Oil and Coolant Mixing

[DaveInDenver]

I'm 96% sure of my diagnosis but want to hash things out with experts.

1. Coolant loss.
2. No evidence of coolant or oil under the truck or on the engine.
3. Running hot (I hesitate to call it an overheat, it was running hot and he limped it home).
4. Crankcase level very high (reads as though it's roughly one quart high) showing obvious oil and water separation on the dipstick. It's red fluid sitting on top of brown oil, it's more obvious than in my craptacular photos.
5. Leaks down from 10 psi to 5 psi in a few minutes when pressurizing the cooling system.
6. Vague hissing from back of engine, hard to isolate using a long socket extension to my ear. Hey, I'm no doctor with a handy stethoscope!
7. Anecdotal mention of "Doing something wrong" by someone organized who did not make mistakes.

I did not get opportunity to do compression check, but I think based on what I suspect this would best after an oil change to hopefully minimize damage to bearings anyway.

Headgasket?

Hopefully not warped head from #3.

This is a 22R and I think another possibility that would allow these symptoms is worn through timing chain cover. Knowing history of this truck I very much doubt this but I didn't pull the valve cover to inspect. So not impossible but I never heard of rattling and he knew to look and listen for it.

The "something done wrong" is throwing me. Maybe coolant was poured into the oil and I would believe this due to brain fog. But the cooling system leak down and loss, I dunno what mistake could fit all the clues.

Happy to entertain thoughts.

Oil change and compression check? This seems self evident but since the truck is in Denver and I am not there's logistical complications.

I'm starting a list of things to do the HG under that assumption.

 

[fjc man]

Whatever course you take, don’t drive it anymore till you repair it. Bearings don’t like antifreeze.

 

[Lastresort576]

Drain the coolant and oil. Pour in the cheapest oil you can find for storage. But yeah at minimum HG failure.

 

[DaveInDenver]

So there's this. Progress!


View: https://youtu.be/aRhBRICVBHY

 

[DaveInDenver]

Awesome! Details please.

A U-Haul car hauler was rented and a very generous benefactor gave use of an F250 diesel to tow. Got it into the driveway with minimal drama using the Tacoma's winch and some burly dudes.

Did some cleanup under the hood and generally (lube the touch points, door and hood releases, you know just regular stuff), drained the crankcase, put clean oil in, turned it over by hand for about 5 minutes, drained that, filled with new oil and filter, checked cooling system pressure again and topped it with 50/50 red, pulled plugs, did compression check, new plugs, ran it for a few minutes, drained oil, new filter, new oil, ran it again for about 10 minutes, took video.

Compression before attempt at running was low and uneven but did not indicate complete HG failure. The one very low one (#2 at 115 psi) did not respond to a squirt of oil so there's still the likelihood the HG or head is in bad shape. He did say he overheated it. :-( But cylinders on either side were at FSM minimum (#1 at 140 and #3 at 145) so it's not cylinder-to-cylinder failure yet. The #4 was also a little low but at 125 psi. I thought the risk was acceptable to try and get it warm and circulate oil.

The old fluid that came out of the crankcase was not in good shape so I'm cautiously nervous about the bottom end. I hope the oil just sludged sitting with coolant in the crankcase for as long as it did.

But the old gal is back amongst the running and if I didn't know better it would be real tough to think anything was suspect from 10 feet away. It made a lot of smoke but started right up and cleaned up after just a couple of minutes of idling. It was white smoke so that also tends to suggest HG is weeping.

The idle is smooth and now the exhaust is reasonably clear. Slight tint the second run once the temp gage came up off low and idle dropped. But it hasn't been driven in anger in a while so it's bound to just want to be driven.

Next steps TBD until after holidays but I'm reservedly optimistic about a test drive soon. May do another compression check this week if time allows. The white Tacoma needs an oil change though and I need to take advantage of good weather for that, too.

 

[DaveInDenver]

It was a gutsy move on your part for sure. Any idea how long it had been since it ran?

He and I talked about it over the summer, I think at least 6 months, maybe a year. I wasn't clear about some of the order. I think it overheated and he made a brain fog mistake putting coolant into the oil fill.

I don't know for sure if he tried to run it after that but it does seem like the oil was burnt. So my thinking was that since it turned over by hand that with a few oil changes if the bottom end was ruined and would need a complete rebuild I wasn't likely to make it much worse with a few minutes of idling, exercising the rings, pushing fresh oil through the block.

I figured based on what I was seeing that I had to make a choice to either tear it all apart and put eyeballs on the inside or just trust that it's a Toyota. In any case it wasn't getting any better sitting and waiting any longer.

It's running pretty OK and other than a hollow not-really-mechanical sound that I just don't know (I locate to around the carb or air cleaner and may just be that) it really doesn't sound like the block or head need anything more than a valve lash adjustment.

Another compression test, idle up to operating temp and oil change before I try anything more.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Moved relevant posts here @wesintl @Crash @LARGEONE @rover67

Maybe a mod could clean up some of the others so as not to mess up the original thread any more.

Awesome Dave! Drive it around local and see how she does.... If it starts using coolant you'll know pretty quick

More data.

Started it after a week of sitting over the holidays. Didn't want to catch, took some cranking. Idled rough for a bit, smoothed out and started to race. That stuff could just be rich from starting and perhaps carb needs to be cleaned. Maybe.

Lots of white smoke. That's not promising. Kirsten and neighbors both thought I caught something on fire. Let it run a while still. Cooling system had pressure but wasn't pushing fluid into the overflow. May have air bubbles in the cooling system though. Hoses were getting warm but the temp gage never moved.

Plugs were fouled, coated in black soot. These are brand new, have about 30 minutes of idling on them.

Compression is now:
#1 - 160
#2 - 135
#3 - 150
#4 - 142

After pulling the plugs and doing the compression test I put them back in and it immediately started and ran. Less smoke after doing that. Has a hop in the idle.

Did one more oil and filter change.

On the last one I put a 9 ounce can of "Restore with CSL - Guaranteed To Unstick Rings!" thinking it might clean some of the sludge and coolant. It has a funky smell that I didn't like, hard to tell if there's contamination otherwise. This time just 10W30 and a Denso filter, no miracles in a can. Oil did come out pretty dark for being in the crankcase for 30 minutes of idling so maybe it helped.

Started it again today and it made a cloud. The coolant was down just a bit.

Working on getting paperwork in order for a legal, good test drive.

 

[wesintl]

Bummer Dave, I think Dean was correct. I'd pull the head. Either the HG needs to be replaced or the head is cracked.

If you have a scope you could let it sit and then scope the pistons before you start it. Most likely there will be coolant sitting in one if you have that much white smoke at start up. It might tell you which piston has the issue. Then, when you pull the head you'll know which cyl to look at. I'm assuming you would have the head checked and a valve job anyway if you don't see a HG failure.

Are those 22r's prone to cracking heads?

 

[DaveInDenver]

Bummer Dave, I think Dean was correct. I'd pull the head. Either the HG needs to be replaced or the head is cracked.

I know it to be true.

But denial ain't just a river in Africa.

Are those 22r's prone to cracking heads?

Kinda, it's a first generation alloy head, iron block engine. Like the FZ, not necessarily prone but not unusual.

The HG on Imelda hadn't failed but at 145k it was obviously not far off from the look of the degradation. The 1985 is at 134,837 miles...

What's got me (and maybe Dean, too) is the compression check. FSM says min of 142 psi and 171 psi is normal, which are sea level so ~4600' here works out to be about 150 psi, which as I recall was about what I saw after rebuilding the engine so a known (or at last presumed, the old gal is gonna turn 300k I hear so 155k on my work!) good long block.

So in a way I'm as concerned with the high reads as much as low if that's indicating oil or coolant in the chamber. Plus there's remote chances like valve lash misadjustment, oil leaking past valve stem seals.

A fella can hope, right?

 

[rover67]

Well thats a bummer but at least it's a relatively simple job?

:/

 

[Hulk]

Moved relevant posts here @wesintl @Crash @LARGEONE @rover67

Maybe a mod could clean up some of the others so as not to mess up the original thread any more.

@DaveInDenver The original thread is here. Do you want me to simply delete all the posts in the thread starting with #31 (Dec. 19) and later?

 

[DaveInDenver]

Alright, more data. Got paperwork sorted so it's blessed by the State of Colorado for me to drive legally on the highway. Yea!

Which I did in steps. First around the block a few times, then a few miles on streets and then a couple of times on the business loops. Not on actual Interstate but got 'er up to 55 MPH for a couple of miles a couple of times now.

It has lost coolant during about an hour of driving. Took about 32 ounces to top up after 10ish miles of surface streets.

Cold this morning the cooling system held 15 psi for about half an hour. No drop when I pulled the plugs.

The compression numbers. Obvious trend on #2. The plugs looked reasonably clean this morning.

It made a cloud of white smoke prior to the last two drives. It clears up after about a minute and doesn't smoke again other than a slight haze from running rich.

No smoke this morning, other than blowing out the gasoline from the compression check. It did make a white cloud after sitting for about 30 minutes at the dealer.

Coolant overflow to my delicate nose smells of fuel.

Oil level is good, doesn't look diluted. There may be a slight oil slick on the coolant but it's not slap-me-in-the-head obvious. The dip stick hasn't blown out or anything like that.

It drives good. Starts from a stop without hesitation, pulls fine, doesn't stumble or die when I lug it in too high a gear.

Slightly rough idle but all four are firing. Removing a plug wire makes a noticeable change on each at least.

Warms up nice, needle sits right in the middle of the gauge. No indication of trying to overheat.

I really can't think of any reason other than coolant weeping in the HG for the white cloud. :-(

Production is 6/85. I'm pretty sure this is a laser (e.g. late) 22R block. It should be AFAIK. I'd love independent confirmation if you are familiar with 22R lineage. That's important to know which cylinder head I might need. Not that it matters, only 85-95 castings are available so if it was an early 22R I'd be kind stuck anyway.

 

[MonPetiteShoe]

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, nor have I owned any Toyota older than 1997. Take this with a heaping spoonful of salt.

It sounds like the exhaust ports will point to an early vs. "new" '85+ block. If the exhaust ports are pear-shaped on the head, then it's 85+
Might be hard to tell without some disassembly, or some surgical borescoping.

Here is a link to a "Pirate 4x4," forum, see post #5. It references LC engineering, but it's been 404'd. (Most links I followed today were 404'd...)
The post in question reads:

"1981 - 1984 22R Cylinder Head
Square Intake Port
Round Exhaust Port
82/83 C.C. Chamber
Intake Valve Diameter 44.5mm
Exhaust Valve Diameter 36.5mm

1985 - 1995 22R-22RE Cylinder Head
Square Intake Port
Pear Shape Exhaust Port
52/54 C.C. Combustion Chamber
82/83 C.C. Chamber (Turbo) Intake Valve Diameter 44.5mm
Exhaust Valve Diameter 36.5mm"

Here's a Mud post... Confirms the pear-shaped exhaust port, and opens up more questions. (That's on-brand for Mud.)

I skimmed around some Marlin crawler forums. They corroborated the pear shape theory.

I'd say a laser engraved block, matched with some pear-shaped exhaust ports point to an '85-'95 head.
Sounds like a dry supply chain has already forced your hand on this one.

Good luck, hope it helps. I'm invested in this truck's revival.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Thanks Josh. I'm pretty familiar with 22R blocks. That snap I took of the cast on flat spot at the bottom of the block under the exhaust manifold is usually reliable visual clue but I usually cross checked Dean and he, me, on things like this. So.

I'll know for sure when I take off the manifolds. So talking aloud mostly at this point thinking about what to do. I don't have a machine shop I trust here yet so thinking I might get a head built and shipped to swap. I work literally under a shade tree outside so when I open the engine I want to work fast.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Just realized I forgot to upload a Wayback version of that LCE FAQ and a couple of other 22R related documents I had squirreled away.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Well, here's the situation.

Head is off. I'm not sure about where to go next. Looks worse than I had hoped.

Left side timing guide was broken but I don't see evidence it wore into the timing cover. The section between the bolts was still hanging in there. The top part is gone, presumed in the pan. Was hoping not to take off the pan but I guess that's not insurmountable.

A head bolt broke off. That's the worst hang up at the moment. I assume someone experienced and better equipped could deal with the bolt but I'm lost.

Rust in the passages is concerning.

I realize I was naive to think I could turn this around in a week. I'm in over my head and I think maybe a decision point not to total fubar.

I'm all ears.

Really deflated and drained at the moment, so gonna sleep on it but my inclination is advertise it for towing off. I cleared up the title and it's all legal and registered with collector plates good to 1/2029. So there's that.

 

[J Kimmel]

Drop the pan to clean it out put new timing kit in and how deep is the broken head bolt? Cant tell is that what’s sticking up? Weld a nut to it and pull it out.
If you’re to the tow away point may as well clean it up and get it back together. It’s worth a lot more. I wouldn’t get too carried away just clean the surfaces and put a new HG in

 

[RicardoJM]

Don't let the head bolt get to you. It happens. If there is enough sticking up, welding a nut may be the most straight forward. If it is recessed in the hole, center punch it, drill it out in increasing diameter and then an easy out should get it removed. See this post for some inspiration. Pay special attention to the last sentence in the 4th paragraph - .

 

[DaveInDenver]

It broke off below the surface flattish-concave.

There’s much in play here. It has to be out of the space this weekend or at least a plausible plan very soon after.

I know its fixable in principle. Failure is weighing on me. So are other things too. Wrenching isn’t therapeutic at this point.

 

[Hulk]

@RicardoJM - that's an incredible write-up. Glad you shared that again. I too have broken an EZ-Out in a broken bolt and had to deal with it. This was underneath the vehicle while swapping a transmission. I probably still have little bits of metal in my eyes. Your method was far more scientific than mine.

@DaveInDenver - I wish you were still local. I'd come over and wrench on it with you every Saturday and Tuesday (or whatever). My skills are not epic but I eventually get the job done. You need a compatriot to commiserate with during the process and insist on beer breaks.

Here's my assessment: unless you think you have a cracked block, everything else is fixable. Yeah, you're going to need to drop the pan, but this is way easier than all the stuff @Rzeppa is doing to try to weld together a new frame. You probably don't need rings and you probably don't need driveshaft bearings. You don't need to pull the block out of the vehicle.

You also need to make sure you're not aiming for PERFECT and LIKE NEW. I know the way you think, Mr. "I-bought-the-last-short-block-from-Mr.T." The engine doesn't need new everything to be good for another 200K miles.

We probably need to get a group of idiots together to come camp at your house and provide much-need enthusiam. @rover67, @Crash, @jps8460 - would any of you guys be up for this?

I guarantee I will be the least useful person there but that has never stopped me before.