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What have you done to your rig today?

Cruisertrash

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
2,019
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Denver
@DaveInDenver I love this stuff. I teach a class for building a simple electronic circuit that's aimed at folks that have never picked up an iron before, so I spend a little bit talking about proper technique and avoidance of cold solder joints. I have perused that same NASA document and actually cribbed a couple images for use in my own handout. If you're gonna learn how to do it, may as well learn the way NASA specs. And to your final point, mechanical security is as important as the physical bond solder provides for a lot of cases, especially vibrational environments like a vehicle where a solder joint can be prone to cracking from mechanical stress.
 

MountainGoat

Club Treasurer
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Cruise Moab Committee
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Evergreen, CO
The battery of literally unknown age in the 80 finally crapped out. Wouldn't even take a jump. So I ran down to Costco and got a brand spankin' new Interstate to make the old girl happy again. Now she purrs like a kitten. :)
 

Romer

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Centennial, Colorado
Recovered the seats in my 40
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rushthezeppelin

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2022
Messages
1,170

rushthezeppelin

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2022
Messages
1,170
Per NASA-STD-8739.3, " Soldered Electrical Connections"

View attachment 109704
Wetting is the term used to describe solder movement and it's like it sounds, how it "wets" or flows. You're looking for the solder to easily turn from solid to liquid, flow smoothly into the joint and cool evenly.

Solder is a actually not simple topic but suffice to say it generally refers to using an alloy of lead, zinc, tin or/and other elements to make a substance that melts onto the base material, in this case copper. It's not welding, where the base material is actually molten but is hot enough to make the solder become essentially a metal glue that grabs the copper at the molecular level. It's the same as brazing. Copper melts at 1,073°C while most solder becomes liquid at about 300°C to 400°C. It's technically going from solid to liquid and refreezing into a solid, but it's a bit more complicated due to the alloy needing all it's component elements to do so at the same temperature going up and down, so there's some black magic that happens in finding the right ratios that don't end up with debris or cracking or other failures.

The key is the solder has to flow in and all around the copper at an atomic level. It's a permanent modification of the wire, e.g. when you "tin" the wire the solder will have flowed into the copper to the point that you will never be able to remove it all. It's like if you dye your clothes (or wash your white socks with a forgotten red shop rag). You can wash and wash and wash and only make the socks fainter pink but never white again.

To make it even more confusing is you add a flux to assist in the wetting and cleaning. Once a copper wire is made it begins to oxidize immediately. Sometimes the manufacturer will tin the wire as they make it, in which case it's already got a base coat of solder. Often they will not. In this case the flux when you heat it re-exposes the copper to help the solder adhere at a molecular level.

The whole process is patting your head, rubbing your belly to get right. You touch the iron to the joint, it heats rapidly but not to the point of damaging the wire or something else (melt a ton of insulation, for example, or making the flux into charcoal), then you touch the solder, it flows sufficiently, you remove the solder feed and iron and it cools quickly but not too quick into a smooth joint. There's about a thousand ways to go sideways.

In any case, this is an extreme example of not having enough heat resulting in a cold joint. The joint never reached high enough temperature for the solder to fully bond with the copper. The solder did melt a little but did not flow, e.g. wet, correctly. It might work but it's not a reliable joint for a lot of reasons.

View attachment 109705

This is what happens when you have enough heat to completely solder the copper conductors.

View attachment 109706

As an additional point no one cares about, there's actually a preferred (or in aerospace, "right") way to make a butt splice by twisting two wires and soldering for reliability.

View attachment 109710
While my joints look a lot like the second photo I guess only time will tell. At least it's a fairly non essentially component and something that I don't think would start a fire if it failed and the resistance spikes :rolleyes: I will definitely consult y'all on my next wiring job to make sure I'm correctly setup with tools (would it even be worth getting a flat tip for my 30w or should I just look at getting a more powerful iron right off the bat?).
 

DaveInDenver

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Joined
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Grand Junction
While my joints look a lot like the second photo I guess only time will tell. At least it's a fairly non essentially component and something that I don't think would start a fire if it failed and the resistance spikes :rolleyes: I will definitely consult y'all on my next wiring job to make sure I'm correctly setup with tools (would it even be worth getting a flat tip for my 30w or should I just look at getting a more powerful iron right off the bat?).
If it works then it works, so what you have is probably fine for smaller wire. I prefer a wider tip for wire over a pencil tip.

If you're looking for a *good* iron that will serve for almost any typical repair use I highly recommend this Hakko.

https://kiesub.com/product/hakko-fx-601-adjustable-temperature-soldering-iron/

It's 67 watts adjustable (you set intended temperature to match your solder) and uses Hakko's standard T19-type tips, so it will share tips with their bench soldering stations so there's a large range of options. Some that will work for wire, some that are very small that you could use to even repair circuit boards.

https://kiesub.com/product-category/soldering-equipment/solder-tips/hakko-t19-solder-tips/

That's a pretty pricey option, though, so honestly the plain 75W Weller soldering gun from any hardware store is fine for wire-to-wire soldering of normal sizes (e.g. 18 AWG up to perhaps 4-to-8ish AWG). It's two step, 25W at one click of the trigger and 75W at full in. It would probably be too much for very small wire (melt insulation) and might struggle if you try with battery cables.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Weller-...versal-Accessory-Kit-7200PKSWCACCMB/317954416
 
Last edited:

Rzeppa

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Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
8,267
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Kittredge CO, USA
I stand by my trusty Weller WTCPN. The tip you install determines the temperature, (as well of course the mechanical geometry of the tip, there are many to choose from). This is the soldering station of choice across multiple electronic device manufactures I have worked for for over 4 decades.

Something not mentioned upthread, and this should probably have its own thread by itself, is care of your tip. As Dave pointed out above, copper starts oxidizing instantly and solder iron tips are pretty much the same, as soon as you start heating them to operating temperature they get a nasty oxide coating. The flux is your only hope, Obiwan Kenobi.

You protect the tip with solder itself, in the case of electronics, rosin core solder. You cover the working portion of the tip with solder at all times, except the moment you wipe it in the (wetted) sponge. Then you put the amount of solder required to coat the business end and go to town. This is an acquired skill and takes many (in my case many thousands) of soldering operations to get just right. As soon as you are done soldering, we are talking within seconds, you cover the business end with sacrificial solder to keep oxygen away from it. The turn the power off and let it cool until next use. ALWAYS KEEP THE TIP COVERED IN SOLDER TO PROTECT IT FROM OXIDATION!

I have trained hundreds of electronics assemblers and techs over the years, and inspected many hundreds of thousands (millions maybe?) of solder joints, both hand soldered and wave soldered.

FYI, the Weller I mentioned above is 30W and ONLY siuted to electronic use such as circuit boards and smaller automotive projects. It can be adapted to SMT depending on tip but there are other tools that are better for SMT. For things like battery cable to terminals and winch cables and stuff you will need a MUCH higher power. I actually use a propane torch for stuff like that. Basically like sweating copper pipes for plumbing.
 

rushthezeppelin

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2022
Messages
1,170
I stand by my trusty Weller WTCPN. The tip you install determines the temperature, (as well of course the mechanical geometry of the tip, there are many to choose from). This is the soldering station of choice across multiple electronic device manufactures I have worked for for over 4 decades.

Something not mentioned upthread, and this should probably have its own thread by itself, is care of your tip. As Dave pointed out above, copper starts oxidizing instantly and solder iron tips are pretty much the same, as soon as you start heating them to operating temperature they get a nasty oxide coating. The flux is your only hope, Obiwan Kenobi.

You protect the tip with solder itself, in the case of electronics, rosin core solder. You cover the working portion of the tip with solder at all times, except the moment you wipe it in the (wetted) sponge. Then you put the amount of solder required to coat the business end and go to town. This is an acquired skill and takes many (in my case many thousands) of soldering operations to get just right. As soon as you are done soldering, we are talking within seconds, you cover the business end with sacrificial solder to keep oxygen away from it. The turn the power off and let it cool until next use. ALWAYS KEEP THE TIP COVERED IN SOLDER TO PROTECT IT FROM OXIDATION!

I have trained hundreds of electronics assemblers and techs over the years, and inspected many hundreds of thousands (millions maybe?) of solder joints, both hand soldered and wave soldered.

FYI, the Weller I mentioned above is 30W and ONLY siuted to electronic use such as circuit boards and smaller automotive projects. It can be adapted to SMT depending on tip but there are other tools that are better for SMT. For things like battery cable to terminals and winch cables and stuff you will need a MUCH higher power. I actually use a propane torch for stuff like that. Basically like sweating copper pipes for plumbing.
Yup definitely one of the lessons from the videos I watched was tin your tip up right when it's new and hit it with solder EVERY TIME you take if off the work piece. I was definitely practicing that and will do so with any new tips.
 

DaveInDenver

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Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,127
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Grand Junction
The WTCPN is a real thowback! FYI, the element (TC208 is the part number) on a WTCPN was 42 watts, although sometimes it was listed at 48W or 50W. Those are a fine soldering station but they've been out of production for a while now so you might want to make sure the one you're buying actually still works. Although PT-type tips can still be found new and the element occasionally NOS since they continued to use them in the TCP12P portable iron (also now discontinued AFAIK) until a few years ago.
 

Cruisertrash

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Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
2,019
Location
Denver
For tip cleaning are you guys in the wet sponge or the brass wool camp?

I'm 100% a brass wool fan. Something about a wet sponge caused my tips to get eaten away by corrosion - yes, even when properly tinning the tip before turning the iron off. I went through probably 15 years or tips lasting a only few months. After switching to brass wool about 6 years ago I've gone through one tip, and I'm on my second now - and it's got plenty of life left.
 

DaveInDenver

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Yeah Jim, brass wool for pure performance. But anymore I use a wet sponge most of the time with Kester 44. It does a better job with resin flux I feel.

But from the time I started in aerospace and then at the contract manufacturer we always used brass wool. That's because almost everyone uses water soluble or No-Clean now and they try to eliminate any potential water-caused issues prior to wash. Brass wool is also probably less likely to introduce contamination into the process since it's better at scraping the debris off.

The old thought of thermal shock is probably just a wives tale and if anything you substitute a small thermal shock for a more abrasive material and so it's trading one thing for another in tip life. It always seemed to me brass didn't ruin the tinning as quickly.

It really IMO comes down to process compatibility and preference.
 

rushthezeppelin

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2022
Messages
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Put my Weathertech window deflectors on today. Also picked up the stock diff bracket bolts to delete my diff drop and get my factory skids back on as well as the parts for doing the diff breather extension mod for my rear diff. Also starting to suspect I have a leaky rear axle seal that I will have to tackle soon....
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damon

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Cruise Moab Committee
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Nov 28, 2018
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Arvada, CO
I brought home a sibling for the 80.

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rushthezeppelin

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Oct 14, 2022
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Also starting to suspect I have a leaky rear axle seal that I will have to tackle soon....
Drat so I just did some research and asked on T4R....I have a bad rear axle seal. Sooooooooooooooo.................anyone have a bearing press and various other tools to do this job handy that I can ply with much alcohol? Still building out my tools and yeah I didn't have a bearing press planned for the near future lol.
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