Stick with Ham or time to go GMRS?

[Mendocino]

@bassguyry I'd be interested in the FTM-400 too.

 

[Inukshuk]

On the other hand, I also have four Midland X-Talker (T71) FRS handheld radios that have been awesome when wheeling with newbies who have no comms at all. .... They're all charged via USB
....
I've had my eye on the Midland MXT400 MicroMobile GMRS "base station", which would be compatible with the FRS radios I already have - and, I love the idea of just paying for a GMRS license rather than having to take a test...

I expect to get these to test out also

Maybe I should just have a triple radio setup - CB, HAM, and GMRS. THE MOBILE RADIO RIG TO END ALL MOBILE RADIO RIGS...

I do. Its so fun!

Nice setup! I did the same thing with my CB a few months back:

I had high hopes when I dash-installed the exact same CB in my 1993 and the RF noise is unbearable. Pretty sure its engine/dash wire noise of my 93. I have to turn squelch all the way up. My old radio shack CB was down by the transfer case shifter and worked fine.

 

[Inukshuk]

It's never legal to use an amateur radio for GMRS, FRS or CB. Or for that matter commercial, public service or emergency agencies such as SAR. This is true even if you have a license.

Amateur radios generally don't meet the FCC Part 95 (or Part 90 for business) technical requirements so even if you hold a valid GMRS license or business frequency authorization a ham radio was never blessed by the FCC. We as amateurs are given the authority to self certify our radios and they were never checked by the FCC or anyone else.

The only requirement the FCC has is that our radios do not transmit beyond the band edges of the spectrum we're assigned (this envelope of energy consists of both the fundamental and harmonics). What happens inside the spectrum is up to us by gentlemen's agreement with each other, generally administered by the ARRL and its regional organizations domestically for the FCC and within the ITU (part of the U.N.) internationally.

MARS is Military Auxiliary Radio Service, which is civilian amateurs authorized by the Army and USAF to serve as a back-up to normal military communication. It's often relied upon when the military does domestic missions like disaster relief with FEMA and the primary requirement is that you have HF capability. There is essentially no VHF or UHF MARS done since 2015 because most amateurs do not have the right equipment.

CAP is Civil Air Patrol. They almost universally have their own pool of radios since they've gone digital using P25 to remain interoperable with most civilian police and fire agencies and the USAF.

Both MARS and CAP are managed to the NTIA (National Telecommunications and Information Administration) rather than the FCC. There's chunks of spectrum carved out for civilian Federal government and military use that the FCC has no control. The NTIA falls under the Dept of Commerce and is a separate organization.

So any MARS/CAP radio has to meet the NTIA requirements, not the FCC. For the most part no VHF and UHF ham radios meet the NTIA requirements. So even if you did happen to be authorized to MARS/CAP it's very unlikely anything other than your HF radio would be a candidate to modify anyway. And even most amateur HF stations are marginally equipped since you need to be capable of HF-ALE (High Frequency Automatic Link Establishment) and not many hams go to the trouble of setting it up.

Possession of a modified radio is not illegal. Operation of a radio not correctly Type approved is exceeding your authority. Not sure legality is the right way to put it since offenses are punished with fines and seizure of equipment rather than criminal sentences.

Our ham radios are not Type approved for any service. Part 97 regulating amateur radio requires each amateur to certify his or her station is operating within the parameters. There's a rule that a linear amp can't transmit on 11m and must be tested by the FCC before being put on sale because people were modifying our amps for CB. Otherwise our radios are only tested under Part 15 rules, which any electronic device has to undergo in the U.S. This is the general EMI/EMC susceptibility and compatibility tests. To the FCC a ham radio is submitted as a "scanning receiver" for purposes of regulatory testing.

GMRS radios are tested for technical compliance to Part 95 rules. These cover things like bandwidth, channelization, lack of front panel programming. Our ham radios won't come close to complying with GMRS rules. In theory a Part 90 business radio could meet the requirements but AFAIK the only time the FCC seems to allow this would be using repeaters since no legal Part 95 GMRS repeaters exist.

I am sure @DaveInDenver is right on it all but I only understood one part: "It's never legal to use an amateur radio for GMRS, FRS".

With no disrespect to Dave, its this type of super technical information that scares people from any radio. But to others its very useful. Believe it or not, its a LOT easier to understand Dave than to try to figure it out yourself.

So, to anyone scared off by what Dave writes, set your fears aside. most all of it matters not at all for what you want to do. I'll do my best to dumb it down.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I am sure @DaveInDenver is right on it all but I only understood one part: "It's never legal to use an amateur radio for GMRS, FRS".

With no disrespect to Dave, its this type of super technical information that scares people from any radio. But to others its very useful. Believe it or not, its a LOT easier to understand Dave than to try to figure it out yourself.

So, to anyone scared off by what Dave writes, set your fears aside. most all of it matters not at all for what you want to do. I'll do my best to dumb it down.

I dump because all amateurs should at least be aware of the information. Skim or deep read, digest, ask questions and discuss. The authority you're allowed is because it's assumed you understand the rules and the technical reasons. You agreed to abide by them by asking the FCC is issue you a license.

When you do a MARS/CAP you *need* to be very careful because it opens your radio to TX on a lot of frequencies and doing so even inadvertently on a public service or military frequency is taken seriously.

The potential liability is something for the lawyers to figure out. My advice about possessing a modified radio isn't authoritative, it might actually be illegal at a some level. Not sure on that, wouldn't surprise me it it was. Operating one is no question not allowed. If we're going to switch to GMRS we all have to buy new radios, which is certainly not an attractive prospect.

Just please be careful if you do decide to remove the interlocks on your radios. Most ham radios when unlocked will potentially cause interference over these ranges of frequencies. Also realize that the tuned center frequency is only part of the changes necessary. If you leave the radio in amateur mode, e.g. wide bandwidth, you will cause a lot more havoc out of band. We're the only service still using wideband and even our half deviation is likely to overdrive FRS and narrowband GMRS filters.

Amateur radio is shoehorned and the users below and above our allocations would love to be given the spectrum.

And since this discussion is regarding GMRS, in the UHF, we're already a shared allocation that is very valuable.

I've said my piece, each ham can decide for him- or herself.

 

[J1000]

I had high hopes when I dash-installed the exact same CB in my 1993 and the RF noise is unbearable. Pretty sure its engine/dash wire noise of my 93. I have to turn squelch all the way up. My old radio shack CB was down by the transfer case shifter and worked fine.

You might have some luck making a simple LC filter for the input DC line. All it is is a decently sized capacitor and wrapping the wires around a ferrite core. Twisting up the power wires can help too. If you have old broken electronics you could probably scrounge up the pieces and make it for free.

 

[rover67]

I feel like if the discussion is GMRS/FRS vs CB it's cut and dry. Easy, low cost entry is FRS. Done. cheaper than CB, radios available in blister packs. might as well give them away. The frequencies they operate on lend themselves MUCH better to reasonable antenna sizes and good propagation in tight areas (canyons, etc). No more 9' whips and "guaranteed to work" snake oil fire sticks on ball fender mounts or shorter antennas doing magic tricks that don't work to try and radiate efficiently.... "WHY IS MY SWR SO HIGH?!?!"

People entering the sport just get a few FRS radios for next to nothing and they are up and running. You can walk around anywhere with one in your pocket and even take it skiing/hunting/scavenger hunting later. IF you want to geek out and go bigger do GMRS. Can still legally talk to FRS folks on "channels" 1-7 right? Higher wattage and more range on the other channels? Still the same shorter more reasonable antenna size for wheeling.

Now people with dual band (2m/70cm) ham radios just have to control themselves and not mod their radios for the purposes of talking on GMRS/FRS frequencies so they only need one radio in their trucks. But hey, just go get some FRS radios from the local wally world and call it done if you want to be on the up and up?

As an example, I'd MUCH rather go buy an FRS radio, throw it in my pocket and go wheeling the 40 which has no radio, than to hack in a shitty CB or a nice Ham radio for that singular event. And you think to yourself "Marco wheel the 40?! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA" yeah it'll probably never happen. I also STILL have not put a CB in the 80 I just got and built..... I REALLY don't want to waste my time doing it unless I absolutely have to (cruise moab/volunteer workday leader), they just suck sooooooooooooooooodamned bad.

 

[Inukshuk]

You have a 40?

 

[bassguyry]

Yep, I'm gonna buy a license and grab one of the Midland GMRS radios (MXT400, to be exact) - it'll work perfectly with my existing Midland T71 handhelds. I'm with Marco - CB just plain sucks. My CB will still stay in the truck, but I think the Midland GMRS will get the most use.

For those interested, I'll probably have the Yaesu up for sale in the next couple of days. Need to take some pictures of it, and I'll get it posted in the FS section of the forum.

 

[gungriffin]

@Inukshuk Is it the Midland LXT600VP3 that we were using on the run last weekend?

 

[bassguyry]

@Inukshuk - how long did it take for you to receive your GMRS license from the FCC? I just applied this afternoon and was curious on the timeframe.

 

[Inukshuk]

Yep, I'm gonna buy a license and grab one of the Midland GMRS radios (MXT400, to be exact) - it'll work perfectly with my existing Midland T71 handhelds.

I expect to have one of those MXT400s and a MXT275 to demo. Also handhelds.

@Inukshuk Is it the Midland LXT600VP3 that we were using on the run last weekend?

No, two Midland X-TALKER T290VP4 (currently $90 on Amazon for a pair) and twoLXT500VP3 (I bought from Amazon, $40 in 2017 for a pair)

@Inukshuk - how long did it take for you to receive your GMRS license from the FCC? I just applied this afternoon and was curious on the timeframe.

Next day.

 

[elkeye]

Yep, I'm gonna buy a license and grab one of the Midland GMRS radios (MXT400, to be exact) - it'll work perfectly with my existing Midland T71 handhelds.

Just remember:

Midland is planning a replacement/upgrade of the MTX400.


DjManny128

· 5 months ago
When is the MTX400 replacement launching? I saw on another question here that on spring 2020 you guys will be launching the new radio. Do you have an exact release date or month? I just don’t want to buy the MTX400 if the new one is launching soon.


Midland Radio Corporation
5 months ago

Due to events out of our control we are now looking at a late 2020 release date.


https://midlandusa.com/product/mxt400-micromobile-2-way-radio/

 

[bassguyry]

GMRS license received.

 

[Romer]

It's cool that you can get a license so easy

Help me understand why I would need another Radio with a CB, HAM Mobile and two handhelds and two FRS Radios. I would get the license but don't see the value in getting another radio type, but maybe I am missing something.

I understand GMRS has more power than FRS and that it can transmit on some FRS frequencies, or is it all of them

 

[DaveInDenver]

It's cool that you can get a license so easy

Help me understand why I would need another Radio with a CB, HAM Mobile and two handhelds and two FRS Radios. I would get the license but don't see the value in getting another radio type, but maybe I am missing something.

I understand GMRS has more power than FRS and that it can transmit on some FRS frequencies, or is it all of them

You're in the group that I completely agree probably will see zero reason to get a license or spend more money.

I brought this up because FRS and GMRS are replacing CB in 4wd circles and wondered if the Rising Sun should standardize on one system again. The reason ham was adopted in the first place was for improved sound and reliability. I'd say it's a mostly positive success but I don't know that it's completely eliminated the "why is my radio not working" part.

A significant part of that is the need to program ham radios or at least understand how to get into VFO mode and tune a frequency directly. Repeaters are something a light bulb moment when they get it or they just never even bother. There's a fair amount of mic paralysis, people afraid to do anything but talk on runs. There's also antenna issues still. Handheld radios, though, are a legitimate option unlike CB.

So GMRS kind of ticks all the boxes. I think saying FRS/GMRS vs CB is one thing and probably most new members would prefer an FRS blister pack over a CB.

So the point of this discussion was directed at the amateurs to get a feel if it's time to stop encouraging new members to get their ham licenses when they don't really want them just to get decent FM handhelds and mobiles.

 

[rover67]

You have FRS radios so pick a channel 1-7 for a run an anybody with an FRS or GMTS radio can chat

 

[DaveInDenver]

You have FRS radios so pick a channel 1-7 for a run an anybody with an FRS or GMTS radio can chat

To clarify (or perhaps obfuscate) FRS radios from 2017 would use channels 1 to 7 to talk to GMRS from 2017 on channels 9 through 15. There is a gotcha with respect to bandwidth but that's a separate issue and is still the case even after the 2017 changes.

Going forwards FRS and GMRS radios are interoperable on all 22 channels. GMRS channel numbers were realigned to match FRS and FRS got 7 more.

 

[J1000]

I got to use a GMRS handheld for the first time this weekend thanks to @Inukshuk having several of them to pass out. I was definitely impressed by it and would say it is on par with handheld HAM. The voice quality was really good and range and penetration was similar to HAM on 146.460mhz. I think the HAM had better overall range but the GMRS sounded better and clearer. Maybe that is a function of using a higher frequency. They are very convenient.

I did have an issue with interference when my truck was switched on but it seemed like after 15 or so minutes the radio would adjust to the noise floor and it got quiet. There was no adjustable squelch that I could find.

I think for new people getting their first radio should definitely consider HAM first, but if unwilling to do the legwork then GRMS is definitely the way to go. I'm on board with replacing CB with GMRS also.

It was useful to listen in on GMRS with your HAM even if you can't/shouldn't transmit. @DomOfTheDead was listening with his HAM to others on GMRS, and then replying on CB which was entertaining.

 

[Inukshuk]

Radios available to loan!

I now have up to 8 handheld Midland T71VP3, four others, and two mobile units (Midland MXT275 and MXT400) with antennas and cables available to lend. I think I need to put 12v plugs on the mobiles still.

I'd like people to use these so please do not be shy! The next two weekends I am not planning to wheel so they are available.

Conditions: You: pick up (I am in Sloan's Lake), use, sanitize (wipe with a lysol/clorox wipe?), return, and give a few thoughtful written paragraphs about experience (can be anonymous or use your name).

I am working to get a discount code as well.

I am guessing that the Micromobile MXT275 is going to be the rig of choice. At 15W its enough power for trail runs and its tiny and thus super easy to mount in any truck. The MXT400 will get more range at 40w, is about samesize as a typical HAM / CB / din car stereo

 

[bassguyry]

Just got my MXT400 and a few extra T71VP3s today. Taking them on the BBP trip this weekend.

I’m happy to loan out my T71VP3s as well (I have six total), subject to the same conditions as Daniel outlined above. I’m in Arvada, so just let me know!