Stick with Ham or time to go GMRS?

[DaveInDenver]

Ham radio has always seemed an uneasy option in 4WD. I don't think it's controversial to say a fair chunk of 4x4 enthusiast, members or not, have ham tickets because they felt peer pressured into it.

So with the core of the Elmers no longer active or easily engaged I'd like to discuss what people think we should do going forward. Of course there's a large base of hams in the club now. Some of us will always be hams either way, some tinker but it's not a primary hobby but would probably stick with it. But no one is really a go-to in Denver anymore.

Should we collectively keep going with amateur radio and getting new people licensed or is it time for a new direction?

GMRS is picking up speed, for example. This would have many of the benefits, 50W power, FM, good range, decent mobile and handheld radios, smaller antennas. But no tests, a lot less involved getting set up and much more targeted and concise online assistance. GMRS doesn't have the repeater infrastructure, all the spectrum and authority to experiment (such as digital modes, APRS, what have you).

The main argument I suspect is that everyone's bought a lot of gear and doesn't want it wasted. Legitimate argument and I don't think anyone who's already licensed and set up wants to change anything. There's no reason for long time members to do anything at this point, we're all set.

But what I'm wondering is that if new members are going to get licensed the club needs people to mentor them and I can't do that effectively via email and PM from 200 miles away. I'm happy to help but I acknowledge my help is lousy and ineffective.

The most effective thing we did was Ham and Eggs and that only worked because people could drop in, shoot the breeze and spin dials. It's not an event that IMO lends to virtual interaction. And then the small interactions, pre-meeting meeting or in a parking lot or garage to program a radio and troubleshoot. I'm physically and all my gear is here in GJ and it doesn't help anyone who needs a new connector put on or an antenna tuned.

It's possible all this is already happening and I just have no idea. Are members getting the support they need for tests and set up?

 

[Mendocino]

That's a lot to chew on @DaveInDenver

 

[60wag]

I thought GMRS was licensed:
https://www.fcc.gov/general-mobile-radio-service-gmrs

 

[DaveInDenver]

I thought GMRS was licensed:
https://www.fcc.gov/general-mobile-radio-service-gmrs

Licensed with a fee but there's no test. It's like CB once was prior to the Charlie Foxtrot it is now. You'd get a call sign even.

FRS is also licensed but rather than the end user going through any paperwork it's licensed by rule. Meaning the manufacturers certify their radios and you agree implicitly to use them as intended. It's actually the way many things electronic work, cell phones, WiFi, garage door openers. By using them you agree to follow the rules that apply to them.

Amateur radio is different in that that end user must test to get a license because of the inherent authority you're given. It's more similar to a commercial radio operator, such as a person who engineers a commercial radio station or radios for public service or businesses. You're being entrusted to engineer as well as operate radios.

 

[rover67]

How about we ditch CB in favor of GMRS for the easy/no license/do all/cruise moab/trail day option? you can get a few GMRS handhelds for super cheap (pair of motorolas for 30 bucks) and I can throw my CB crap in the trash. HAM can stay like it always has.

That being said, I do think there are folks going and studying and getting their HAM licenses... maybe not like it was 10 years ago, but people still do it.

Oh also, you've helped me out tremendously, i hope i'm not a burden lol!

I try to pass on what I learn but even with my skills (which are mediocre at best... but still something?) I hesitate to give advice sometimes for fear of miscommunication/incorrect info or whatever.

 

[gjmack3]

Neely and I are now dual licensed. We just paid for our GMRS licenses. I intend to advance my amateur radio licenses, but we both thought it might be a little easier, and beneficial to have both. We have 2 vehicle mounted radios on the way for the GMRS. It will be interesting to learn, and grow with GMRS.

 

[DaveInDenver]

How about we ditch CB in favor of GMRS for the easy/no license/do all/cruise moab/trail day option? you can get a few GMRS handhelds for super cheap (pair of motorolas for 30 bucks) and I can throw my CB crap in the trash. HAM can stay like it always has.

That being said, I do think there are folks going and studying and getting their HAM licenses... maybe not like it was 10 years ago, but people still do it.

Oh also, you've helped me out tremendously, i hope i'm not a burden lol!

It's not a burden. You don't hesitate to ask and we all know each other. I don't get a sense of you being short changed per say. I just figure new members are missing out not getting those classes we did or Ham & Eggs. There's a difference in being a ham radio club that goes 'wheeling and a 4WD club where some of us are enthusiastic hams.

Perhaps there needs to be a poll. Data is welcomed, eh?

And just to be clear the status quo is fine so it's mostly an open discussion whether you guys, old and new, think the communications needs are being addressed. We also don't operate in a vacuum, lots of clubs in TLCA and elsewhere are deciding to stick with CB, jump to GMRS/FRS, ham or what. So the RS might stay the course but understand that GMRS is gaining traction. The Easter Jeep Safari this year was I think to use GMRS for trail communication. But Midland is a sponsor and I suspect loaners and give-aways would be involved. I don't think they have the ham user base that TLCA does, though.

I try to pass on what I learn but even with my skills (which are mediocre at best... but still something?) I hesitate to give advice sometimes for fear of miscommunication/incorrect info or whatever.

If you only realized how often the Elmer(s) make it up on the fly... Heck, it seems I'm mostly validating what you already had figured out anyway.

 

[Beach Boy]

I have been resistant into going ham as testing, not using it often, (forgetting what to do, I'm an old forgetful fart), costs of equipment, etc. I have stayed with the simple CB but limited because of range. GMRS sounds interesting, and I will be looking into moving in that direction.

 

[Inukshuk]

I cannot believe I am wading into a radio thread started by Dave..... Love ya bro!

Midland is really promoting GMRS. They have a nice powerful mobile unit in addition to their handhelds. I have done some work with their marketing firm and I am pretty confident they would love to see all of us using GMRS. If you guys turn this into large interest, and get it organized, maybe Midland will want to do something fun with us.

I have two handhelds I'm happy to loan out in exchange for brief reviews.

That being said, almost all the handhelds require batteries and don't work off the 12 of our trucks, they are much less powerful.
The mobile units are not so much easier to use and install than a mobile HAM or CB. All the basic setups cost about the same, and you get so much more versatility with HAM.

Brian, test is easy. Do it once, good for 10 years. I basically use my HAM like a CB, but it allows so much more when want to use it for more. Before going to remote areas it is easy to look up and jot down what repeaters will be in my area. Just Sunday I was in an area with no cell service. A few months back the neighbor told me I was near the Squaw Mountain Repeater. 145.145. I tuned that frequency and did a radio check. Someone answered right away. Its an "open" repeater and the radio comes pre-set to the "basic" open repeater shift and codes. Easy peasy. Also, my fancy dual-band (2M and 70CM) HAM has the "MARS-CAP" mod which Ham Radio Outlet did for me for $35 when I bought the radio (so easy that it is a check-box on their website). MARS-CAP "opens" the radio so it works on just about every frequency on the bands. I did this for racing in Baja, but it also allows me to tune FRS and GMRS bands.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Daniel is probably biased since he's got the good ham vanity call. WKRP234 or whatever he'd get on GMRS doesn't have the same ring as K0FZJ!

 

[DouglasVB]

Man... am I going to have to get a mobile GMRS setup now, too? What's one more antenna on my truck... 🤣

Now that we're seeing virtual technician class license tests ( http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2020/march/usa-conducts-first-all-online-ham-radio-exam.htm ), it seems that the barriers to amateur radio are getting lower.

I personally have a CB radio, a 2M mobile radio (up to 70 watts transmit), and a 2M/70cm hand held. And I usually have some FRS radios kicking around in the truck. Pretty sure now that I think about it, I've got a couple little hand-held GMRS radios... Hmm...

My feeling is we'll never get everyone to standardize on one thing even within one club. Someone's still going to need to run everything to be able to repeat across bands on larger runs.

 

[DouglasVB]

So... dare I ask... what's the "best" GMRS setup to install in the cab of my truck? Midland's 40 watt setup?

 

[elkeye]

FYI ... Midland is planning a replacement/upgrade of the MTX400.

https://midlandusa.com/product/mxt400-micromobile-2-way-radio/

 

[DaveInDenver]

My feeling is we'll never get everyone to standardize on one thing even within one club. Someone's still going to need to run everything to be able to repeat across bands on larger runs.

I don't think anyone who's interested is going to dump their amateur radios. The repeater infrastructure and APRS are too valuable. Ham radio is certainly first and foremost in my truck with a CB stuck in a cubby that last got used at CM2019. I personally have zero reason to move to GMRS.

The only reason I can come up with for *not* doing ham is doing runs with unlicensed drivers. Right now they either have to be pirate hams or we do manual cross banding from CB to ham. With GMRS you just hand out FRS radios.

I'm just offering food for thought since the newcomers seem to me to be set adrift with snippets of random advice. I'm happy to help but mostly I want the other hams in the club to think about being Elmers. I feel a responsibility that we (collectively) represent amateur radio well.

If the decision in Rising Sun or broadly is GMRS makes more sense that's fine, I'll adapt and still help with any radio topics. As far as more radios and antennas, oh well, darn. So be it...

 

[mcgaskins]

Two Cruise Moab Committees ago we discussed switching CM over to GMRS or FRS. It was a pretty passionate debate, and there were some members who shall remain nameless who said something to the effect of "The only people who want to change are these damn millenials who just want new shiny stuff but couldn't give a damn! We're keeping CBs or requiring ham!!" Not going to lie it was pretty entertaining to sit back and watch. That is the biggest issue you will face though because once people buy certain equipment and get used to it, you aren't easily going to convince them to buy new equipment AND pay a licensing fee. I'm not a big CB guy because there are always at least a few guys without it or their setup is so bad it may as well be missing, but that's the standard in most clubs and has been forever.

 

[Hulk]

The only reason I have kept CB in my truck has been Cruise Moab. We just couldn't legitimately require everyone to get licensed for ham. If GMRS is an option where people can get licensed and buy a solid radio for $100, we could probably let the 1200+ people on the CM list know about it far enough in advance to make the switch. A portable radio with a 12v supply would be optimal.

 

[DouglasVB]

Would this change need to be run by TLCA? Like... does TLCA have a standard recommendation that sanctioned events generally follow?

 

[subzali]

I have kept CB for friends outside the club I go with (and Cruise Moab), but most of them these days are switching over to FRS/GMRS handhelds (or sometimes mounted). They are just cheaper, less hassle than mounting a CB, handheld is preferred for most I think, and you can buy them online or at Wal Mart, REI etc., don't have to go searching around to a truck stop or some place that's out of business (Radio Shack, Radio Service Center, etc.). FRS/GMRS seems to be replacing CB. And then Ham is Ham. I use my Ham like a higher quality CB, but have intentions of getting into it more for APRS and other functions. So yeah I got into it in the earlier days of the club and will stick with it but agree with you Dave maybe the push isn't going to all the new folks to use it at this point either.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Would this change need to be run by TLCA? Like... does TLCA have a standard recommendation that sanctioned events generally follow?

I intended this discussion relative only to Rising Sun but the club of course sponsors Cruise Moab and is closely tied in with TLCA so nothing is done in a vacuum.

Amateur radio is IMO well covered in our circles but it's not completely replaced CB and won't. So the question does really seem to be the likelihood of a majority movement to GMRS from CB or not. There was and won't ever be 100% ham embracement, but it's not fair to expect that since it's a more specialized aspect of radio communication.

But I think going to FRS/GMRS is a fair question for club and TLCA events. Cruise Moab requires a functioning CB, not sure if the club makes this mandatory. The barrier here is a cheap FRS radios that require no license just like CB with the option for better handhelds or mobiles.

 

[mcgaskins]

I intended this discussion relative only to Rising Sun but the club of course sponsors Cruise Moab and is closely tied in with TLCA so nothing is done in a vacuum.

Amateur radio is IMO well covered in our circles but it's not completely replaced CB and won't. So the question does really seem to be the likelihood of a majority movement to GMRS from CB or not. There was and won't ever be 100% ham embracement, but it's not fair to expect that since it's a more specialized aspect of radio communication.

But I think going to FRS/GMRS is a fair question for club and TLCA events. Cruise Moab requires a functioning CB, not sure if the club makes this mandatory. The barrier here is a cheap FRS radios that require no license just like CB with the option for better handhelds or mobiles.

I think one of the biggest hurdles to ham adoption is that many people who are attracted to ham simply want better and more reliable comms. They don't want to learn 400 pages of theory, take exams, and pay fees, and then be admonished if they don't know every aspect of how radio waves work and all the other complexities that come along with the game. The vast majority of people who wheel want to just have simple, reliable, effective, cheap comms, and for better or for worse, $25 baofeng radios have really blurred the lines for a lot people looking for that.

@DaveInDenver you have an unbelievable amount of technical ham knowledge (amongst many other things) and do an awesome job of educating people on how this stuff works. Many others here on this board like @Mendocino are legit experts as well, but the reality is most people wheel a handful of times per year and just want a radio that works when they hit the button. That's likely the reason why CB remains most clubs' default, and why most groups unaffiliated with a club use FRS/GMRS, especially when you can buy a blister pack of cheap decent radios when grabbing supplies at the Walmart or Bass Pro in Grand Junction. Highly educated, deeply caring, and what I would consider basically professional wheelers like the majority of long standing Rising Sun members are simply not the majority of people wheeling these days (were they ever though?). They're people who just bought a truck because they got hooked on a Youtube "overlander" channel and want to play with walkie talkies between their vehicles and fly their drones.