big on the Power Valve. I did rebuild a DD38 that was missing the Power Valve and while the carb did need to be rebuilt (varnish build up from lack of use) the owner indicated that it ran great prior to getting the varnish build up from lack of use.
Move the one over from your old pump.
That is the one from the old pump. The new pump inlet is clocked wrong. I think it's for a 1F without the oil filter. After running around all day trying to figure out how to make the thing work, I just took it back. I'll order one online and make sure it's correct.
RicardoJM, PM en route.
Manuals rec'd. Thanks, Ricardo!
RicardoJM
Hard Core 4+
cbmontgo
Hard Core 4+
As you probably know now, Ricardo is a great source of knowledge/info when it comes to these carbs (and damn near everything else too).
I'm here for knowledge and camaraderie. Das Klub is one of the few things I miss about Dallas, and I'm hoping to find a similar group here. Sabrina @ RMC suggested checking this group out after I explained DK to her, and so far it's more or less living up to its reputation. I certainly feel welcomed and encouraged. I can't wait to get everything up and running to my level of expectation and get out to a meeting.
By the way, after yesterday's exercise I've decided to follow my own advice and "pay the money, cry once". I'm going to just order the pricey fuel pump from the OEM manufacturer and a parts house that actually has a clue about the vehicle in question. Unfortunately after all of yesterday's goose chasing, I didn't make it home in time to call SOR before they closed... Monday morning I'll call and finally place my big order. I'm pretty much down for good until it comes in...
For reference on this truck, my overall intention is to get it mechanically and electrically good and reliable in the near term (it's going to stay rust and ugly) for daily driver duty. Once my business starts making some money, it will be replaced as DD by my then finished Beetle and a new (something of her choice) for my wife. Once general vehicular needs are met and I have a shop of some sort to work in, it will go under the knife and realize it's full potential.
For reference on this truck, my overall intention is to get it mechanically and electrically good and reliable in the near term (it's going to stay rust and ugly) for daily driver duty. Once my business starts making some money, it will be replaced as DD by my then finished Beetle and a new (something of her choice) for my wife. Once general vehicular needs are met and I have a shop of some sort to work in, it will go under the knife and realize it's full potential.
nuclearlemon
Hard Core 4+
have you checked to see if it's available from toyota before calling sor? sor is just an aftermarket company...they buy from toyota, then mark it up before selling to you.
SOR has two options: one is the OEM Toyota fuel pump, the other is the same manufacturer as OEM in a different box for $10 less. I checked out all of the other parts houses I have bookmarked, and of those that actually had it SOR was the cheapest (after you account for the 15% club discount and core charge). I've never known a dealership to even pretend to be a good place to buy parts without being the only possible source for said part. I could easily be wrong, so if anyone knows a better/cheaper source for such things I would really appreciate the heads up.
OEM is always cheaper in the long run!
Yup. Yesterday's experience is evidence of that...
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available and then buy another one hoping for a better result and then spend the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
I could have saved a day and half a tank of gas had I just bought the right one in the first place...
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available and then buy another one hoping for a better result and then spend the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
I could have saved a day and half a tank of gas had I just bought the right one in the first place...