Stick with Ham or time to go GMRS?

[mcgaskins]

If/when the club decides to consider an official change, I would post a poll (including a paragraph on pros and cons of each option) in the general section or landing page of the forums to see what the majority of the forum members think - one vote per person either CB, FRS, GMRS, Ham. I would NOT open it up for discussion because there will be 3-5 super passionate guys debating furiously about their opinions and overwhelm the conversation, and that will dissuade people from being honest and vote how they truly feel. It should be blind too so no one can see who votes which way. I honestly could not care which direction the club goes, but it would be nice to eventually ditch CB.

FWIW a couple years ago my buddy and I were by Santiago mine pulling some dude out of a snow drift with bald tires, and another dude came running down the side of the mountain waving his arms furiously to get our attention. He was with his wife and dog way up above at the top of Leavenworth Creek Road also stuck, and they were near tipping as they kept sliding off the trail towards the edge of the shelf. I told him we needed to finish one recovery before heading up there, but he could wait with us and ride up in my truck. He was worried about leaving his wife alone, so I gave him a GMRS radio (I keep a 4 pack for these exact situations) to keep in touch with us as we made our way up to his spot. Granted there aren't any trees in the way up there, but the radios worked perfectly over a long distance and no direct line of site. Of course a couple cheap Baofengs would have worked the same or better, but the simple form factor of a radio you just turn on and push a button is precisely what people like. Imagine if I gave him a complex ham handheld and he accidentally hit the wrong button and we lost comms? It's way, way harder on an FRS/GMRS radio especially if you had a radio and say "channel 1 and hit this button to talk" or whatever. Even if someone is scared or injured, that's going to be easier than saying "make sure you are on frequency one four five dot five niner zero...oh and broadcast on high power and don't touch ANYTHING else"

 

[DaveInDenver]

For many of the reasons you say @MTSN ham may not be appropriate for the club standard. I will mention that many (most?) ham HT radios have the ability to lock so once you've set a channel you can prevent the keyboard, selection dial or even PTT from doing anything.

Yeah, the CB-vs-Amateur thing has been contentious for years. So this is a minefield for sure. There may have been a time that making ham the common standard could have been possible but at this point I probably would argue against it unless there was a communications committee/team to deal with education and technical issues.

 

[Hulk]

I could see doing a vote with 3 options: CB, FRS, and GMRS.

• The FRS option seems like a no brainer. Many people already have these and they are a cheap purchase even if you don't. I feel like we won't piss off anyone with a nice CB since getting an FRS radio is super cheap.
• For a new wheeler, FRS is way easier than CB at this point. You can get an FRS radio at Walmart or wherever.
• If today's FRS and GMRS radios plug into USB for power, that solves the problem we've had with handheld CBs going dead in the past. Everyone has a USB charger in their vehicle.
• I kind of like the idea of added power of GMRS for reaching people at further distances. And maybe the exclusivity of the upper channels would be a good thing so we don't have to fight with others using the lower channels shared with FRS. But $70 is spendy. CM registrants won't like that.

Thinking about CM, it seems like FRS is the obvious answer. Not sure about Rising Sun, although it would be better if the two were the same.

I wouldn't put Ham on the list for either RS or CM.

• For RS, it's self selective. If you participate on the kind of club runs where everyone is a ham, you'll be motivated to get it. If not, no big deal.
• For CM, it's not feasible.

 

[bassguyry]

People talking like the test is the Bar exam. It's not. If you graduated high school you should be able to pass it. You probably don't even need to study if you are already a nerd like most of us.

And I resent the comment about just wanting to fly drones! The reason I am a HAM in the first place was because I was flying drones!

Not sure if you're responding to my post or not, but I never said the exam was like the bar exam, nor did anyone else, IIRC. I never said it was difficult. I said I didn't want to take a test in order to communicate with people I'm wheeling with. The exam is a barrier to entry not present with any other comms methods (CB, GMRS, FRS) - that's the only point I'm trying to make. Sure, GMRS requires a licensing fee, but I don't have to research a specific location and time in order to show up and pay the fee.

 

[J1000]

Not sure if you're responding to my post or not, but I never said the exam was like the bar exam, nor did anyone else, IIRC. I never said it was difficult. I said I didn't want to take a test in order to communicate with people I'm wheeling with. The exam is a barrier to entry not present with any other comms methods (CB, GMRS, FRS) - that's the only point I'm trying to make. Sure, GMRS requires a licensing fee, but I don't have to research a specific location and time in order to show up and pay the fee.

Partly, yes. The barrier to entry keeps the yahoos out. It's not very high, you can find classes in your area or online to do the test. HAM radio is one of those things that makes America America. We should cherish it and participate in it to keep it healthy.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Not sure if you're responding to my post or not, but I never said the exam was like the bar exam, nor did anyone else, IIRC. I never said it was difficult. I said I didn't want to take a test in order to communicate with people I'm wheeling with. The exam is a barrier to entry not present with any other comms methods (CB, GMRS, FRS) - that's the only point I'm trying to make. Sure, GMRS requires a licensing fee, but I don't have to research a specific location and time in order to show up and pay the fee.

That is the essence here. This is a 4WD club, not a ham radio club.

The honest truth is what got me to thinking about it was a fairly new member asking about ham radio and their reply was, to paraphrase, "just because I want to talk to people on the trail."

Ham radio offers a lot to 4WD enthusiasts so it doesn't have be to mutually exclusive but it's not really fair to expect it to be a requirement unless it is made clear that is what we intend to use solely for communication. Doing that will I think turn off a fair number of people who just want to fix up their old FJ40 or 'wheel their 4Runner.

But I think settling on GMRS with it's $70 fee is similar, a pay-to-play that needs to be part of the ground rules going in. That's why FRS seems a good baseline requirement. You have to have *some* sort of communication for 4WD clubs and FRS is cheap and more reliable than a CB which requires mounting a fairly substantial antenna and dialing in your station.

I think problems with CM radios goes away. Half the time CBs don't work because of a bad antenna mount or kinked coax. It's got some of the complexity of GMRS and ham in that respect.

Then FRS gives an more obvious upgrade path to GMRS for anyone or ham, if that's the subset of people you tend to run with in the club. No matter who you are, even the old CB'ers, throwing a cheap no-test, no-license FRS radio in the console to comply with the least common denominator standard isn't much to ask.

 

[bassguyry]

Partly, yes. The barrier to entry keeps the yahoos out. It's not very high, you can find classes in your area or online to do the test. HAM radio is one of those things that makes America America. We should cherish it and participate in it to keep it healthy.

I'll agree to disagree. I'll be the yahoo who has no interest in taking another exam.

When I think of America, I don't think "Ham", unless you're referring to bacon (if the question is "bacon", "yes" is the only answer). I feel like wheeling is more American than Ham, and it's something I absolutely cherish and participate in. In fact, wheeling WITH bacon might be the most American thing I can think of.

 

[DaveInDenver]

When I think of America, I don't think "Ham"

I was introduced to amateur radio in Boy Scouts, although I didn't actually get my license until engineering school because of a horrible inability to learn languages, including Morse. But none-the-less, when I think of ham radio I think of Scout camp, plinking with a 22 rifle, canvas wall tents, dutch oven cobbler. So, yeah, I agree with Jimmy here. ;-)

 

[J1000]

I was meaning more that internationally in most countries people are not allowed to use a lot of the bands and output powers that we can. I know in the drone community Europeans are very jealous of our radio gear here in the USA. If we don't use it we could lose it, commercial interests are breathing down the FCC's neck trying to scoop up more bands for their own use.

e: not to say I am against GMRS at all. In fact I will probably buy one soon.

 

[Beach Boy]

After reading all of the posts and haveing no idea what everyone is talking about, I agree with some of the members, I do not want to take a test (yes, I would pass), and I just want to push a button and talk, but with more range than my CB.

 

[mcgaskins]

And I resent the comment about just wanting to fly drones! The reason I am a HAM in the first place was because I was flying drones!

No need to be offended - it was just a little self deprecating humor. My wife snapped this pic of me and my buddy during CM18.

 

[Mendocino]

I'm not sure what the current proposal is, if there is one. I don't think we can reasonably mandate anything for CM other than CB. It would be great if everyone had HAM, but that will never happen. As for RS, leave things like they are. Most people that regularly do runs are more likely to have HAM than CB on any given run. On the longer runs HAM is even more prevalent. If RS were to mandate something other than HAM for Club runs I will not comply as I have no desire to switch to inferior tools.

Speaking personally, doing expedition-style four wheeling means being prepared and being able to look after yourself in remote environments. People that can do this are serious about their skills and their tools. To that group, communications is important and they are likely to have a mixed bag of comms including satellie, cellular, and HAM. GMRS and CB are not likely.

As for new folks, hand them an FRS and call it good. Keeping a four pack in your rig is a nice option for new folks. I usually carry multiple HAM HTs to hand out to allow non-licensed folks to listen (I did that in Moab last weekend). New folks will see how much more useful HAM is and many will get licensed.

All the best to all of you in this, I will keep doing what I am doing as I know it works.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I'm not sure what the current proposal is, if there is one.

Just discussion here, no proposed action.

I don't think we can reasonably mandate anything for CM other than CB. It would be great if everyone had HAM, but that will never happen.

CM will never be amateur radio as a requirement. That's not even being suggested. Whether CM stays CB or moves to FRS & GMRS I think is a legitimate question.

As for RS, leave things like they are.

Which is what? Is CB an official position or are communications ad hoc?

Most people that regularly do runs are more likely to have HAM than CB on any given run. On the longer runs HAM is even more prevalent. If RS were to mandate something other than HAM for Club runs I will not comply as I have no desire to switch to inferior tools.

Speaking personally, doing expedition-style four wheeling means being prepared and being able to look after yourself in remote environments. People that can do this are serious about their skills and their tools. To that group, communications is important and they are likely to have a mixed bag of comms including satellie, cellular, and HAM. GMRS and CB are not likely.

As for new folks, hand them an FRS and call it good. Keeping a four pack in your rig is a nice option for new folks. I usually carry multiple HAM HTs to hand out to allow non-licensed folks to listen (I did that in Moab last weekend). New folks will see how much more useful HAM is and many will get licensed.

All the best to all of you in this, I will keep doing what I am doing as I know it works.

So with all that said what do you propose is the right course of action for new members? I of course agree that amateur radio offers quite a lot but the original Elmers Brian, KC0YRM, and Nathaniel, W0IIN, aren't around and I'm in GJ. Who's left to assist over there when a member wants in the snooty radio club we've built?

I agree that having ham radio could be a requirement made by a leader of a run like sometimes 33" or a locker. But what is the stock friendly equivalent? Even CBs need someone to help with installation and antenna tuning to work at all reasonably. Just seems like clarity is needed and getting everyone on the same page regarding how the heck we talk to each other on the trail.

 

[Mendocino]

Just discussion here, no proposed action.

CM will never be amateur radio as a requirement. That's not even being suggested. Whether CM stays CB or moves to FRS & GMRS I think is a legitimate question.

Which is what? Is CB an official position or are communications ad hoc?

So with all that said what do you propose is the right course of action for new members? I of course agree that amateur radio offers quite a lot but the original Elmers Brian, KC0YRM, and Nathaniel, W0IIN, aren't around and I'm in GJ. Who's left to assist over there when a member wants in the snooty radio club we've built?

I agree that having ham radio could be a requirement made by a leader of a run like sometimes 33" or a locker. But what is the stock friendly equivalent? Even CBs need someone to help with installation and antenna tuning to work at all reasonably. Just seems like clarity is needed and getting everyone on the same page regarding how the heck we talk to each other on the trail.

New members are told HAM is suggested, but they can use GMRS, or FRS with no assurance that they will be able to talk to everyone. Leaders of runs can require specific comms types. I have done this and people still don't comply. While I agree you are asking legitimate questions, we won't have an action all will follow.

As for the lack of Elmers, why don't we establish a relationship with a HAM Radio club to birn in new Elmers?

 

[DaveInDenver]

As for the lack of Elmers, why don't we establish a relationship with a HAM Radio club to birn in new Elmers?

Great question. I know TJ goes to the Northern Colorado Amateur Radio Club (NCARC) meetings periodically but it's been at least 4 years since I went to one. I do try to make Western Colorado ARC meetings and hope they resume again soon when we can again tolerate being in the same building with other humans.

The Colorado Connection guys always can use help getting to repeater sites and the one here in GJ needs a visit soon for a reset. There's still enough snow on top of the Mesa that a cat is needed but soon enough we'll drive up.

I think the problem is circular though. Anyone who's really interested enough in ham radio will already be curious or know about these things and most members aren't after another hobby.

ColCon is about the only repeaters I hear any RS members on and that's rare and unheard of other than driving to and from trail runs, so I don't know how much value that infrastructure is really appreciated otherwise there'd be rag chewing.

You can do data on GMRS, although there's no wide area or networked digipeaters like we hams have. But how many APRS messages are ever sent or the ones that are go unacknowledged?

The number of fellow HF hams is, what, two? I tried to start a sked rotation. No one showed up for the first and the torch wasn't picked up to attempt planning a second.

I'm curious, how many have become ARRL members?

For ham radio to be useful here it's the individual ham who has to apply the acquired knowledge. That's why I started this post, it seems like as "guru" people ask how to do just enough. They don't want to be hams, they just want tech support to set them up to be in on the conversation.

 

[subzali]

I'll go back a little bit on what I said earlier. Seems to me that with proper setup, CB has 4W available and external antenna, so should have better range than FRS handhelds limited to 2W. So part of me says to keep CB as the standard because it *could* be a better communication system. It just seems tough to me because what I will call "new-school" wheelers/side-by-side drivers don't seem that interested in installing a CB; they'd rather get a handheld from Wal-Mart. And a handheld CB is like $100 last time I checked while you can get a 2-pack FRS/GMRS set for $60-$70.

Hell I haven't bothered to install a radio of any sort in my 80 yet and I've been taking it on off-road adventures for a couple years now. Just haven't been on a Rising Sun run with it yet. It was easier for me to buy my handhelds for my occasional uses, and that coincides with some of my other J**P, side-by-side, Ford pickup friends that I've gone with. If I could be more engaged with Rising Sun runs then I would have more incentive to install a Ham into my 80 for sure.

So I'm guilty as charged with what Dave said above. I don't know, I'm probably in the minority so I'll step aside now.

 

[damon]

From reading thru all this, here is what I have gathered:

- CB is currently accepted, works well enough, but occasionally has jackasses who ruin the fun.
- FRS is garbage, and you can barely transmit around a bend on the trail because .5W/2W is cute, but not effective.
- GMRS is a good solution, but requires a license fee, and $300+ to get a radio with 40W. People don't seem opposed to the license fee (let's be honest, we drop hundreds of dollars on dumber shit for our FJs on a regular basis.
- HAM people will always argue for HAM, because it's an elite club, and the distance is (with use of repeaters) "global." You do have to take time out your life to study and pass a test, and have to have knowledge about things that you will NEVER use on a trail saying things like "I cleared the obstacle, go ahead next vehicle."

My $.02 FWIW, CB works well enough, and someone can get a decent setup in their car for $50-60 (Uniden 510 and a mag mount antenna for example). GMRS is also a great idea, but for some who don't have the extra cash to drop $400 on a radio/antenna/cable and $70 on a license, it might be a hard reach for them when a lot of people are currently suffering financially. Sure you can get a cheap handheld, but they are almost useless inside a vehicle.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I'm probably in the minority so I'll step aside now.

Minority, majority, doesn't matter. Point is to get a heat map of individuals as to where we go. Happy to be an amateur radio Elmer if people really want an Elmer. I just get the feeling that most see it as a $10 fee instead of $70 for the same outcome so Elmer just ends up meaning volunteer tech support for 2m mobile installations.

 

[DaveInDenver]

From reading thru all this, here is what I have gathered:

- CB is currently accepted, works well enough, but occasionally has jackasses who ruin the fun.
- FRS is garbage, and you can barely transmit around a bend on the trail because .5W is cute, but not effective.
- GMRS is a good solution, but requires a license fee, and $300+ to get a radio with 40W. People don't seem opposed to the license fee (let's be honest, we drop hundreds of dollars on dumber shit for our FJs on a regular basis.
- HAM people will always argue for HAM, because it's an elite club, and the distance is (with use of repeaters) "global." You do have to take time out your life to study and pass a test, and have to have knowledge about things that you will NEVER use on a trail saying things like "I cleared the obstacle, go ahead next vehicle."

My $.02 FWIW, CB works well enough, and someone can get a decent setup in their car for $50-60 (Uniden 510 and a mag mount antenna for example). GMRS is also a great idea, but for some who don't have the extra cash to drop $400 on a radio/antenna/cable and $70 on a license, it might be a hard reach for them when a lot of people are currently suffering financially. Sure you can get a cheap handheld, but they are almost useless inside a vehicle.

Pretty fair summary. Will say the top of the line GMRS from Midland (MXT400) is $250. A similar single band ham radio is probably about $150. Antennas for both are going to be essentially the same thing. There's no reason GMRS radios have to be expensive other than the lack of market competition. The only alternative to Midland right now off the shelf are a random radio here or there (like the BTech GMRS-V1 mentioned) or to repurpose old Motorola, Kenwood or other business band radios, which as I understand it is a wink-wink OK from FCC not explicitly allowed. There are no truly legal GMRS repeaters for example but there's many on the air without issue. I think the FCC is OK with Part 90 radios because they meet and exceed the technical requirements for GMRS. But either way if GMRS gains popularity one could suppose a company like GME, Cobra or someone else might enter the market with alternatives and bring prices down. The guts of GMRS radios are along the same lines as their 2m VHF and UHF ham and business radios anyway so some firmware changes, testing and FCC paperwork to get them approved.

 

[damon]

Pretty fair summary. Will say the top of the line GMRS from Midland (MXT400) is $250. A similar single band ham radio is probably about $150. Antennas for both are going to be essentially the same thing. There's no reason GMRS radios have to be expensive other than the lack of market competition. The only alternative to Midland right now off the shelf are a random radio here or there (like the BTech GMRS-V1 mentioned) or to repurpose old Motorola, Kenwood or other business band radios, which as I understand it is a wink-wink OK from FCC not explicitly allowed. There are no truly legal GMRS repeaters for example but there's many on the air without issue. I think the FCC is OK with Part 90 radios because they meet and exceed the technical requirements for GMRS. But either way if GMRS gains popularity one could suppose a company like GME, Cobra or someone else might enter the market with alternatives and bring prices down. The guts of GMRS radios are along the same lines as their 2m VHF and UHF ham and business radios anyway so some firmware changes and FCC paperwork to get them approved.

Agreed. I guess $400 was a little high for an estimate, probably closer to $300-325 for MXT400, cable and antenna. And yes, someone besides Midland needs to make a decent in-car GMRS radio so that prices can come down a little more.