Trump tariffs

[Cruisertrash]

This is too funny not to comment on!

I hope everyone is ready for our new national holiday on April 2nd. Better hurry and get to Walmart so you can get your new liberation day flags and shirts.

Liberation Day Flags & Shirts*
*Made in China (You will even pay the tariff on 'Murica merch haha!)

At least we're getting a 6 trillion dollar tax break over the next 10 years.

I have a wild guess that's not going to wind up in my pocket!

Navarro, Trump’s senior counselor for trade and manufacturing, insists it’s not a tax increase but a tax cut — echoing the Trump administration’s repeated belief that tariffs will be paid not by American consumers but by businesses in other countries or the countries themselves.

Lol. As I stated above, and what I'm hearing from other friends that run small businesses - pass on the cost of tariffs to the consumer or close up shop. Learned this in Econ 101 my second semester in college.

The non-auto tariffs alone “are going to raise about $600 billion (a year), about $6 trillion over a 10-year period,” Navarro said. Cars, he said, would add another $100 billion annually.

Out of our pockets, by our spending ... if they can sell enough cars and crap at the increased rates. They really figured out another avenue to funnel money upward. Amazing.

 

[DanInDenver]

Good article on the WSJ this morning on how things are affecting the small business owner and famers in rural America.
Some don’t blame him they blame his administration. How they are going about affecting change and its impact on their ability to survive through the change.

 

[J1000]

Although not wholly exact, this really is mostly untrue. It’s just shy of propaganda, being used by Trump to sell his agenda.

Looks like most of the world has higher tariffs on us based on this graphic.

I also know that graphic is not completely accurate because Canada has all sorts of tariffs on US goods, like 200+% on dairy and poultry products.

Mexico has tariffs on non-originating U.S. goods, which could reach up to 35% for certain products like textiles or footwear.

Europe has had 10% tariffs on US cars for decades. What is a US car? Toyota and Nissan make more cars in the US than Ford, Chevy and Chrysler.

"Free trade" is a race to the bottom, unless you like the idea of competing against Mexican or Chinese labor I guess.

Personally, I understand that the way trade and manufacturing currently work in the world doesn't make sense. Raw materials are sent across the ocean to China to be made into products by near slave labor and then returned to our shores to sell. Its incredibly wasteful, massive container ships burning bunker fuel, requires the exploitation of other people and only serves to make a few people a bit wealthier.

Its not an easy problem to solve, but sometimes temporary discomfort in order to gain long term comfort is the only choice. Personally, I would love to be able to go to the parts store or buy a tool that's made in the USA and is not a piece of junk made by slave labor.

 

[gr8fulabe]

Looks like most of the world has higher tariffs on us based on this graphic.

I also know that graphic is not completely accurate because Canada has all sorts of tariffs on US goods, like 200+% on dairy and poultry products.

Mexico has tariffs on non-originating U.S. goods, which could reach up to 35% for certain products like textiles or footwear.

Europe has had 10% tariffs on US cars for decades. What is a US car? Toyota and Nissan make more cars in the US than Ford, Chevy and Chrysler.

"Free trade" is a race to the bottom, unless you like the idea of competing against Mexican or Chinese labor I guess.

Personally, I understand that the way trade and manufacturing currently work in the world doesn't make sense. Raw materials are sent across the ocean to China to be made into products by near slave labor and then returned to our shores to sell. Its incredibly wasteful, massive container ships burning bunker fuel, requires the exploitation of other people and only serves to make a few people a bit wealthier.

Its not an easy problem to solve, but sometimes temporary discomfort in order to gain long term comfort is the only choice. Personally, I would love to be able to go to the parts store or buy a tool that's made in the USA and is not a piece of junk made by slave labor.

I’ve just boarded a plane, so can’t go deep into this, but again, most of your claims are actually more propaganda than fact. I do this for a living, and know the reality. Take your Canada dairy & poultry claims. Canada imports USMCA dairy & poultry duty free. They have a quota system I place to limit the total amount of duty free imports (same as we do for for lots of Canadian products). All USMCA imports are duty free until the quota limit is hit. THEN, the 200% tariffs you mention would be triggered. BUT, that quota limit has never been reached, and never been triggered. However, the Trump/Maga echo chamber never mentions this fact. It’s a pretty strong limiting of reality to not tell the whole story.

 

[IoN6]

Sightings some sources would add some validity to your statements. Until then, you are just echoing back into said chamber.

 

[DanInDenver]

Work you could do yourself, but since you asked for some sources.
Links in the second article to a study on the effectiveness of the USMCA that Trump negotiated. The USMCA is a trade agreement the US has with Mexico and Canada.

Dairy trade group IDFA is against the tariffs as they will harm their USA farmers.

U.S. Dairy Urges Swift Resolution to Tariff Escalation with Canada, Mexico and China

WASHINGTON, March 4, 2025—The United States levied new tariffs on imports from Canada, Mexico and Ch...

www.idfa.org

U.S. dairy exports make big inroads into Canada | The Western Producer

Trade data shows that the United States is selling more dairy products to Canada.

www.producer.com

“Tariffs get steep pretty quickly, ranging from 241 per cent for liquid milk to 298 per cent for butter, effectively pricing those imported products out of the market,” says a Cornell summary of the research paper.

However, the tariffs are hypothetical because U.S. export volumes to Canada are below the TRQ.

“In practice, these tariffs are not actually paid by anyone,” Al Mussell, an agricultural economist from Ontario, told CNN recently.

But while the optics of a 298 per cent tariff can be easily exploited by Trump and others, including U.S. dairy exporters, Wolf said they’re also necessary for Canada’s dairy industry.

America’s dairy farms are larger and more efficient, so the cost of producing milk is lower, said Wolf, who grew up on a farm in Wisconsin.

“You (Canada) have to have the trade protections.… You can’t maintain an internal price that’s 1.5 to two times (higher )… what the U.S. farm milk price is, without preventing trade,” he said, adding that American dairy farms have huge herds compared to Canada.

“In the United States today … 70 per cent of the milk production comes from herds that have a 1,000 or more cows.”

Meanwhile, dairy farms with less than 100 cows are still commonplace in Canada.

“For Canadian dairy farms, the average is 96 milking cows,” says the Dairy Farmers of Canada website.

“Eastern Canada tends to have an average number that is lower (average of 75 to 95 cows per farm in Quebec and Ontario).”

Wolf isn’t pro or con supply management. From his vantage point in New York, Canadians should decide if they want supply management or not.

 

[krice118]

Every Car Made in America in 2025: See Final Assembly Locations

Worried about tariffs sending car prices higher? Find out which 2025 models are made in America with final assembly in the U.S.

caredge.com

Interesting article on cars with US final assembly which should see less impact than others.

 

[Cruisertrash]

Good article on the WSJ this morning on how things are affecting the small business owner and famers in rural America.
Some don’t blame him they blame his administration. How they are going about affecting change and its impact on their ability to survive through the change.

They have quite a few articles on the tariffs. Is it this one?

@krice118 Bring back actual small trucks and bring back NUMMI (where the Tacoma was made)! Kind of a joke, but also kind of serious.

 

[Cruisertrash]

Looks like most of the world has higher tariffs on us based on this graphic.

Based on the graphic, not really any of the countries that are regular trading partners. Canada, EU, UK, Australia, etc. But Russia, most African countries, and half of South America do look like they have higher tariffs/duties. I would have to see what we actually do in trade with those places, but it's got to be less than aforementioned ones. I would guess that's by a large margin. So the trade agreements are beneficial; where it counts, no? Again, based on the graphic. I'm sure Abe will be back to expound later.

"Free trade" is a race to the bottom, unless you like the idea of competing against Mexican or Chinese labor I guess.

Personally, I understand that the way trade and manufacturing currently work in the world doesn't make sense. Raw materials are sent across the ocean to China to be made into products by near slave labor and then returned to our shores to sell. Its incredibly wasteful, massive container ships burning bunker fuel, requires the exploitation of other people and only serves to make a few people a bit wealthier.

Wow. We agree on something. First time maybe haha. Anyway, here's the key bit: "...make a few people a bit wealthier." Who those people are is worth drilling down on, yeah? What do you think?

Its not an easy problem to solve, but sometimes temporary discomfort in order to gain long term comfort is the only choice. Personally, I would love to be able to go to the parts store or buy a tool that's made in the USA and is not a piece of junk made by slave labor.

If the price of goods increases but wages stay the same, could people by and large afford mostly American made products? Remember, American wages likely would not go up - the manufacturers would be facing a net cost increase because American labor is more expensive than offshore labor plus shipping combined (otherwise they wouldn't be doing the latter). Wages haven't really gone up versus inflation since the 70s too, which is worth bearing in mind. So the businesses see a higher input cost for their products, but Americans don't have any more spending power. In fact prices may rise due to the higher input costs. Scratching my head on how that would play out. And sure, "more money staying in the American economy" ... but staying in who's hands exactly? The same "who" we're looking for above? Would sales go down because purchasing power goes down? (I.e., wages stagnant versus inflation, but goods cost more).

 

[KC Masterpiece]

Without getting too political and keeping this as a higher level economics conversation on Toyotas and Tariffs.

I understand the case that is being made for these tariffs, but I am not sure how we get from point A (now) to point B (more domestic production, less competition against slave labor, higher wages) without lots of hardship for the average American.

It will be interesting to see how everything plays out, but I have a feeling these tariffs are being used as more of a show of strength, and negotiation tactic than a long term economic solution. Regardless of your opinions about the current administration, they will not be able to hold power in the midterms or beyond if the economy starts to go south. The grace period of blaming the prior admin for economic issues only extends so long.

I think I could get on board with some tariffs IF they were stable and used to replace federal sales and income tax. There is so much talk these days about the rich paying their "fair share", but the top 1% of income earners already pay around 40% of total income tax. I would love to see a system where households were exempt from federal income tax up to say..... $200,000. Get rid of sales tax that has a disproportionate impact on low income households. Income inequality is a reality in any merit based system, but the increasing wealth gap that continues to develop is not good for society.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. My plan for the immediate future? Hold more cash and be ready to make informed moves, big or small. Uncertainty means opportunity if you are playing in the markets, buying or selling a truck, or just shopping parts.

 

[KC Masterpiece]

They don't pay that.

"The results are stark. According to Forbes, those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%"

The Secret IRS Files: Trove of Never-Before-Seen Records Reveal How the Wealthiest Avoid Income Tax

ProPublica has obtained a vast cache of IRS information showing how billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk and Warren Buffett pay little in income tax compared to their massive wealth — sometimes, even nothing.

www.propublica.org

"Many Americans live paycheck to paycheck, amassing little wealth and paying the federal government a percentage of their income that rises if they earn more. In recent years, the median American household earned about $70,000 annually and paid 14% in federal taxes. The highest income tax rate, 37%, kicked in this year, for couples, on earnings above $628,300."

I agree with the paycheck to paycheck issue. That is what I would like to see policy proposals to solve. We need a system where the average American has the opportunity to build wealth.

The numbers you are sharing are not what I am referencing. There is a difference between income and wealth. You can't (well I guess you can, but shouldn't) tax wealth. There was talk about that with taxes on unrealized capital gains. That would destroy our entire economic system and remove all incentive for investment. For those of you that have equity in your home and rode out the covid price hikes, imagine having to pay taxes on the appreciation of your home each year.

For example using that chart Buffett had $125 million in income reported, and paid $23.7 in taxes. That is a 19% income tax rate. Is that less than I am paying.... definitely. I will absolutely agree that our tax system is way overcomplicated and benefits those that can afford to hire someone to find the loopholes. That chart is assuming unrealized capital gains are income, they are not.

I was referencing the percentage of total income tax revenue collected from the top 1% of income earners in the US. Rough numbers for that, last I checked, are at an annual income over $700,000. Those earners pay around 40% of all tax income tax revenue in the US.

 

[nuclearlemon]

For example using that chart Buffett had $125 million in income reported, and paid $23.7 in taxes. That is a 19% income tax rate. Is that less than I am paying.... definitely. I will absolutely agree that our tax system is way overcomplicated and benefits those that can afford to hire someone to find the loopholes. That chart is assuming unrealized capital gains are income, they are not.

is the $125 million income before or after write-offs like donations? he made somewhere in the neighborhood of $1billion in donations in his endeavor to give away all his money. i assume that would affect the amount he was taxed. hence the reason rich people are often so "charitable". better to charity than the government coffers

 

[KC Masterpiece]

is the $125 million income before or after write-offs like donations? he made somewhere in the neighborhood of $1billion in donations in his endeavor to give away all his money. i assume that would affect the amount he was taxed. hence the reason rich people are often so "charitable". better to charity than the government coffers

Good question. I would be really curious to see those numbers, but I don't want to derail the thread completely. Different topic for a different time.

 

[DanInDenver]

They have quite a few articles on the tariffs. Is it this one?

@krice118 Bring back actual small trucks and bring back NUMMI (where the Tacoma was made)! Kind of a joke, but also kind of serious.

Here’s the link https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy...19bc6?st=s5miKF&reflink=article_copyURL_share

 

[DanInDenver]

Its not an easy problem to solve, but sometimes temporary discomfort in order to gain long term comfort is the only choice. Personally, I would love to be able to go to the parts store or buy a tool that's made in the USA and is not a piece of junk made by slave labor.

Definitely not an easy problem to solve, but I think the solution needs long term work which would involve long term discomfort.

As a nation as we favor low priced goods delivered fast. We make judgment calls on quality or the usefulness of quality. For many we buy what's affordable.

We are a Toyota club, Japanese made vehicles, not American. We want what we want. If its a national security issue the patriotic duty would be to go buy Bronco's.

Personally, I understand that the way trade and manufacturing currently work in the world doesn't make sense. Raw materials are sent across the ocean to China to be made into products by near slave labor and then returned to our shores to sell. Its incredibly wasteful, massive container ships burning bunker fuel, requires the exploitation of other people and only serves to make a few people a bit wealthier.

You make a great point on how trade and manufacturing work now and the incredible waste.

Head to toe the clothes we own and wear are primarily made in south east Asia. Are we benefiting off the backs of slave labor or is our massive consumerism spreading wealth around the globe? I haven't heard any talk of bringing back textile Mills.

I don't think as a nation we are collectively willing to make the long term sacrifices needed to bring back manufacturing to the US. That said with the right inspirational leadership we can, could and have done incredible things. The current us/them divisiveness, what aboutism all has to stop.

 

[Cruisertrash]

is the $125 million income before or after write-offs like donations? he made somewhere in the neighborhood of $1billion in donations in his endeavor to give away all his money. i assume that would affect the amount he was taxed. hence the reason rich people are often so "charitable". better to charity than the government coffers

Like @KC Masterpiece said it’s a bit off topic, and yes he could be donating huge sums as a write off. Some of those could also come from trusts, companies, or charitable organizations Buffet has set up. Potential “income” or “wealth” directed at him personally gets funneled to those organizations before he ever sees it and thus isn’t income? Once you get into the games those people play I get dizzy real fast. The lines between personal “wealth” and the “wealth” stored in organizations you own all or the majority of seem to get blurry. At the end of the day it seems to all be personal wealth, otherwise a person wouldn’t invest the time into building companies with such significance. The wealth just isn’t all personal in paper … for tax purposes.

To get back to the tariff topic directly, the party line here has been “temporary discomfort in exchange for future payoff.” To me it seems like a people problem. Less people value American made goods, which are often more expensive, take more time to receive, but are usually of higher quality. Tools from Amazon versus tools you have to order from, let’s say, Snap-On is one example we probably all inherently understand.

On the flip side of this - and I’m admittedly playing a bit of devil’s advocate here - that hasn’t been the party line as it relates to 2A stuff. The line there is that we can’t regulate people out of irresponsible firearm use - it’s a people problem that needs solved on the people level. Kind of curious that the approach is seemingly opposite on those two things.

I have other ideas for why people prefer buying lower quality goods, but that gets off topic.

 

[Yarn Cruiser]

Head to toe the clothes we own and wear are primarily made in south east Asia. Are we benefiting off the backs of slave labor or is our massive consumerism spreading wealth around the globe? I haven't heard any talk of bringing back textile Mills.

Slightly on and off topic but for anyone who likes podcasts I would recommend Fiber Nation. A textile history podcast. They cover many topics often the economics of different textiles and the history of textiles from around the world. Including modern ones. This episode talks about bringing fiber mills back to the states. Specifically from the views of a Wyoming mill owner and how she works with Wyoming shepherds to keep the wool stateside. They talk about the economics of wool, how it’s graded, sold and how we lost our mills state side. The efforts she went through to get going and how in turn it has put more money in the pockets of our shepherds. Worth a listen. Bonus, you can visit this mill. On the yarn side of things people are working on bringing mills back.


View: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4Sip2szaAvWJtcnRq7v3aP?si=ceUtyqCKQbO7U2yDKxJP9Q


All the episodes are worth a listen IMO however these do offer additional context. The Triangle Shirtwaist factory Fire part 1 & 2 and Hemp: The Fall and Rise of a Forbidden Fiber.

 

[KC Masterpiece]

@Yarn Cruiser Maybe the world would be a better place if we had less divisive politics and more yarn related content. I love this post.

 

[Cruisertrash]

You make a great point on how trade and manufacturing work now and the incredible waste.

This is true and I agree completely. Businesses don’t optimize for the least amount of energy/resource waste though - they optimize for profit and/or shareholder return. Sometimes those things align but often they don’t, however incongruous it seems. So from a business perspective it’s actually less wasteful - of money - to “waste” resources shipping raw materials overseas and shipping finished products back, for one example. To be up front about my personal view of that: I don’t like it one bit.

To extend that idea and come back to tying in the idea of tariffs again, I would have a little better feeling about all this if a return to American manufacturing meant higher wages. I really don’t see that coming to fruition though. Businesses have to look at the cost of continued offshore production - all of the shipping we’re discussing, the cost of offshore labor, as well as paying the tariffs passed on to them by non-US entities that they purchase goods from - and weigh it against decreased shipping costs plus higher domestic wages, and no tariffs. If the domestic shipping & wages are higher they’ll continue to source from offshore, eat the tariffs, and pass them on. If the domestic shipping & wages are lower and they utilize that, their impetus is to see that as a cost reduction and they’ll preserve that in the interest of their profit margin. Why would they lower the price if people will still buy it at the same price it used to be? Industry isn’t going to suddenly decrease prices or increase wages out of the kindness of their heart.

We saw some of that during COVID - lots of prices got raised, and when upward price pressure was alleviated prices never went back down. We got trained to stomach the higher prices because we had to. When the higher costs of manufacturing (or limited supplies that drove prices up, depending on the case) fell, why would companies lower prices if consumers had gotten used to them and were still buying stuff? Take the increased profit and run. That wasn’t exactly the case for every product on a store shelf, but it happened with quite a few. So I think that same concept would be in play for any manufacturing that’s moved to US soil due to tariffs.

 

[nuclearlemon]

To extend that idea and come back to tying in the idea of tariffs again, I would have a little better feeling about all this if a return to American manufacturing meant higher wages.

and quality products that we used to be known for.

too much stuff these days is throw away. i wish we'd go back to quality parts that could be rebuilt.