Good on ya Dave. Once you figure out emissions it's not a black box. The Toyota emissions manuals help out a lot. If you do get rid of it put it in a box and keep it. I've been dealing with on the 76
Oil and Coolant Mixing
- Thread starter DaveInDenver
- Start date
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Agreed, as long as it's running OK and not impossible to fix I have no reason to remove it. I'll tell ya though the 80s Toyotas (and all cars really) with the VSVs and what-not are real hacks. It's interesting trying to follow their thought patterns to get a solution. Especially with the carb. That's probably the most frustrating part here. By 1985 it was obvious EFI was necessary to achieve the numbers so the carb on the 22R has a lot of ports to do this or that. At least it's a Federal and not a California model.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Working through issues. Been driving it around town a little. It runs hot. Not gotten close to overheat hot yet but I could see how it might eventually if I ended stuck in Aurora traffic. Next step is a new fan clutch, so fingers crossed. I left the t-stat Dean had in it and it's just a regular style, not 2-stage. Unsure of the temperature range but the temp gauge runs high-middle when it opens so I'm supposing 192 or so.
It's still got a weird whistle noise I can't figure out. It comes on about 1500 RPM but isn't totally RPM dependent. I mean in gear it will get louder if you open the throttle more. So I'm still thinking intake or exhaust leak of some sort.
It's still got a weird whistle noise I can't figure out. It comes on about 1500 RPM but isn't totally RPM dependent. I mean in gear it will get louder if you open the throttle more. So I'm still thinking intake or exhaust leak of some sort.
rover67
Rising Sun Member
Sweet! so it's drivable! New MTB shuttle rig!
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
It's oh so close. It would already be if I wasn't all paranoid about trying to figure out the temp thing. It's been hot here this week, 82 yesterday. So we're getting a taste of summer early and the last thing I need is a warped head. This is where having a local dealer worth a darn would be handy. I could have had the fan clutch done already if I didn't have to always wait for the UPS man.
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DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I don't know the answer for sure. There's two temp senders, one for the dash gauge and one for an unknown thing. No easy place to tap coolant for an aftermarket gauge, but maybe. Then again I'm not so sure I'm getting bad data either. Oil pressure on 22R/RE is a different animal. That I do not trust at all even with a gauge. The "sender" never changed from dash idiot light to needle...
Temp seems similar but not exactly like my 1991, so the sender is a real sender giving a range of values. The 1991 had a dead zone where the needle wouldn't move much around "normal" operating temp. It would come up like you'd expect from cold to (say) 180ish. It would hang the needle at 180 to 200 and it would move again from there to overheat pretty quick if necessary. This seemed to my reading to be in the gauge cluster and not a feature of the sender.
Based on what I can tell the gauge in the 1985 doesn't have a dead zone. It comes to temp and pauses where it would seem the t-stat opens. This is the equator point, needle is flat. It starts creeping up slowly but not jumping as I just tool around town. We're talking maybe a cycle or two of a stop light, surface streets. If i crank up the heat it seems to have an immediate impact. So I have no reason to believe the temp isn't only creeping up and pulling a bit of heat out with heater cranked isn't just creeping it down a couple of degrees on either end.
When I get home the fan blades spin without much resistance, so the clutch fluid is pretty obviously not thickening. I haven't taken it on Interstate to really know if good airflow helps or not. Until I get a known good clutch I'm being conservative. Like I say, cautiously hopeful. I put a brand new water pump in. Aisin, not Toyota, but still no reason to think it's not good. Made in Japan, nice gasket included. I put back in the old coolant, which was OK but did have some contamination. Took about 1/2 gallon of fresh Toyota Pink to top. Since the level isn't dropping (didn't want to waste good coolant until I knew fer sure) I'm kicking around draining that for clean Red + distilled H2O and replacing the t-stat just 'cause.
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Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
I've never done this myself and only have one Toyota with a fan clutch, but years ago I read on the LCML that you could buy the silicone oil from Toyota and refill your fan clutch when it quit engaging. I know the fan clutch on my 60 works fine because at highway speeds you can hear it cycle on and off, it's pretty loud.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
@Rzeppa the Toyota part number for fan clutch silicone oil is 08816-03001. This is an 18mL bottle and it takes 50mL of fluid to fill the clutch so you'd need three bottles. The price for each bottle is usually about $20 so that's $60 for oil. Attached PDF for fan clutch rebuild procedure.
I instead bought an Aisin FCT-003, as you know Aisin ought to be the OEM cross to Toyota, in this case that to the part number 16210-38060 that the EPC shows. The same part just not in a Toyota box. That cost $49 plus shipping and tax, same price with less mess.
It gets here tomorrow according to tracking so the jury is still out.
However, I bought the Aisin water and oil pumps and they were both made in Japan and I have no evidence to suggest they were not the same as the Toyota part. The only difference is where "TOYOTA" is in the casting there was a flat instead with an Aisin label. OTOH, I did an OSK timing kit and it was all good quality, made in Japan but some parts of it did seem to differ in appearance from what Toyota sells. So there seems to be some variation going directly with the OEM as aftermarket suppliers sometimes.
I instead bought an Aisin FCT-003, as you know Aisin ought to be the OEM cross to Toyota, in this case that to the part number 16210-38060 that the EPC shows. The same part just not in a Toyota box. That cost $49 plus shipping and tax, same price with less mess.
It gets here tomorrow according to tracking so the jury is still out.
However, I bought the Aisin water and oil pumps and they were both made in Japan and I have no evidence to suggest they were not the same as the Toyota part. The only difference is where "TOYOTA" is in the casting there was a flat instead with an Aisin label. OTOH, I did an OSK timing kit and it was all good quality, made in Japan but some parts of it did seem to differ in appearance from what Toyota sells. So there seems to be some variation going directly with the OEM as aftermarket suppliers sometimes.
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DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
New fan clutch didn't seem to make any difference in how it's operating. It doesn't seem to want to overheat but it was getting up to about 2/3rd on the gauge in town running with upper-50s temps and drizzle. So not exactly harsh conditions.
Think new t-stat and fresh coolant. The radiator doesn't seem old and is a Toyota, so maybe a good flush is needed, could just a lot of crud in it.
Think new t-stat and fresh coolant. The radiator doesn't seem old and is a Toyota, so maybe a good flush is needed, could just a lot of crud in it.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Yeah, definitely. Flipping through the FSM I did trip across the multimeter test for the sender so I'll do that. It's a one-wire, nothing fancy.
Thinking about this the t-stat I think (this is now from memory) is 88C/192F and that looks to be what the EPC part number returns. I found an Aisin 82C/180F by looking for 1984 and older. I've found more than once 1985 requires a bit of digging. It's a weird transition year for 22R and some catalogs don't uniformly cover it, even Toyota's.
I think 180F is actually the right one for a 22R. The 192F is I think for 22R-E (and I suspect usually paired with the associated "dead zone" gauge). So I may simply be chasing a non-issue. It does seem a little like it's just varying around a higher temp now that I feel a little more confident driving it further.
But I dunno, 1985 was the year they changed deck height so maybe the higher temp is right regardless of fuel and ignition system. But those things carried over and some very early 22R in 1985 could still be old blocks, some (most I assume and like this one being 6/85 production) are new style block.
I think I'm going to keep driving it around town until that gets here. At that point I'll drain coolant so I can pull the sender out of the intake and do that bench test, too. Lower temp t-stat, flush and new coolant. If that doesn't do anything then I *may* move on the radiator, have it rodded out or maybe see if I can find a new CSF. At that point there would be nothing old in the cooling system left so I'd be a little more confused.
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rover67
Rising Sun Member
The higher operating temp was maybe for emissions improvements?
I’d verify it’s running at the temp you think it is but also would do a thermostat probably anyways. Also sometimes bubbles can be hard to get out. Does the temp gauge show a steady state at a higher temp or keep climbing and you have to shut it down to stop it? Cheap gauge from anywhere would be an easy way to simply verify what you are seeing but also a check with boiling water and stock sensor would get you there for free.
I’d verify it’s running at the temp you think it is but also would do a thermostat probably anyways. Also sometimes bubbles can be hard to get out. Does the temp gauge show a steady state at a higher temp or keep climbing and you have to shut it down to stop it? Cheap gauge from anywhere would be an easy way to simply verify what you are seeing but also a check with boiling water and stock sensor would get you there for free.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Yup Marco, the temp gauge climbs from cold to operating smooth and pauses before it starts to creep up and starts to fluctuate a little up and down. I haven't seen it really start to climb into danger zone yet.
It's been a while since I had a true needle, probably Y2K in the FJ40 so I may just be too worried about it staying steady and flat like it did in the dead zone gauge of the 1991 along with what I recall Dean told me happened. I'm just really focused on not overheating it. But I'm also not 100% sure it ever really did prior to the head gasket failing (which is not in doubt) and subsequent changes such as a wrong temp t-stat may have just confused things, such as how bad or if it even did overheat.
I'll report back with the 180F t-stat. But since the old fan clutch and a brand new one act the same I'm inclined to think the cooling system isn't completely fouled. And like you say, probably should have just done a t-stat anyway.
Coolant level has stayed good and I'm not too worried about air. The needle doesn't jump big steps and it hasn't sucked anything in or out of the overflow in a few runs now. Heat in the cab is good.
It's been a while since I had a true needle, probably Y2K in the FJ40 so I may just be too worried about it staying steady and flat like it did in the dead zone gauge of the 1991 along with what I recall Dean told me happened. I'm just really focused on not overheating it. But I'm also not 100% sure it ever really did prior to the head gasket failing (which is not in doubt) and subsequent changes such as a wrong temp t-stat may have just confused things, such as how bad or if it even did overheat.
I'll report back with the 180F t-stat. But since the old fan clutch and a brand new one act the same I'm inclined to think the cooling system isn't completely fouled. And like you say, probably should have just done a t-stat anyway.
Coolant level has stayed good and I'm not too worried about air. The needle doesn't jump big steps and it hasn't sucked anything in or out of the overflow in a few runs now. Heat in the cab is good.
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MDH33
Hard Core 4+
Have you checked the block, head and radiator Temps with an infrared thermometer? The dash guage is pretty inaccurate.
rover67
Rising Sun Member
Remind us what the issue was with your motor when it was getting hot after the head job?
MDH33
Hard Core 4+
It was reading hot both before and after. The valve stem seals, guides and seats were shot. It ran better after the head job but guage still said hot. I swapped out temp sender and thermostat with no difference. Finally checked with infrared and it wasn't overheating. The guage was just not registering correct. I don't know about the '85, but the Stout guage is adjustable. Once I took it apart I could see how to set it. There's one adjustment to zero it at cold start temp, and another to set running temp, which is ~200°F on the 3RB.
Not suggesting this is Dave's issue, but these guages are pretty crude, so I wouldn't be surprised if the accuracy was off.
Here's a pic where you can see the adjustment teeth. It took several rounds of fiddling to get it dialed, but now I'm confident it's as accurate as it can be. I still carry the infrared thermo and check it after long drives just to confirm.
Hijack off
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DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
That is not a hijack. That Stout gauge may not be lab accurate but looks like a decent mechanism. Like what you'd find on any good automotive or really industrial gauges.
Believe it or not, an IR temp gun is not something I have around. Have to see about getting one. That's not the first time I've read that as a suggested troubleshooting step, makes total sense.
Believe it or not, an IR temp gun is not something I have around. Have to see about getting one. That's not the first time I've read that as a suggested troubleshooting step, makes total sense.
Have a meat thermometer? Boil some water, put in a vessel, run out to garage, put thermometer in, put temp sender in and see what the gauge reads. Hacky, yeah. But zero cost, assuming you have a meat thermometer or any other thermometer that is known-reasonably accurate.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I have a thermocouple adapter for my DMM. It's accurate but slow to register and inconvenient. I've never needed an IR temp gun personally but that would be easier for sure. I kind of wish I still had access to the FLIR machines at the last job.
The FSM gives an expected resistance at 140F (146.6 ohms, +26.5/-4.0) and 239F (24.3 ohms, +1.3/-1.8) for the sender. The tolerance is interesting. I think it suggests it's between -7% to +18% in error across that range.
So to Martin's point all you can say is that when it hits the red it's really friggin' hot. Under that all you can say with certainty is that when you turn the key on in the morning the lower line is whatever it is outside. Between the lines it's just something sort of between ambient and less than 240F. Sitting at the steady-ish point is what the t-stat is and if that's 88C the needle might show the same thing at 82C or 103C depends on your actual sender, gauge and how they're working or aged. For one thing I took the sender out when I cleaned the intake and that alone could have cleaned the threads and the wire blade so the circuit is now free of 40 years of corrosion. That was a major change to the circuit.
Nevermind that the t-stat isn't a precision thing either.
Using boiling water and thermometer/thermocouple as a reference to set the gauge is interesting. That alone would be a super useful thing to do. Pull the sender with key on, plop it in hot water and mark a line on the gauge. That gives you a highly meaningful reference for 95C/203F (-0.5C per 500 ft in elevation), so you really don't even need a second reference other than to know exactly how much it's cooled after taking it off the stove.
I've never really thought about it this much before. Oh, yeah, I knew it in abstract but never really bothered to look this much into it.
The FSM gives an expected resistance at 140F (146.6 ohms, +26.5/-4.0) and 239F (24.3 ohms, +1.3/-1.8) for the sender. The tolerance is interesting. I think it suggests it's between -7% to +18% in error across that range.
So to Martin's point all you can say is that when it hits the red it's really friggin' hot. Under that all you can say with certainty is that when you turn the key on in the morning the lower line is whatever it is outside. Between the lines it's just something sort of between ambient and less than 240F. Sitting at the steady-ish point is what the t-stat is and if that's 88C the needle might show the same thing at 82C or 103C depends on your actual sender, gauge and how they're working or aged. For one thing I took the sender out when I cleaned the intake and that alone could have cleaned the threads and the wire blade so the circuit is now free of 40 years of corrosion. That was a major change to the circuit.
Nevermind that the t-stat isn't a precision thing either.
Using boiling water and thermometer/thermocouple as a reference to set the gauge is interesting. That alone would be a super useful thing to do. Pull the sender with key on, plop it in hot water and mark a line on the gauge. That gives you a highly meaningful reference for 95C/203F (-0.5C per 500 ft in elevation), so you really don't even need a second reference other than to know exactly how much it's cooled after taking it off the stove.
I've never really thought about it this much before. Oh, yeah, I knew it in abstract but never really bothered to look this much into it.
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