Give it some heat Dave and dont break that off. Your not going to get much torque on that bolt. heat cycles and penetrating oil. go larger on the hole too just before you hit threads
Oil and Coolant Mixing
- Thread starter DaveInDenver
- Start date
Do you feel confident opening up the diameter of the hole, and drilling it deeper?
Here's my thought: As the inner diameter of the drilled hole gets larger, the material of the bolt is reduced and "flexes," more. The major/minor radius of the thread might give you enough wiggle room to overcome corrosion/crud that's building the torque required to extract. This flexing effect could also be compounded if you thermal cycle the bolt/area of the head surrounding the bolt. Apply a little heat, quench with penetrant. I believe you've already done this.
As the hole is increased in size/depth, the EZ-out will be buried deeper, increase the surface area, get a thicker portion of the extraction tool. This should at least decrease the chance of it shearing.
My experience with extractions, we would look at removing as much material as possible in the stuck fastener to get the major/minor diameter of the threads to "flex," (We're talking about .0005") and decrease the torque required to pull the fastener. I wouldn't attempt an extraction until there was ~1/8th - 1/16th of material remaining between the substrate (In this case the block) and fastener. It takes a lot of work, no doubt. I hate extractions.
It certainly doesn't help on a pressed timeline.
Here's my thought: As the inner diameter of the drilled hole gets larger, the material of the bolt is reduced and "flexes," more. The major/minor radius of the thread might give you enough wiggle room to overcome corrosion/crud that's building the torque required to extract. This flexing effect could also be compounded if you thermal cycle the bolt/area of the head surrounding the bolt. Apply a little heat, quench with penetrant. I believe you've already done this.
As the hole is increased in size/depth, the EZ-out will be buried deeper, increase the surface area, get a thicker portion of the extraction tool. This should at least decrease the chance of it shearing.
My experience with extractions, we would look at removing as much material as possible in the stuck fastener to get the major/minor diameter of the threads to "flex," (We're talking about .0005") and decrease the torque required to pull the fastener. I wouldn't attempt an extraction until there was ~1/8th - 1/16th of material remaining between the substrate (In this case the block) and fastener. It takes a lot of work, no doubt. I hate extractions.
It certainly doesn't help on a pressed timeline.
tacomaJoe73
Rising Sun Member
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I'm now at the WTF stage. I opened the hole so that that last easy out would bite more. It was biting enough that material was getting shaved off. At this point I tried driving a chisel into the bottom of the hole, turning it with vice grips.
It's about 5/16" here and has a bit of taper from the easy out. Toyota started the threads a couple of mm down, so the tops of the holes are smooth at (or actually slightly larger than) the major diameter such that the bolts would drop before hitting threads. I'm probably very, very close to threads in the block but feel pretty confident that they aren't yet seriously damaged.
Then I went ahead and drilled all the way through the slug (there's a gap under in the pockets I'd guess of maybe 10mm when the bolts are fully sent) with a 3/16" and using a smaller easy out. It's grabbing maybe 1/8" up the spline.
I was guessing about right on depth. It looks to be about 15mm to 20mm of bolt left in the block. I was originally about 10mm down and it took about another 5mm to punch through.
It STILL won't release. I don't feeling like I'm turning that hard, but hard enough it should thread out.
Like I say...
W
T
F
And for the record, I do have a bottoming tap for these threads. So chasing at this point is one thing I can do. Doing that right is not guaranteed either, however.
It's about 5/16" here and has a bit of taper from the easy out. Toyota started the threads a couple of mm down, so the tops of the holes are smooth at (or actually slightly larger than) the major diameter such that the bolts would drop before hitting threads. I'm probably very, very close to threads in the block but feel pretty confident that they aren't yet seriously damaged.
Then I went ahead and drilled all the way through the slug (there's a gap under in the pockets I'd guess of maybe 10mm when the bolts are fully sent) with a 3/16" and using a smaller easy out. It's grabbing maybe 1/8" up the spline.
I was guessing about right on depth. It looks to be about 15mm to 20mm of bolt left in the block. I was originally about 10mm down and it took about another 5mm to punch through.
It STILL won't release. I don't feeling like I'm turning that hard, but hard enough it should thread out.
Like I say...
W
T
F
And for the record, I do have a bottoming tap for these threads. So chasing at this point is one thing I can do. Doing that right is not guaranteed either, however.
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Now that you have a thru-hole, soak it with your favorite penetrating oil and maybe hit it with some heat? MAP torch is my fav for pretty much anything that needs an extra bit of persuasion.
Going to be oh so satisfying when it does give up the ghost.
Going to be oh so satisfying when it does give up the ghost.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I think at this point I'm gonna give it one last twist, just to see, and then clean up. It's beer:30 and a good place to stop and scratch the chin.
I probably should have paused a step or two back but it is what it is now.
This is one stubborn SOB. :-/
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Think Dean is smiling at you right now? I do. Smiling, not smirking.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Propane torch and Aerokroil didn't change anything. So kinda not too sure what to do next. Well, other than a shower and barley pop.
Thinking of getting a series of numbered drill bits and step this bore up to as near to the block threads as I dare and hope a cylinder crescent eventual pops out. Or maybe a left hand bit or tap. MAP/MAPP level heat might help if it's carbon gluing it. Seems like the next step is crucial, either gonna work or it's gotta be a machine shop. Wonder what the betting line is whether this twists out or demands to come out in pieces.
I turned harder than I really should've on the easy out and it gave no indication of moving, it's jammed or corroded real good like.
Cleaned up.
A good one for comparison.
A good bolt and the one that broke. The photo doesn't show it well but the broken one does have some roughness from corrosion or maybe burnt carbon at the end near the threads. Some of the others show evidence of rust at the HG level and there's burnt oil in places.
The bolt that I'm working is between #3 and #4 on the exhaust side. I haven't really done any serious cleaning but I don't see anything that jumps out as what failed. The HG came off without much effort and mostly intact.
My suspicion is the HG was leaking at #3 and the exhaust and heat cooked this bolt into place. That's only because #3 exhaust side on Imelda was also in bad shape, so sample of 1 to compare.
Whether it was turning at all or all I was doing was twisting it when releasing the head I dunno. The one opposite on the intake side is also rusty.
Thinking of getting a series of numbered drill bits and step this bore up to as near to the block threads as I dare and hope a cylinder crescent eventual pops out. Or maybe a left hand bit or tap. MAP/MAPP level heat might help if it's carbon gluing it. Seems like the next step is crucial, either gonna work or it's gotta be a machine shop. Wonder what the betting line is whether this twists out or demands to come out in pieces.
I turned harder than I really should've on the easy out and it gave no indication of moving, it's jammed or corroded real good like.
Cleaned up.
A good one for comparison.
A good bolt and the one that broke. The photo doesn't show it well but the broken one does have some roughness from corrosion or maybe burnt carbon at the end near the threads. Some of the others show evidence of rust at the HG level and there's burnt oil in places.
The bolt that I'm working is between #3 and #4 on the exhaust side. I haven't really done any serious cleaning but I don't see anything that jumps out as what failed. The HG came off without much effort and mostly intact.
My suspicion is the HG was leaking at #3 and the exhaust and heat cooked this bolt into place. That's only because #3 exhaust side on Imelda was also in bad shape, so sample of 1 to compare.
Whether it was turning at all or all I was doing was twisting it when releasing the head I dunno. The one opposite on the intake side is also rusty.
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DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Only trying to be Tenacious D. I don't know what's gonna happen ultimately but it will not be due to lack of effort.
J Kimmel
Hard Core 4+
It’s really impressive at this point
Ok here me out.... I gotta go stuff Cruise Moab packets so I'll not be able to respond real time please disregard spelling and grammatical errors as I'm typing fast.
Now that there is a through hole..
I understand thats a lot to get done by tomorrow, so if that fails drill that turd all the way out and time-sert it.
Now that there is a through hole..
- Use superfluid helium to trap an electron at the bottom of the hole.
- Do you still have that old tek oscilloscope I sold you, you might need it.
- You're going to need to harvest the synchrotrons out of about 600,000 1000W+ microwaves
- You'll need a source of vaccum, maybe you could connect a piece of strait tailpipe to the intake of your newer Tacoma to create the body of the collider...... stay with me.
- Use the leftover helium that has now phased changed back to liquid to cool the high temperature superconducting magnets... see this tutorial here (
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLFaa6RPJIU
) - Once we've a stady state beam of photons at 100+ TeV we'll need to create an aiming device to get it pointed at our lonely electron there in the blind threaded hole.
- I've tried to picture this, and I think we'll definitely need to fashion some lasers.... ans probably use some micrometers and shit to get the tailpipe accelerator aimed.
- Once we are able to get the proton beam aimed at our helium superfluid trapped electron (you could use a nanodot or quantum dot as well I suppose) tutorial here https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Quantum-DotsNanotech-in-Your-Kitchen/ ) our hope is to have a collision that temporarily opens a black hole.
- Now this black hole is going to be small, but heavy..... say 6 trillion tons.... the 22r block and the axles of a mini-truck can probably handle it.... thos OME springs however will be gonners.
- Because of the rust and oil contaminates the collision time will be fairly unpredictable. My gut tells me about 1x10^-600,000 seconds
- Now once our black hole is generated it should create enough gravity to sort of "collapse" inward the remaining bolt thread material
- This is the time to strike!!
- Give the extractor a quick (1x10^-600,00 quick) turn to release the threads.
I understand thats a lot to get done by tomorrow, so if that fails drill that turd all the way out and time-sert it.
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HDavis
Hard Core 4+
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2019
- Messages
- 1,140
With this much drilled out grab your punch or chisel and try to get it to fold in on itself. You are getting there. I've delt with this same thing except mine was upside down and I was doing it all laying on my back. The key to welding the nut on would have been using a larger nut than what you were trying to weld to it, something like an m16.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
@HDavis, that thought crossed my mind. If you look closely you'll see a small chip on the right side of the hole where my punch distorted the bolt and caught the lip of the block. It wasn't a serious attempt just a few smacks trying to see if I could get movement.
@jps8460, are your units right? Something seems off in the maths.
@jps8460, are your units right? Something seems off in the maths.
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Going off of memory from the last time I used a home collider to generate a small black hole..... could be off some magnitudes
we definitely should have put it in a drill and attempted some friction stir welding
rover67
Rising Sun Member
Do as mentioned above and try to chisel it in on itself. You kinda want one with a square edge. Or just drill it bigger and retap it. Go up to the minor diameter and send it with the tap. Don’t worry about it being off center it’ll guarantee some good threads and I bet the new head bolt will grab well. You could time cert it or something it u really wanted. Pick a thread that’s handy. I may have a tap if u can wait for it
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
BTDT OMG, I remember this time of year when I was stuffing packets...
Good luck with that remnant Dave, left handed drill bits are my friend in these situations
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
OK, I started trying to fold it over with a 1/4" pin punch and 12oz ball peen. Just took a few chips off the lip. All that is left is to drill it out?
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Drilled almost completely through at 5/16" and working it with a chisel. It's not cooperating!
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Drilled it to 5/16" all the way through and starting working with what I got. If I can work the hole towards the middle and get it to 3/8" it'll either peel out or I'll just tap the MF'er in place.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Plan is working to center it, send a 3/8" bit and chase it.
