-
REGISTER FOR RISING SUN'S 2ND BEST EVENT: THE COLOYOTA EXPO. IT'S ONLY $5, DUDE.
→ No extra fee to bring yer extra stuff and sell it at the swap meet.
→ It's not Cruise Moab, but it's way cheaper and you can sleep in your own bed.
→ Businesses: Still time to register your company to be an exhibitor at the event, too!
Click here to register today..
Towing Capacity and Other Issues to Consider
- Thread starter Old Man Greybeard
- Start date
this is a great little video to watch to learn about weight distribution.
powderpig
Hard Core 4+
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2005
- Messages
- 1,527
Dave is that picture of a 4 runner with trailer a friends. Does not look like it has a weight distribution hitch. Back tires are stuffed pretty well into the wheel well. Runner Front end looks a bit high, so not as much weight on the front end for Steering, Sort of what not too do Picture?
Too me that looks like the trailer is too big, JMHO. At least for the longevity of the Runner. Been there in my younger days, it would not be something I would do any more.
Too me that looks like the trailer is too big, JMHO. At least for the longevity of the Runner. Been there in my younger days, it would not be something I would do any more.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I don't know the owner or the full story. Found it drilling through the Internet for 4Runners towing large campers for perspective.
I'd agree that it certainly looks like no weight distributing hitch or air bags.
That's a 5th gen 4Runner of course and Erik has a 4th gen. Obviously the 5th gen only has a V6 however the risk isn't getting the weight moving it's sway and braking.
The camper is pretty much the same one. The photo shows a Salem 24RLXL rather than the Avenger 24RLS Erik is buying.
The one in the photo:
https://www.salemrvsales.com/product-forest-river-rv/salem-cruise-lite-travel-trailer/24rlxl
Length: 28' feet, 11 inches long
Dry: 5,063 lbs
Tongue: 550 lbs
Erik's:
https://primetimerv.com/travel-trailers/avenger/24RLS/4291
Length: 29 feet, 4 inches
Dry: 5,366 lbs
Tongue: 575 lbs
Last edited:
ScaldedDog
Hard Core 4+
Wow. There's no WD hitch that's going to fix that. The tail is just too big for the dog.
Mark
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I said it earlier, I'd want a F250 or maybe even lowest spec F350 personally just so it wouldn't be stressed in wind or long grades. But at least a 1/2 ton full size.
I think most people who tow large trailers with mid to full size vehicles have never towed with a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel. Once you do that I can’t see how you’d ever think that 4Runner and hard side pictured above is OK, WD or not.
I tow often with my 80, pop-up and M101a. Both much lighter and equal in height with my truck (no drop hitch). My 80 blocks all the wind. They are fine. I’ve trailered a 60, that sucked. Flat towed my 40 down to Durango, that sucked. I’ve hauled countless cars on a flatbed behind 3/4 ton over Vail pass. That was no drama.
I find it laughable the new Rivian is claiming a 11,000lb tow rating. Power is only part of the equation.
I tow often with my 80, pop-up and M101a. Both much lighter and equal in height with my truck (no drop hitch). My 80 blocks all the wind. They are fine. I’ve trailered a 60, that sucked. Flat towed my 40 down to Durango, that sucked. I’ve hauled countless cars on a flatbed behind 3/4 ton over Vail pass. That was no drama.
I find it laughable the new Rivian is claiming a 11,000lb tow rating. Power is only part of the equation.
The one thing the rivian does have going for it is weight--it weights ~1500lbs more than a early 2000's 6bt dodge 3/4 ton or today's f150 powerboost which is rated at ~12k lbs tow.
Not that I'd ever try and tow anything near 11k with a rivian sized vehicle as, like you say, many components beyond weight and power like wheel base, suspension, tires, brakes, tech, etc.
rover67
Rising Sun Member
You can band aid a lot of overweighted trailer/truck combos with brake controllers and WD hitches only to find out that the trailer brakes overheat with a few panic stops you never planned for and you are left with terribly inadequate truck brakes that also eventually overheat trying to chase the trailer brakes cooler.
Then the mis matched combo leaves the trailer pushing the rear of the truck around corners as you are trying to calm it all down.
Maybe you get to the bottom of the hill before the shit hits the fan maybe you don’t?
And who here has literally bent the WD hitch bars pulling the trailer up and pushing truck nose down? I know I have.
Sure the small truck big trailer combo works but you have to be very careful and hope you don’t have an emergency.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
You know, when you think about it people upgrade 4Runners and Tacomas to Tundra brakes. There's a reason Tundras come with Tundra brakes from the factory.
3rdGen4R
Hard Core 4+
Ugh… sorry but staying within the vehicles limitations is all I find important. I’ve been able to tow and had no issues with this. My wife and I have gone over the 2 biggest passes probably over 60 times.
Also with red arch’s towing combination it’ll do a great job at setting how the breaks on the trailer work with the truck.
There are different type of trailers, and a lot that goes into it. Hitch weight matters as well which no one has really talked about. The actual gvwr of the trailer also needs to be looked at. The point is it’s just not a metter of having a big truck.
AlpineAccess
Hard Core 4+
rover67
Rising Sun Member
Sure but it’s also not simply a case of throwing on a good brake controller and hitch and you’re good to go. It’s matching tow rig to trailer. And undersized or perfectly matched tow rigs can be ok but there is no arguing bigger tow rigs add a safety factor that can make a difference especially when things you don’t plan for happen.
3rdGen4R
Hard Core 4+
Sure! But that doesn’t mean it’s u unsafe if you don’t do that.
rover67
Rising Sun Member
Guess it all depends on the safety factor you are comfortable with. I've seen and been a part of many situations so my tolerance for adequate is low. I prefer more than adequate.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Philip, you're comparing apples to squirrels. Your 4Runner is completely sufficient to tow your pop up. You're at probably 50% of its rated capacity while the O.P. is considering going to 100% of the capacity leaving no elbow room for margin.
The towing values in the owner's manual are absolute maximums, not continuous duty rating. But no manufacturer can tell you one exact safe working load limit because it's different for all situations, both for safety and longevity.
Pulling a trailer across Kansas isn't going to stress things the same as high passes. So 6k could be perfectly fine there every weekend for a 4Runner while 4k might be all it is here unless you want to use the runaway ramps. Toyota is just saying never go beyond this value, not that you can always go up to it.
It's like your RPM redline. That's the absolute max but you don't drive 500 miles continously at redline, do you? You have that margin available to merge or pass.
The towing values in the owner's manual are absolute maximums, not continuous duty rating. But no manufacturer can tell you one exact safe working load limit because it's different for all situations, both for safety and longevity.
Pulling a trailer across Kansas isn't going to stress things the same as high passes. So 6k could be perfectly fine there every weekend for a 4Runner while 4k might be all it is here unless you want to use the runaway ramps. Toyota is just saying never go beyond this value, not that you can always go up to it.
It's like your RPM redline. That's the absolute max but you don't drive 500 miles continously at redline, do you? You have that margin available to merge or pass.
Last edited:
3rdGen4R
Hard Core 4+
No Dave, I’m saying that you can do what you claim you can’t. In fact in aviation you see this all the time. We have a envelope and if you are in the envelope you are fine, if you are outside the envelope you’ll have issues. Can you find for me where Toyota says these rating are just suggestions? I feel like I’m having the IFS vs SA argument. Beleive what you want. My dad goes a 5000 pound trailer and it works just fine, would a Tundra be better, yes, does he need a tundra to do it safely? No.
Last edited:
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I'm not saying the specs are suggestions. I'm calling them the same thing as Toyota - maximums. So sure I view the actual values you use as contextual and won't argue with you calling it a belief.
So be it, I believe your trailer weight should be lower than the maximum driving in the mountains.
Your aviation payload envelope assumes performance parameters, right? Take-off length, climb rate, ceiling, landing requirements, that sort of thing?
Wouldn't aircraft also have instruments you can rely on to determine your effective payload in various conditions? All we get with our trucks is speed, RPM, coolant temp. Having various fluid and brake temp gauges or overheating indicators would make it less guesswork.
In that way, no, Toyota doesn't give anything else definitive other than generalities such as be careful, give extra space, blah, blah.
The only specific one I know is that Toyota "cautions" the lower of 45 MPH or the posted towing speed limit (thus an implied absolute max of 45 MPH) when towing in my owner's manual, which I'd think assumes you followed the gross combined/trailer/vehicle/axle ratings otherwise from the book.
Which, tangentially, is part of the reason why my belief is so formed.
My truck's GCWR is 11,100 lbs and GTWR is 6,500 lbs. However that is coupled with GAWR and GVWR. When you do the calculation to arrive at 11,100 lbs with a trailer maximum of 6,500 lbs requires that the truck weighs a maximum of 4,600 lbs.
Since my curb weight is 3,965 lbs and as delivered with the towing package it actually weighs about 4,065 lbs curb (the hitch, larger battery, etc). With me as driver (185 lbs) and a full tank (curb is dry per Toyota, 19 gallons is about 150 lbs) my truck actually weighs 4,400 lbs.
But I also have bumpers, camper shell, recovery junk, winch. So I actually weigh closer to the GVWR of 5,350 lbs than target-for-max-towing 4,600 lbs most of the time. So it's really more like 11,100 - 5,350 = 5,750 max for my built up truck. That's got to be why with around 5,000 lbs I start to get a lot of brake fade. How I've come to my belief is no less anecdotal than using "I've done it a bunch and haven't crashed yet."
Last edited:
ScaldedDog
Hard Core 4+
Wow! 45mph? I had no idea. Just for grins, I downloaded the 2022 4Runner manual, and it looks like the same language now says 65mph. However, the first words of the "Trailer towing" section are "Your vehicle is designed primarily as a passenger-and-load-carrying vehicle." The next 17 pages are devoted to keeping owners from getting themselves killed.
Mark
Mark
the capacity of my fuel tank prevents me from doing that.