Stick with Ham or time to go GMRS?

[Inukshuk]

I think one of the biggest hurdles to ham adoption is that many people who are attracted to ham simply want better and more reliable comms. They don't want to learn 400 pages of theory, take exams, and pay fees, and then be admonished if they don't know every aspect of how radio waves work and all the other complexities that come along with the game. The vast majority of people who wheel want to just have simple, reliable, effective, cheap comms, and for better or for worse, $25 baofeng radios have really blurred the lines for a lot people looking for that.

Man, just learn enough test questions to pass and anyone who does not like your etiquette can kiss a**.
What's the fee $10? $125 basic 2M radio.
Sheesh!
Of buy a radio and ID yourself as ACØVH .... WØRDY ... K0IGE ... K0NAK .. K0FZJ ... K0HDJ .... KD7YBQ .

Sure. I let my family track me with APRS, run dual, band, and MAARS-CAPed it for Baja racing, but the first 10 years it was a Yaesu 1802 $120.00 2M radio.

Things are only as complicated as you make them

 

[DaveInDenver]

anyone who does not like your etiquette can kiss a**.

Please don't do this. On CB knock yourself out, it's already a Charlie Foxtrot of wolf-whistling jackasses.

 

[DouglasVB]

I know quite a few people in Oregon that run Baofeng radios on whatever frequency they can figure out how to mash into those things with no thought to licensing. It's interesting to see where they end up on the band (quite often outside of where anyone is supposed to be).

My first radio was a Baofeng and I still carry it with me. I think either Travis or Justin had me borrow theirs on an initial run that I did with the club. I already had my license from years and years ago so that wasn't an issue for me.

The audio quality of 2M amateur radios is soooo much better than CB and than the little blister pack FRS radios that I've used. Are the GMRS radios that they've got today decent audio quality?


When the new Midland mobile GMRS is released I guess I'll be buying one of those because I'm a sucker for more tech when it means more antennas 😁

 

[subzali]

Not to hijack the thread, but 12 seconds in...count 'em 1. AM/FM, 2. HF, 3. UHF, 4. Cell Phone


Let's add more antennas...

 

[Hulk]

Would this change need to be run by TLCA? Like... does TLCA have a standard recommendation that sanctioned events generally follow?

TLCA does not need to be consulted. We run Cruise Moab. Our 100% requirement for a CB radio has only been for the last 10-12 years. Before that, it was "highly recommended" but not required. We finally got tired of having people take the wrong turn on a trail and having no way to communicate with them.

I don't know how much ham radios have taken off with other clubs beyond RS, Wasatch, and NorCal. It's been clear that we could never require ham because of the barrier to entry. It's not a good option for someone who wants to come to Moab for the first time in their new 4Runner.

I agree with @MTSN -- our long-time guys with ham are not the norm and never have been.

Not to hijack the thread, but 12 seconds in...count 'em 1. AM/FM, 2. HF, 3. UHF, 4. Cell Phone
Let's add more antennas...

He has an antenna for his mobile phone! I have conflicting thoughts on this.

@DaveInDenver My real question is GMRS vs. FRS. I've had those FRS radios in the past and they work OK, but I'm not sure they're any better than a handheld CB radio. Is GMRS a huge step above in quality? I just don't know much about this.

 

[Hulk]

OK, 10 minutes of research shows that GMRS is significantly better than FRS. It looks to be more reliable than CB as well.

This looks like a pretty sweet setup. I love how small the radio is.
https://midlandusa.com/product/mxt115-micromobile-2-way-radio/

But I am guessing that most people will bring a handheld unit to Cruise Moab.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The audio quality of 2M amateur radios is soooo much better than CB and than the little blister pack FRS radios that I've used. Are the GMRS radios that they've got today decent audio quality?

@DaveInDenver My real question is GMRS vs. FRS. I've had those FRS radios in the past and they work OK, but I'm not sure they're any better than a handheld CB radio. Is GMRS a huge step above in quality? I just don't know much about this.

Yes and no.

"Yes" meaning GMRS can equal or even exceed the theoretical fidelity of CB, FRS and even typically ham radio.

"No" in that in the real world handheld and mobile radios are all going to be similar.

FRS being narrowband analog FM (e.g. 12K5F3E and 11K2F3E, see technical stuff below) is pretty close to as good as it can and even a top of the line commercial portable radio using the same channel requirements is going to sound a little thin. Narrowband FM is intentionally about as small of a channel as can be used and still sound OK. Not great but functional.

Broadly speaking portable and mobile radio designers a very long time ago figured out that compressing the audio by cutting off highs and lows and enhancing the mid frequencies make the most effective audio for clarity. So most radios cut off audio below about 300 Hz and above 3KHz anyway. There's no attempt made for faithful reproduction full frequency spectrum of people's voices. And radios designed for use with tone squelch (e.g. PL tones, CTCSS, repeater tones, etc.) must sharply cut off low frequencies otherwise your voice would upset tone squelch or you'd hear the sub tone.

Further, mics and modulation circuits are designed to punch through and the received audio and speaker is understood to be competing with ambient noise. And that's not to even speak of the impacts doing pre- and de-emphasis will have on quality. You can have a great pre-emphasis but a lousy de-emphasis filter does you no favors. Or vice versa, listening to a bad radio with a good one doesn't magically make it sound good.

Point is ultimately what it really comes down to is the quality of the audio paths are often better, e.g. better mic, filters, audio amps and speaker. A high end CB radio sounds great, like a desktop ham radio with high quality components and a large speaker would.

Two GMRS radios will sound great, like two ham mobiles on simplex. Throw in an FRS radio and it will sound worse. The GMRS radio can communicate with the FRS still but the two-way quality will be dictated by the lower of the two. That's the same as ham. Guys with Yaesu, Kenwood or Icom mobiles sound great to each other but a Baofeng with an external mic is usually pretty obviously on the air.

​

Technical stuff, just for completeness...​

​

CB is mode 8K0A3E, meaning double sideband, full carrier AM, 8 KHz bandwidth, with a channel spacing of 10 KHz. That means the maximum audio frequency is 4 KHz and there's a guard band between channels.​

​

FRS and the 467 MHz interstitial (stuck between) GMRS channels are required to use 12K5F3E which indicates 12.5 KHz FM, with 2.5 KHz deviation and audio limited to 3.125 KHz on 12.5 KHz channel spacing. Emission mode and spacing suggest there's neither overlap nor guard but technically speaking the occupied bandwidth with audio and deviation limits given should be 11.25 KHz so there's in reality a guard band.​

​

Generally outside of the interstitial channels GMRS is 20K0F3E, 20 KHz bandwidth FM, and 5 KHz deviation and there's a 1 KHz to 20 KHz audio filter requirement with a channel spacing of 25 KHz. This means GMRS has an modulated audio limit of about 5 KHz and will have a guard band between channels.​

​

For 2m ham in Colorado we use 16K0F3E, so 16 KHz bandwidth FM, with 5 KHz deviation. Technically we're limited to 3 KHz maximum audio frequency to stay within the occupied bandwidth of 16 KHz. Since our channel spacing is 15 KHz we have no guard band and actually overlap slightly if hams are using the full 3 KHz on adjacent channels. Utah uses 20 KHz channel spacing and does not overlap channels.​

​

 

[DaveInDenver]

OK, 10 minutes of research shows that GMRS is significantly better than FRS. It looks to be more reliable than CB as well.

This looks like a pretty sweet setup. I love how small the radio is.
https://midlandusa.com/product/mxt115-micromobile-2-way-radio/
View attachment 85937

But I am guessing that most people will bring a handheld unit to Cruise Moab.

A radio such as that MXT115 is going to fall in the middle ground. Probably more like a high quality HT mainly because the size of the speaker is limited as you'd expect. I'd figure it would easily exceed the quality of blister pack FRS, though.

 

[subzali]

My summary is that FRS is power limited compared to GMRS. I assume with more power you get more range, so going GMRS and getting the license has its advantage there. The handhelds I have do both depending on which channel you are on:
https://www.amazon.com/GXT1000VP4-Channel-GMRS-Two-Way-Radio/dp/B001WMFYH4

I get confused trying to remember which channels are FRS (and hence ok for me to transmit on since I don't have a GMRS license) and which ones are GMRS. The literature doesn't really speak to it and the radio doesn't let you know when you might be crossing over.

 

[Inukshuk]

He has an antenna for his mobile phone! I have conflicting thoughts on this.

I have a WeBoost Drive Reach booster with OTR antenna on a folding Rhino Rack antenna mount. Love it.

 

[DaveInDenver]

My summary is that FRS is power limited compared to GMRS. I assume with more power you get more range, so going GMRS and getting the license has its advantage there. The handhelds I have do both depending on which channel you are on:
https://www.amazon.com/GXT1000VP4-Channel-GMRS-Two-Way-Radio/dp/B001WMFYH4

I get confused trying to remember which channels are FRS (and hence ok for me to transmit on since I don't have a GMRS license) and which ones are GMRS. The literature doesn't really speak to it and the radio doesn't let you know when you might be crossing over.

The GXT1000 should do 0.5 W on low and 5 W on high. I think it might have a mid setting which I assume is 2 W.

All 22 channels are shared. Channels 8 through 14 for both FRS and GMRS are limited to 0.5 W. I thought the radio automatically limited power on those channels.

You only have to remember not to ever use high power with FRS on the rest. Using mid should be fine (I assume!) since on the rest of the channels FRS is limited to 2 W.

GMRS OTOH is limited to 5 W (1 to 7) or 50 W (15 to 22, or the unnumbered repeater input frequencies). The GXT1000 only does 5 W so it's fine to use high with a GMRS license on any 1-7 or 15-22.

Your radio will show other channels 23 up to 50 but they are the same base channels with privacy added.

 

[subzali]

The GXT1000 should do 0.5 W on low and 5 W on high. I think it might have a mid setting which I assume is 2 W.

All 22 channels are shared. Channels 8 through 14 for both FRS and GMRS are limited to 0.5 W. I thought the radio automatically limited power on those channels.

You only have to remember not to ever use high power with FRS on the rest. Using mid should be fine (I assume!) since on the rest of the channels FRS is limited to 2 W.

GMRS OTOH is limited to 5 W (1 to 7) or 50 W (15 to 22, or the unnumbered repeater input frequencies). The GXT1000 only does 5 W so it's fine to use high with a GMRS license on any 1-7 or 15-22.

Your radio will show other channels 23 up to 50 but they are the same base channels with privacy added.

Yeah what he said

My point is that's way more confusing than CB channel 4 or 146.460 at low, medium, or high radio power depending on what range I want to get

 

[DouglasVB]

Sounds like we'd just pick a channel on GMRS and use it, just like we do with the CB or the 2M channels? 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[DaveInDenver]

Yeah what he said

My point is that's way more confusing than CB channel 4 or 146.460 at low, medium, or high radio power depending on what range I want to get

It's harder to describe than it really is.

I think the radio remembers LOW/MID/HIGH and so *if* it automatically does the low power on 8 to 14 then all you have to do is select MID or HIGH based on your license and it should auto select. It's like choosing a default power setting when you program your ham radio is all.

It comes down to the quality of the firmware in the radio and Midland is a solid company that knows and follows the FCC rules. So it'll try to do as much as it can to make sure you stay in compliance.

You want difficult to explain try that ham VHF channelization has different spacing in Colorado and Utah. If you remember those 4 channels we designated several years ago, those are the only 4 common FM simplex to both states in the whole 2m band.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Sounds like we'd just pick a channel on GMRS and use it, just like we do with the CB or the 2M channels? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Seems like selecting one of FRS/GMRS channels 15 to 22 would cover everyone. FRS radios get 2W and GMRS get 50W. Using those would also cover using a repeater in theory since 15 to 22 are designated outputs on GMRS pairs.

 

[Hulk]

@DaveInDenver If you had the choice to wheel with a group of 5 guys with handheld CB radios vs. 5 guys with handheld GMRS radios, which would you choose?

I think the question here is whether RS and CM move from CB radio to GMRS.

 

[DaveInDenver]

@DaveInDenver If you had the choice to wheel with a group of 5 guys with handheld CB radios vs. 5 guys with handheld GMRS radios, which would you choose?

I think the question here is whether RS and CM move from CB radio to GMRS.

I'd call it a weak general preference to GMRS primarily due to FM quality but cost of a license is a negative. CBs are fine with one or two others with decent radios but in a group of 5 or more GMRS pulls ahead on technical merit. Neglecting $70 cost for GMRS license I see no disadvantage in any case.

Problem being that the free alternative of FRS radios doesn't really offer a very strong benefit in range or quality over CB. Spending the money on an up scale radio, external antenna and GMRS license is an optional (but strong) recommendation, not a requirement.

The question about CM is tough because it has to be one common for everyone and that's still CB in significant numbers. In the club the majority have already gone ham so the problem is juggling two systems which only comes up with a couple of hold-outs and newbies. It's also kind of what happens often at CM since many leaders/gunners are RS, Wasatch or NorCal and use ham anyway.

The newbies I doubt care, CB, GMRS, FRS, just pick one and they'll do it. But with CB we're asking them to spend twice since it seems most people figure out the de-facto standard is actually ham, not CB. We even go to the point of having hand-out ham handhelds because for the one non-ham it's easier to let them monitor (and just monitor Mr. FCC) than to deal with CBs.

So switching to GMRS now isn't gaining the club majority anything other than spending more money. Instead of a couple of CB outliers we'll tick off everyone doing that.

OTOH switching CM to GMRS/FRS might actually be easier since a large number are only using CB still so won't have quite as strong of an aversion to re-spending money to get UHF FM that ham adoptees have and rightly so. If you already have ham you gain nothing in that case.

 

[bassguyry]

Man, just learn enough test questions to pass and anyone who does not like your etiquette can kiss a**.
What's the fee $10? $125 basic 2M radio.
Sheesh!
Of buy a radio and ID yourself as ACØVH .... WØRDY ... K0IGE ... K0NAK .. K0FZJ ... K0HDJ .... KD7YBQ .

Sure. I let my family track me with APRS, run dual, band, and MAARS-CAPed it for Baja racing, but the first 10 years it was a Yaesu 1802 $120.00 2M radio.

Things are only as complicated as you make them

See, this is why Matt's post makes so much sense to me. I want to pick up a radio, push a button, and be able to immediately communicate with whomever I'm wheeling with. I don't want to learn enough test questions to pass the ham exam. I don't want to install another radio in my rig that allows me to communicate only with 1-2 people I'm wheeling with (or zero people, in most cases). This is the exact reason why I've got a brand new Yaesu radio sitting in a box, collecting dust in my garage. I'll install it and take the exam at some point, but that's really only to satisfy the "gadget guy" in me.

Last year, I bought four decent Midland FRS handheld radios (X-Talkers), as I was/am spending a lot of time wheeling with friends from work, neighbors, etc. who were/are new to wheeling. The audio quality is awesome, the range far exceeds what I've ever experienced with CB, and they're ridiculously easy to operate. The batteries last basically all day, and they charge via USB, which is very convenient.

tl;dr - I'm all for moving to GMRS/FRS from CB. I'll gladly pay the license fee for GMRS if it means I don't have to take a test. There are literally 500 other things I'd rather do than study for and take a test.

 

[elkeye]

The newbies I doubt care, CB, GMRS, FRS, just pick one and they'll do it. But with CB we're asking them to spend twice since it seems most people figure out the de-facto standard is actually ham, not CB. We even go to the point of having hand-out ham handhelds because for the one non-ham it's easier to let them monitor (and just monitor Mr. FCC) than to deal with CBs.

Another option for the non-ham would be to give them a GMRS handheld radio with the ability to receive (Rx) only 2m and/or 70cm.

See:

https://seesharpdotnet.wordpress.com/2017/11/14/btech-gmrs-v1-review/

BTECH GMRS-V1 GMRS Handheld Radio + VHF/UHF Analog Scanner

• 2W- or 500mW- transmit power
• Receive Only: FM: 87.5-108 MHz, VHF: 136-174 MHz, UHF: 400-520 MHz

https://baofengtech.com/gmrs-v1
https://baofengtech.com/baofeng-uv-82-battery-eliminator

 

[J1000]

People talking like the test is the Bar exam. It's not. If you graduated high school you should be able to pass it. You probably don't even need to study if you are already a nerd like most of us.

And I resent the comment about just wanting to fly drones! The reason I am a HAM in the first place was because I was flying drones!