Lets discuss off road recovery gear

DouglasVB

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Ah yes I've got a thimble on the end. I always thought a thimble was the big thing you can put on the end of a witch line in place of a hook. I was wondering about my thimble getting crushed on a hard pull.... Sounds like that's a real concern.

So you're just, as my students say, raw dogging the winch line in a loop without any protection? I thought that there was a minimum bend radius on synthetic line?

It would simplify my life to switch to a loop. I want the entire winch line inside the bumper and I can't do that right now with the thimble and hawse fairlead.
 

Inukshuk

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Ah yes I've got a thimble on the end. I always thought a thimble was the big thing you can put on the end of a witch line in place of a hook.
The "big thing you can put on the end of a witch line in place of a hook" is also called a thimble. Its always irked me that we see ropes made with basic thimbles in loops like the style pictured above and then install another thimble with a pin through the rope's thimble so we can attach a shackle. Years ago I thought "why not just a screw-pin-bow shackle in the rope loop?" Indeed, some had done that before.

Also, why not a hook? Nothing wrong with hooks. Easy on and off. That same feature means they "can" fall off.

I was wondering about my thimble getting crushed on a hard pull.... Sounds like that's a real concern.
Gusseted thimbles eliminate that. Strong non-gusseted thimbles usually don't crush.

I thought that there was a minimum bend radius on synthetic line?
There is a minimum to maintain full load rating. After that its about de-rating.
"Diameters on fixed pin terminations should be at least 3 times the rope diameter, i.e., the bending radius for 1/2” diameter rope should be 1-1/2 inches." https://www.lift-it.com/info-rope-use-inspection
Plain rope-on rope requires a load de-rate: https://risingsun4x4club.org/xf/threads/official-synthetic-winch-line-splicing-thread.28948/page-2#:~:text=all with soft.-,Might buy one for looping around things like a slider,avoid any hard corners regardless.
If you have 5,000 lb load on a 3/8 dyneema rated at 17,660 you are ok. Even a soft abrasion guard (mine being cordura folded with veclro has some stiffness) helps increase radius. A thimble is better for the rope. One guy I know has the loop sized so he can slip a thimble in.
Pin diameter for a standard 3/4-inch screw pin bow shackle is 7/8 inch. Bow is 3/4. 2:1 on 3/8 dyneema.

It would simplify my life to switch to a loop. I want the entire winch line inside the bumper and I can't do that right now with the thimble and hawse fairlead.
Do it. And get a roller fairlead ....
and ...... that's all for today!
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DaveInDenver

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There is a minimum to maintain full load rating. After that its about de-rating.
"Diameters on fixed pin terminations should be at least 3 times the rope diameter, i.e., the bending radius for 1/2” diameter rope should be 1-1/2 inches." https://www.lift-it.com/info-rope-use-inspection
Plain rope-on rope requires a load de-rate: https://risingsun4x4club.org/xf/threads/official-synthetic-winch-line-splicing-thread.28948/page-2#:~:text=all with soft.-,Might buy one for looping around things like a slider,avoid any hard corners regardless.
If you have 5,000 lb load on a 3/8 dyneema rated at 17,660 you are ok. Even a soft abrasion guard (mine being cordura folded with veclro has some stiffness) helps increase radius. A thimble is better for the rope. One guy I know has the loop sized so he can slip a thimble in.
Pin diameter for a standard 3/4-inch screw pin bow shackle is 7/8 inch. Bow is 3/4. 2:1 on 3/8 dyneema.
The rule of thumb is to never go below 1:1 bend radius as a minimum (e.g. the bend is the same radius as the rope diameter), which is the approximate 50% point and less would risk shearing. Of course avoid any hard corners regardless.

The thing to remember mainly is that bend radii exist and you have to consider the derating you might have to do. If your force is 9,000 lbs and you have a 47,000 lbs soft shackle that is bent sharply down to 50% efficiency then you're still fine on paper.

You could do something like Burke with various things, like a rolled up magazine or a flashlight, to support the rope and preventing a knot in situations like that. This is shortening the rope IIRC but the principle looping eyes is similar.
I'd like to highlight a clarification in that linked thread where I said 1:1.

That is an absolute minimum, meaning any tighter than this risks kinking or shearing fibers. The bend radius of 1:1 may mean you're making a knot on the rope and have to rate it as such.

Note, too, I said knot. Knots and splices are distinct techniques and indeed not all knots and splices are equal.

Now that said, I am also likely incorrect in that assessment of a soft shackle. Samson suggests eye-to-eye may retain as much as 90% breaking strength.

The minimum normal use (also should be considered absolute minimum in context) radius you need to retain full rated strength is Daniel's 3:1 and Samson for Amsteel recommends 5:1 if you can.


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DaveInDenver

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I noticed the other day that there's a little abrasion on the winch line around the eyelet where it rubbed against the ground when I dug my front bumper into some terrain due to its poor approach angle. So I know I need to cut that part out.
Abrasion is normal and expected.

I think a salient point Samson makes is with 12-strand such as Amsteel Blue each strand carries 8.33% of the load ideally. Thus during your inspection consider this criteria. If one strand seems excessive worn or at risk of breaking will losing ~8% of the strength be a problem?

Each strand is woven from Dyneema filaments, which are themselves on the order of 20 µm in diameter. Each strand is made up with thousands of filaments.

I know you can understand how having a handful of filaments fraying is marginal in the overall strength. That's why it's a subjective assessment of where normal wear becomes unacceptable.

Using completely arbitrary numbers, if you have 20 cut filaments that causes a "fuzzy" look and it took 5,000 filaments to make a strand that might mean you're down 0.4% in strength. If "severe" is 200 cut filaments then you're into 4% loss, which is getting significant (although still only 0.3% theoretically of the overall in 12-strand), not to mention how many are compromised that you can't see or when it's more than one strand with cut filament.

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Inukshuk

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Regarding radius: Its a continuum relationship between radius and load. Lets say we have common 3/8 Dyneema:
  1. For our tightest radius, lets say a 1/4 inch titanium rod in double shear (so assume the rod will not fail). Apply 10 LBS force. Rope Holds. Keep increasing load and it will fail well below the MBS of 17,600. This is why you do not want synthetic rope on a sharp corner. Sharp corner = cutting ability BUT ALSO a tight radius.
  2. Progress to a 1:1 aka 3/8 radius. Keep increasing load and it will fail somewhere below the MBS of 17,600.
  3. Achieve a 5:1 radius. Keep increasing load and it will fail at or above the MBS of 17,600.

RE Cow Hitch
- this came up recently with Brennan's Garage. He like to cow hitch a soft shackle on the end of his winch line to a soft loop. (I don't think it accomplishes anything for any good reason, but like everything there are preferences and used right it is fine.) He never addressed de-rate and disagreed with what I said it was, so I went to the source - for the specific material in discussion - Dyneema, Samson Rope:

Hi Daniel,​
We have tested 3/8” diameter Dyneema rope in a cow-hitch arrangement and found that is retains ~85% efficiency when tested under laboratory conditions according to methodology consistent with the rope’s classification. This lab testing aligns with the rule of thumb in the rope industry for cow-hitching (85% strength).​
Michael Botterbusch
Application Engineering Supervisor​
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Warning: Bill Burke taught us if you cow hitch two winch extensions or straps, put a rolled up Overland Journal in the joint or you may never be able to separate the lines.
 

DouglasVB

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For what it's worth, here's what I'm looking at on my winch line.

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Corbet

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@Inukshuk

Daniel, what is your opinion of this bridle product? I don’t currently carry a dedicated piece of bridle rigging. Now that I wheel with a trailer often I’m considering adding one to my kit to reduce the loads on single recovery points. This one at 6’ seems kind of short for us full sized wagons. If I had to rig a bridle right now I’d use one of my tree savers.


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And for anyone who wants the fancy FID, it’s currently on sale at Factor 55. (20% off) But like Marco said a pen does the job. I have this FID and it does work good.

 
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DaveInDenver

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I have a Factor55 fid and I prefer a pen or dedicated fid, maybe a bit of tape to hold.

The pulling mesh is kind of an annoying solution to a non-problem. It snags as you push it through, so you have to tape over to smooth and that makes things more bulky than necessary.

I keep it in the truck tools for a couple of scenarios. One is not knowing what size rope one might encounter but mainly that you can't predict if the slice is going to be on worn, muddy rope where the aggressive grip might be of benefit.

@Corbet, I have a short length of rope I use for a bridle. My reasoning, which I don't know if it's valid or not, is so I can run a block as the connection and it can roll back and forth on the bridle, self equalizing and centering. A neighbor of mine had a huge diameter chunk of wire rope made with two eyes crimped for his. It's got to be a 9/16" at least wire rope. It's hefty considering he has a 1st gen Tacoma.
 

DaveInDenver

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A few posts back folks were talking about various hardware.

I attached my rope to the drum using one of these Winchline.com gadgets. It's basically a chain link with an eyelet for the bolt. You leave a tail and roll about 10 wraps on top of it.

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drum_connector_started.jpg

I thought of taking it off and doing a friction hitch. That might be better but what holds me back is the force if I happen to unspool and load that loop. Can that knot squeeze and end up like a noose on the end of the drum? Isn't the limitation being wall strength when doing a pipe hitch like that? This link will shear that 1/4" bolt before I could ever collapse the drum or break the axle.

Vice versa, this attachment can't spin on the drum. It seems like that knot could pull on the tail. Can that end up with the tail going diagonal and reduce how well it's retained under the holding wraps? I know Euler-Eytelwein suggests that with 10 wraps the tension to cause that would probably have to exceed the winch's capacity. I'm more thinking when trying to load the rope does that knot hold in place well enough without spinning the first couple of wraps to let you get up to tension?

This way seems closer to how Warn intended, at least in The Dark Ages when my XD9000 was made. I know, I know, this would be the 8th mistake of things that have gone sideways.

The biggest hurdle is that the winch on my ARB isn't super easy to get at to tie the knot and I figure deterministic/positive bolted connection >> than theoretical/unknown knotted connection.

There you go, another small window in my distorted way of thinking.

This is the thimble I spliced into my rope. I've been very happy with it. I have an ARB and it pulls in nice and protected on the rollers. It's hella old so it's not radiused for soft shackles but good old bow shackles sit in real nice.

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Corbet

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I've still got some middle section of my old rope. Thinking I'll just make a bridle out of that. It's 3/8" Amsteel. As is my winchline. So same strength. Finding some sort of sleeve to duplicate the Factor55 until would be nice. But then I could make it 10' long and have a little less triangulation for my application.
 

Inukshuk

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@Inukshuk

Daniel, what is your opinion of this bridle product? I don’t currently carry a dedicated piece of bridle rigging. Now that I wheel with a trailer often I’m considering adding one to my kit to reduce the loads on single recovery points. This one at 6’ seems kind of short for us full sized wagons. If I had to rig a bridle right now I’d use one of my tree savers.

You’re right that 6 feet is a little short.
It’s all about sling angle. Anything smaller than 30° increases the load a lot.
Quite an excessive amount of information can found at this website: https://www.mazzellacompanies.com/learning-center/measuring-sling-angles/

Most any endless loop is going to be excessively strong for our applications. Key here as you said the purpose of the sling is to halve a load on a recovery point. Pulling force in the direction of the vehicle tires as well as pulling force between the two recovery points, that’s the real concern here.

You ideally want that angle at 60° or above.

Glad to see here one connection on the bumper going to the pulling force from the winch going back to the bumper. It’s critically important not to have a section of or bridal between the two recovery points. It can crush a frame.
 

Inukshuk

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I've still got some middle section of my old rope. Thinking I'll just make a bridle out of that. It's 3/8" Amsteel. As is my winchline. So same strength. Finding some sort of sleeve to duplicate the Factor55 until would be nice. But then I could make it 10' long and have a little less triangulation for my application.
Or make yourself to 6 to 10 foot sections. A bridal doesn’t have to be one piece. I carry Safe-Xtract safety lanyards that can be used for this and tree straps are also great for bridling.
 

Inukshuk

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Is showing my ideal thimble.
It’s only issue is that it sticks straight out from the fair lead when you stow.
It’s simple. No extra parts of pins. Won’t pull through your fairlead.
 

Corbet

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After my earlier post I spotted these also on Factor55’s web store. A 10’ bridle, this one rated for my needs. But a “Kinetic Energy” bridle? This seems like an accident waiting to happen if anything fails while winching.

 

Inukshuk

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After my earlier post I spotted these also on Factor55’s web store. A 10’ bridle, this one rated for my needs. But a “Kinetic Energy” bridle? This seems like an accident waiting to happen if anything fails while winching.

"Kinetic" the way its used here means an implement of nylon that has lots stretch. As opposed to Polyester that has minimal stretch in our applications.
The issue is shock loading. Not elasticity or "stored energy" but rather application of the recovery force over a longer period of time.
There IS, contrary to lots of information out there, a place for recovery gear that stretches to be used in winching. But its a bit of an advanced skill set.
In the calculation consider what load imparts what amount of stretch into a stretchy product. That 7/8 KERR is NOT stretching 30% at its WLL of 5,660 lbs. Bridle with it to move a load with a 2,500 LBS stuck assessment you are loading EACH to 1,250 and they function much like polyester - effectively no stretch. May as well take the 20' KERR or ARB recovery strap (nylon) you already have and use it.

PS. Another reason two straps each having loops at both ends has an advantage is you don't have rope on rope sliding.

Ideal bridle: 15-20' of a 3/8 or 1/2 dyneema with a pulley block to the winch or kinetic rope so it can center itself.

We should do a class!
 

DaveInDenver

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After my earlier post I spotted these also on Factor55’s web store. A 10’ bridle, this one rated for my needs. But a “Kinetic Energy” bridle? This seems like an accident waiting to happen if anything fails while winching.

Understand that from a safety perspective how rigging is rated (such as ASME B30.9 that covers slings, what we call straps) makes no distinction between polyester and nylon in terms of synthetic slings. The working load limit is still determined by using a 5:1 design factor just like rope and shackles.

The amount of stretch is irrelevant in terms of safety. Rigging manuals may warn that using nylon rather than steel or polyester require different procedure due to the intentional choice. They're talking about things you lift may bounce or you'll have to check hold downs more often. This is the trade-off for using nylon to reduce jarring. When used per WLL a nylon sling isn't stretching much, enough to cushion.

How we use nylon straps and ropes "dynamically" is a grey area. We're making a choice to use a piece of equipment that could be under rated (per industry WLL) by choice to take advantage of its stretch characteristics. Reputable suppliers will still give you the breaking and suggested WLL that is not per industry standards, typically about 3:1, so that it does the function. This is usually based on GVWR and can't account for friction, velocity and acceleration, so it can only be a guideline.

Notice that Warn/Factor55 is doing 5:1 for a 7/8" rope by calling it WLL 5,660 lbs. It will not stretch 30% at that WLL. For a bridle that's not a bad choice. You have a double leg sling (if the bridle is long enough to achieve 60° angle you are into 2x choker rating and that gets you to 170% the single leg sling WLL) with each end on a closed tie point (presumably), minimal stored energy (not much stretch) and the cushion is actually reducing force peaks from the winch rope. So the risk of something going far or fast in a failure is small and the benefit is worthwhile.

Climbers operate in the same grey zone with dynamic ropes we use for lead climbing. In that case the dynamic nature is actually critical to reducing the potential to injure people. A rope that does not stretch enough can be so abrupt in a fall to break necks and spines or cause internal organ injury.

The gear climbers use is basically the same as arborists and SAR. Those users have ropes and other gear that is substantially heavier because of this. They do not operate close to margins. But they also don't take the same risks. They'd never climb above an anchor point or have a slack rope like recreational climbers do. In cases where they might, like fall protection for workers or via ferrata, there is a specifically designed shock absorber that tears apart to reduce force. This is a fuse, it works once. Climbers have those, too. Like the Yates Screamer.

In 4WD we get away with being in the margin because we're just amateur, individual dudes.

I've occasionally wondered how a professional company can offer to recover you with a yank like some of those guys on Youtube. Wouldn't they be subject to some sort of best practices, tow truck licensing, OSHA and liability?
 
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