• Jack-it Night: April 2024 RS Meeting Hey Guest: Wed. April 3rd is the next Rising Sun meeting, and you won't want to miss it. We're doing our annual offroad recovery equipment demonstration and trail skills training aka "Jack It Night." Meeting starts at 6:30 p.m. (early) Click here for all the details.

Stick with Ham or time to go GMRS?

elkeye

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
14
@DanielChase and I used handheld GMRS last weekend.

CON:
  1. Most all handheld GMRS use rechargeable packs of AA. Most all cannot be plugged into 12v when you drive (I have not found one yet!)
...


As previously posted, the BTech GMRS-V1 handheld can be plugged into 12v by using the UV-82 battery eliminator.


See:

https://seesharpdotnet.wordpress.com/2017/11/14/btech-gmrs-v1-review/

BTECH GMRS-V1 GMRS Handheld Radio + VHF/UHF Analog Scanner
  • 2W- or 500mW- transmit power
  • Receive Only: FM: 87.5-108 MHz, VHF: 136-174 MHz, UHF: 400-520 MHz
https://baofengtech.com/gmrs-v1
https://baofengtech.com/baofeng-uv-82-battery-eliminator
 

Inukshuk

Rising Sun Member
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Messages
7,271
Location
Denver, CO
Again this weekend I loaned out my GMRS handhelds so a person without radio could talk to me one day and then the next day loaned out two so the three of us could all talk.
 

Romer

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Sorry for the late entry. I bought a pair of FRS radios for the LCDC runs the last two years. They are rechargeable and worked much better than a CB

I have been fortunate at CM where for some runs 90% of the people on my runs had HAM and I lent the Baeofung to those that didnt telling them if they want to talk, I will be monitoring on CB (or maybe now FRS). On some runs where there are less HAMs I ran both as the CB doesnt make it past the half way point so I space out the HAM users. I typically have one of my daughters Gun so front and back communicates on HAM as well as a few placed people in the middle

Not only is the License 10 years, it is free to renew. Just renewed ours last year

I would think FRS over GMRS based on availability as its available and better than CB

I would still ask those who registered if they have HAM and their callsign. That would help me as a leader think about placement amongst the group

If CM adopts the FRS (or GRMS) I will still switch on the HAM and use it to communicate with those that also have it. I will have two radios and if the group has FRS then I will lead on FRS.

I only use HAM for wheeling or long road trips. I still remember the time Christ Hatfield contacted me on HAM from Jenny Creek to get a part to fix a breakage. he had no cell phone coverage and I was on my way driving through Lakewood at the time and it wasnt via repeater. HAM to me is a piece of key equipment, plus the APRS is a great feature as people can search by my call sign to see where I went if I don't show up or to figure out where I am meeting up way out in the boonies to help make connections easier
 
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FunkyYota

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Evergreen
I figure as a new member I should chime in. I got HAM certified originally for comms w/ RS. It wasn't that big of a deal. I bought a baofeng uv5r and upgraded antenna for 40 bucks. After learning about APRS I picked up an FTM400xdr.

After getting certified, HAM is my preferred radio communication method. If for no other reasons than the range and repeater infrastructure. I use it fairly often to locate friends at campsites and to relay my position to others. That being said I carry a pair of Marine VHF radios (b/c I have them) and a CB. Sometimes while skiing we'll run commercial or FRS radios, but they really don't compete w/ the HAM signal quality or range imo.
 

Inukshuk

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I just got my GMRS license. I didn't really catch on that it was a separate process from buying the radio and needed in addition to HAM.
https://quality2wayradios.com/store/gmrs-fcc-license walks through the steps.

If you already have HAM license, you already have a "FRN" number to log in and add a GMRS license. Your FRN number is on your HAM license.

I suspect most people just buy FRS radios and use them, no license. I'm sure there is no enforcement unless there is a complaint.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
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I just got my GMRS license. I didn't really catch on that it was a separate process from buying the radio and needed in addition to HAM.
https://quality2wayradios.com/store/gmrs-fcc-license walks through the steps.

If you already have HAM license, you already have a "FRN" number to log in and add a GMRS license. Your FRN number is on your HAM license.

I suspect most people just buy FRS radios and use them, no license. I'm sure there is no enforcement unless there is a complaint.
To keep this clear FRS and GMRS are two distinct services in the FCC. They fall under Part 95 regulations (of U.S. Code Title 47 'cause I know you wondered Daniel), broadly called "Personal Radio Services." Incidentally CB falls under Part 95 as well.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/part-95

When you buy an FRS radio you are not required to do anything further with respect to the FCC. These radios are designed and approved by the FCC to meet the technical requirements and are not modifiable. The end user just pushes and talks.

It's like your phone or WiFi in this respect. The manufacturer had to do a bunch up front but you don't have to get a special license even though it's a two-way device.

GMRS is slightly different because of the power involved and the extra degree of freedom granted. There are technical aspects the manufacturer had to do but there's a few things the end user must know and so the step of getting a license.

The main reason for the FCC wanting you to have a license and call sign for GMRS (and generally) is so you can be identified on the air if there's a conflict or interference complaint. Since GMRS can use any antenna they wish with gain and power up to 50 watts the chance for this is considerably higher than FRS or CB. Thus the $70 you gotta spend.

The reason an amateur license is cheap is thanks to the community and the ARRL. We self police and deal with almost all the administration amongst ourselves so the FCC doesn't have much work load. Plus strictly speaking amateurs are supposed to provide the nation a ready pool of capable radio technicians and operators during emergencies. It's a decades-old existing quid quo pro between the FCC, FEMA, the military, various agencies and responders.

Why it gets confusing is FRS and GMRS share frequencies and so the radios interoperate. If you have a GMRS radio you're supposed to have a GMRS license to operate it even if you're talking to someone with an FRS radio but some radios do work for both. What is usually the case is a GMRS/FRS radio will have a fixed antenna and correct bandwidth for FRS with power being selectable.

If you use high power it means it's GMRS and low power its FRS. It's possible to abuse FRS with a little more power than you're supposed to use but really it's the GMRS user who's giving up more by being hamstrung by FRS rules. You could be using a better replacement antenna and maybe wider bandwidth (sounds better) but the radio won't do those things lest it would be denied by the FCC for FRS.
 
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JadeRunner

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Lakewood, CO
I would switch over if people adopt this enough. I hate the CB limitations mainly with other peoples radios having issues. I've been lucky mine has worked perfectly for 15 years since I installed it. But, I'm ready to let it go.

Sounds like Daniel had pretty good results using the GMRS handhelds inside the vehicle? Perhaps a 1 mile range in the mountains? That's pretty good compared to a CB. But, like he said I would want a mic.

Whats the deal with the mounted antennas. Are they specific to GMRS radios. Or can I use my CB firestick antenna thats already mounted? It's tuneable. That wood be cool.
 

DaveInDenver

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Whats the deal with the mounted antennas. Are they specific to GMRS radios. Or can I use my CB firestick antenna thats already mounted? It's tuneable. That wood be cool.
The answer to your antenna question is "kinda sorta" meaning a GMRS antenna is just an antenna like any other so there's nothing specific about them that you *have* to buy a pre-made commercial one that says it's for GMRS.

But an antenna does have to work for the frequencies you want to use it with.

CB uses spectrum in the upper HF area, around 27 MHz or often called the 11 meter band. Antennas for CB aren't anywhere close to GMRS practically.

GMRS uses UHF spectrum, specifically frequencies in the 462 and 467 MHz range.

However, we (in the U.S.) do get an allocation at 420 to 450 MHz for amateur use, which is generally called the 70 cm band. A ham antenna that works there will receive GMRS pretty well. Such an antenna *might* be close enough to transmit. Hard to say without testing it.

But if the match isn't good enough it should be possible to re-tune a ham antenna to work on GMRS. It wouldn't work on 70 cm ham anymore probably, though.
 

Inukshuk

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However, we (in the U.S.) do get an allocation at 420 to 450 MHz for amateur use, which is generally called the 70 cm band. A ham antenna that works there will receive GMRS pretty well. Such an antenna *might* be close enough to transmit. Hard to say without testing it.

Dual band HAM antenna works brilliantly for GMRS!

K0FZJ and now also WRHV425
 

Inukshuk

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To keep this clear FRS and GMRS are two distinct services in the FCC.
....
GMRS is slightly different because of the power involved and the extra degree of freedom granted.
....
Why it gets confusing is FRS and GMRS share frequencies and so the radios interoperate.
....
If you use high power it means it's GMRS and low power its FRS.

OK, got this concept further after a conversation with a PR rep for Midland and some reading. Also, much of this radio tech is very new due to the FCC, in May 2017, significantly revising the rules for combination FRS/GMRS radios. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service).

In operation, its simple to use FRS/GMRS because "frequency channels" are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. You do not need to understand all this to use one, but its been very helpful to me understanding why we'd want to switch to FRS/GMRS and helpful to me when leading the trail and having people on HAM, FRS/GMRS, CB, and yelling out a window. :oops:

The power output on Midland's most powerful handhelds are limited by the FCC to 5 watts. https://midlandusa.com/5-watt-walkie-talkie-radios/ FRS radios are limited to 2 Watts on channel 1-7 and channels 15–22 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service). A GMRS handheld radio (mobile discussed below) can use 5 watts on the same channel 1-7 and channels 15–22. Thus, in actual practice and, of concern to us on the trail, the difference between your FRS or your GMRS handheld is not going to be that significant. I believe in all cases the FRS will still perform, again as we use them, as well or better than a CB. CB is limited to 4 watts and is AM. FRS/GMRS use FM. And FRS/GMRS are a radio where you can buy two for $80. No installation needed. Just make sure you have extra batteries or better yet get one that has a USB rechargeable battery you can plug in to your truck while driving. (I'll be testing the Midland T71 soon)

GMRS handhelds will/should technically have better range than FRS handhelds. But, if we are all using handhelds, we'll be on comparable power even between FRS and GMRS handhelds and they will all work fine for a 4x4 group within a few miles of each other. The GMRS handhelds usually have all the FRS channels built in, so if I have GMRS radios and you show up with FRS radios I can talk to you.

Now, GMRS also has available "mobile" units which can legally be up to 50 watts on channel 15-22. In Midland's case they offer mobile models in 5w, 15w, and 40w at this time. Also available are 3 & 6 db gain external antennas you'd mount as you would an antenna for HAM or CB. This antenna, which you cannot attach to a handheld is a significant part of why a "mobile" GMRS will perform better than a handheld GMRS. Unlike with many handheld ("HT") HAM radios, handheld GMRS radios and "FRS radios must use only permanently attached antennas " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service.

Dedicated GMRS mobile units installed are going to be comparable in price to a basic single band HAM installation. Handheld units cost less and require no installation - but make sure you can charge as you go or have plenty of extra batteries.

In the near future I expect to have loaner FRS/GMRS units for Rising Sun.

Now, back to what I have written about the MARS-CAP mod to "open" a HAM radio to transmit on different bands, seems that would be the best of both worlds to get your dual band (2M/70CM) HAM MARS-CAP modded ($35 by HRO) and use it for GMRS. I first used mine like this on the WY eclipse trip in 2016 to talk with people in our group with "handhelds" and have used it the past few weekends this summer the same way. Worked great. Note that it has to be on the GMRS frequensies, not FRS, and at the legal wattage. I am still researching if it is legal to use a HAM unit this way, and so far I see no issue if frquencies are GMRS and wattage is at or below 5/50 for appropriate frequencies. @DaveInDenver, info on this?
 
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FunkyYota

Rising Sun Member
Joined
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Messages
304
Location
Evergreen
OK, got this concept further after a conversation with a PR rep for Midland and some reading. Also, much of this radio tech is very new due to the FCC, in May 2017, significantly revising the rules for combination FRS/GMRS radios. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service).

In operation, its simple to use FRS/GMRS because "frequency channels" are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. You do not need to understand all this to use one, but its been very helpful to me understanding why we'd want to switch to FRS/GMRS and helpful to me when leading the trail and having people on HAM, FRS/GMRS, CB, and yelling out a window. :oops:

The power output on Midland's most powerful handhelds are limited by the FCC to 5 watts. https://midlandusa.com/5-watt-walkie-talkie-radios/ FRS radios are limited to 2 Watts on channel 1-7 and channels 15–22 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service). A GMRS handheld radio (mobile discussed below) can use 5 watts on the same channel 1-7 and channels 15–22. Thus, in actual practice and, of concern to us on the trail, the difference between your FRS or your GMRS handheld is not going to be that significant. I believe in all cases the FRS will still perform, again as we use them, as well or better than a CB. CB is limited to 4 watts and is AM. FRS/GMRS use FM. And FRS/GMRS are a radio where you can buy two for $80. No installation needed. Just make sure you have extra batteries or better yet get one that has a USB rechargeable battery you can plug in to your truck while driving. (I'll be testing the Midland T71 soon)

GMRS handhelds will/should technically have better range than FRS handhelds. But, if we are all using handhelds, we'll be on comparable power even between FRS and GMRS handhelds and they will all work fine for a 4x4 group within a few miles of each other. The GMRS handhelds usually have all the FRS channels built in, so if I have GMRS radios and you show up with FRS radios I can talk to you.

Now, GMRS also has available "mobile" units which can legally be up to 50 watts on channel 15-22. In Midland's case they offer mobile models in 5w, 15w, and 40w at this time. Also available are 3 & 6 db gain external antennas you'd mount as you would an antenna for HAM or CB. This antenna, which you cannot attach to a handheld is a significant part of why a "mobile" GMRS will perform better than a handheld GMRS. Unlike with many handheld ("HT") HAM radios, handheld GMRS radios and "FRS radios must use only permanently attached antennas " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service.

Dedicated GMRS mobile units installed are going to be comparable in price to a basic single band HAM installation. Handheld units cost less and require no installation - but make sure you can charge as you go or have plenty of extra batteries.

In the near future I expect to have loaner FRS/GMRS units for Rising Sun.

Now, back to what I have written about the MARS-CAP mod to "open" a HAM radio to transmit on different bands, seems that would be the best of both worlds to get your dual band (2M/70CM) HAM MARS-CAP modded ($35 by HRO) and use it for GMRS. I first used mine like this on the WY eclipse trip in 2016 to talk with people in our group with "handhelds" and have used it the past few weekends this summer the same way. Worked great. Note that it has to be on the GMRS frequensies, not FRS, and at the legal wattage. I am still researching if it is legal to use a HAM unit this way, and so far I see no issue if frquencies are GMRS and wattage is at or below 5/50 for appropriate frequencies. @DaveInDenver, info on this?

Is it legal to transmit on GMRS band from an amateur radio? I thought the MARS-CAP mode required separate licensing to stay legal.

I mean - I know a guy who may or may not use his baofeng in this capacity, but I'm thinking the FCC police might come blow his door down here someday soon.
 

Inukshuk

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Is it legal to transmit on GMRS band from an amateur radio? I thought the MARS-CAP mode required separate licensing to stay legal.

At this time I believe it is legal to broadcast particular power and frequencies based on licensure. I am uncertain whether posession of
equipment outside licensed frequencies is legal.
 

bassguyry

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I'm really struggling with making a decision on where to go next with my comms, and am watching this thread closely as a result... ;)

On one hand, I've got a Yaesu FTM-400 radio, basically new in the box, sitting in my garage. While I really don't have any interest in taking the amateur license exam, I'm tired of CB and its limitations.

On the other hand, I also have four Midland X-Talker (T71) FRS handheld radios that have been awesome when wheeling with newbies who have no comms at all. Way better range, clarity, and overall signal quality compared to CB - even non-line of sight transmissions are much clearer compared to CB. They're all charged via USB, so it's super easy to charge on the road, while camping, having lunch, etc. I've never actually had one die on me yet - even with 10-12 hours of solid wheeling on one charge. I've had my eye on the Midland MXT400 MicroMobile GMRS "base station", which would be compatible with the FRS radios I already have - and, I love the idea of just paying for a GMRS license rather than having to take a test...

Maybe I should just have a triple radio setup - CB, HAM, and GMRS. THE MOBILE RADIO RIG TO END ALL MOBILE RADIO RIGS... :LOL:
 

DaveInDenver

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Just take the amateur test. It's not hard. You already spent the money for a really nice radio you might as well use it. Something to consider is if everyone jumps to GMRS there's going to be a flood of ham radios on the market so the floor on their used value will drop out.
 

bassguyry

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Just take the amateur test. It's not hard. You already spent the money for a really nice radio.
Yeah, but then I've got to install the damn thing... :ROFLMAO:
 

DaveInDenver

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Yeah, but then I've got to install the damn thing... :ROFLMAO:
Ain't that the truth. Was only 4 years dealing with a hacked in mount before I finally dug in and got mine installed nice and clean actually *in* the dash.

IMG_1465_mid.jpg
 

bassguyry

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Ain't that the truth. Was only 4 years dealing with a hacked in mount before I finally dug in and got mine installed nice and clean actually *in* the dash.

View attachment 86688
Nice setup! I did the same thing with my CB a few months back:

Gdja3Su.jpg


I think that's part of the reason that I'm leaning towards the GMRS base station - the installation would be MUCH easier compared to the Yaesu. Having to mount the Yaesu's radio unit (likely in the rear of my 100), run cabling for the controller, mic, and antenna, installing an external speaker (and associated cabling) - that all sounds like a giant pain in the ass compared to installing the GMRS on the side of my center console and just running power and antenna cables.
 

DaveInDenver

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The radio body is remote mounted under the passenger seat. So something of a PITA. At least the face has the radio speaker and not the body so didn't need to deal with a separate speaker.
 

bassguyry

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