PSA Advisory about "recovery rings" especially this one

[DaveInDenver]

A few mistakes were made in that Bronco recovery. It's really an interesting study, not just for the recovery but medical assessment oversights by even the triage doctor at the hospital. See how many things he talks about that Bill Burke and others touch on.

Recovery gear deep dive: shackles, straps and kinetic ropes, what to buy!

Do you guys seriously trust these factory loops which aren’t stamped with a rating and are NOT completely welded on both sides? I'm probably older than most on this forum. People of my generation mostly consider these tie down points, as in strap it on the trailer ; not recovery points.

www.bronco6g.com

Soft shackles and kinetic ropes

Anyone ever had a soft shackle get cut and turn a kinetic rope into a missile? Had a situation go down today and wondering if this is a common thing.

irate4x4.com

And on YouTube.


View: https://youtu.be/NrIR_4IPIbk

 

[HoneyBadger]

Why does it seem that when this happens, it always goes directly at the driver side of the windshield? Is it just me, or does it seem to be like that?

 

[On the RX]

Why does it seem that when this happens, it always goes directly at the driver side of the windshield? Is it just me, or does it seem to be like that?

They are sentient and looking for a soft landing?

 

[jps8460]

A few mistakes were made in that Bronco recovery. It's really an interesting study, not just for the recovery but medical assessment oversights by even the triage doctor at the hospital. See how many things he talks about that Bill Burke and others touch on.

Recovery gear deep dive: shackles, straps and kinetic ropes, what to buy!

Do you guys seriously trust these factory loops which aren’t stamped with a rating and are NOT completely welded on both sides? I'm probably older than most on this forum. People of my generation mostly consider these tie down points, as in strap it on the trailer ; not recovery points.

www.bronco6g.com

Soft shackles and kinetic ropes

Anyone ever had a soft shackle get cut and turn a kinetic rope into a missile? Had a situation go down today and wondering if this is a common thing.

irate4x4.com

And on YouTube.


View: https://youtu.be/NrIR_4IPIbk

I commend his after action. I can only imagine how terrifying it was for him. Hopefully he’ll seek out some further training. Kurt W. And I were just discussing the forces involved in Kinetic/momentum extractions and how it doesn’t take much to achieve destructive levels of force…. This type of stuff is likely the most dangerous stuff we’ll encounter as recreational Four-Wheelers.

 

[Inukshuk]

Good stuff in this discussion!

The other night when I could not sleep I watched the entire video (thank goodness for 2x speed). My takeaway is follow procedures. Stuck assessment, plan, communicate. Slow it down. Same on medical. Do the assessment. Had they followed protocol and exposed the wound, they may have seen his external bleeding was from the chin cut and based decisions and actions on accurate information. But that would be a boring you tube.

 

[DaveInDenver]

@Inukshuk, I found medical was as much the story as mistakes they made in the rigging. Not to minimize the broken hardware but with a clear eyed first aid assessment the cost and risk of a helicopter ride may have been unnecessary.

Now speaking of recovery mistakes. They were uber lucky the bumper face contained the failed tie point. In fairness to Ford and whoever made the bumper, that full throttle yank had to be in excess of 3x working load, even a properly done frame-tied point has a limit.

A way under appreciated aspect is the rating of the point you're tying to on your truck. The OEM aren't any more helpful than aftermarket in giving you guidance there, either. Tow ratings are OK but Toyota is terrible, no better than Ford or Jeep or Rover. WTF *is* that point rated for?


View: https://youtu.be/DXlJrDyAYHk

How sure are you of yours or the one on someone else's truck? Hanging a 7 ton shackle on this Amazon beer can POS wouldn't have made it any safer.

 

[dan1554]

Anymore, I don't get pulled or use the winch without the hood open if I can help it.

 

[fyffer]

So, I removed Synthetic line recently from the spool. The back end of it had a lot of friction burns/ melted. Assuming there had been some possible slack to the line as a cause. Looking at some Tube stuff how to put it on, first few turns with body weight tightness (assume as the cause), then secured by a stationary object and use the weight of the Rig and slight pressure to the brakes to reel it in (kind of hard by yourself).

About the same event that occurs to the line and rings. But because of the slack !
So how should I prevent this from happening ?

 

[Corbet]

Each winch will be a little different with respect to the amount of head it generates. When I replaced my line last year after over 10+ years of use there was very little indication of heat damage. I’m running a Warn M12000. Generally powering out line on a planetary gear winch is what generates the heat as you are working against the brake. Again different winches work differently. Personally I avoid powering out for this reason when ever possible. I’ve worked mine a few times powering in to full stall. I do not run any special sleeves to protect my line which was and is standard Amsteel 3/8”.

 

[Inukshuk]

So, I removed Synthetic line recently from the spool. The back end of it had a lot of friction burns/ melted. Assuming there had been some possible slack to the line as a cause. Looking at some Tube stuff how to put it on, first few turns with body weight tightness (assume as the cause), then secured by a stationary object and use the weight of the Rig and slight pressure to the brakes to reel it in (kind of hard by yourself).

About the same event that occurs to the line and rings. But because of the slack !
So how should I prevent this from happening ?

Can you post pictures?

If I understand correctly, you are thinking that stowing the first few wraps under just body weight and the layers above with slight rig resistance, caused rope to get hot causing damage.

Both wire and synthetic rope can "dive" between lawyers if the bottom layers are loose. Diving creates potential for many problems.

Wire rope must be stowed with a fair amount of tension. Usually done by "secure to a stationary object and winch in with slight pressure". By the way, you can simulate that with a slight grade or slight engagement of the parking brake.

I4WDTA current synthetic rope stowing best practice goes hand in hand with current synthetic rope stowing best practice. The method is to remove all rope from the drum down to 7-11 wraps every time you use it. This has many advantages. The disadvantage is the effort to unspool (pulled by hand, never powered out) and the need to be able to shorten the winch line. This is part of why I only have 70' on my drum.
Full un-spool each use makes it possible to stow the line with some body weight. Not a lot. Just enough to neatly stow.

(Insert here that Corbet disagrees. He has his particular reason for having lots of rope on his drum. Ultimately if a method works for you and is safe and effective, do it. But here we are discussing a situation and approach to it.)

If you prefer to stow the synthetic line under slight pressure (nothing particularly wrong with doing so), consider securing it to the drum with a constrictor knot and start your slight pressure first few and all turns. Find a level lawn or dirt, apply slight parking brake resistance, stand outside and winch! Adjust steering as need to neatly wrap. It can take practice.

When winching, anticipate slack conditions and apply slight brake pressure to avoid it.

Practice!

 

[rover67]

Mike I'm curious for photos also, I feel like a lot of times the lower wraps can be so smushed that the look melted but arent.

 

[DaveInDenver]

As mentioned, make sure when you inspect your rope that you're correctly identifying issues.

Amsteel Blue and similar UHMW 12-strand Dyneema will compress and look melted when it's not. If you can work a flat spot out it's likely not melted. Heat damage is permanent, can't be corrected.



For completeness this would be applicable to dynamic ropes (nylon double braid).

 

[fyffer]

Can you post pictures?

If I understand correctly, you are thinking that stowing the first few wraps under just body weight and the layers above with slight rig resistance, caused rope to get hot causing damage.

Both wire and synthetic rope can "dive" between lawyers if the bottom layers are loose. Diving creates potential for many problems.

Wire rope must be stowed with a fair amount of tension. Usually done by "secure to a stationary object and winch in with slight pressure". By the way, you can simulate that with a slight grade or slight engagement of the parking brake.

I4WDTA current synthetic rope stowing best practice goes hand in hand with current synthetic rope stowing best practice. The method is to remove all rope from the drum down to 7-11 wraps every time you use it. This has many advantages. The disadvantage is the effort to unspool (pulled by hand, never powered out) and the need to be able to shorten the winch line. This is part of why I only have 70' on my drum.
Full un-spool each use makes it possible to stow the line with some body weight. Not a lot. Just enough to neatly stow.

(Insert here that Corbet disagrees. He has his particular reason for having lots of rope on his drum. Ultimately if a method works for you and is safe and effective, do it. But here we are discussing a situation and approach to it.)

If you prefer to stow the synthetic line under slight pressure (nothing particularly wrong with doing so), consider securing it to the drum with a constrictor knot and start your slight pressure first few and all turns. Find a level lawn or dirt, apply slight parking brake resistance, stand outside and winch! Adjust steering as need to neatly wrap. It can take practice.

When winching, anticipate slack conditions and apply slight brake pressure to avoid it.

Practice!

So, I threw the line away but had a little line left on the spool. Not really a bad part of it, but has some cracking noise when bending or trying to compress it. Getting a new winch with synthetic line on it, so I’ll pull it and respool as you suggested.

 

[Inukshuk]

So, I threw the line away but had a little line left on the spool. Not really a bad part of it, but has some cracking noise when bending or trying to compress it. Getting a new winch with synthetic line on it, so I’ll pull it and respool as you suggested.

Visually that one is fine. Handling is the only way to know if those flat and compressed spots are good or bad.

Better safe than sorry? Of course, always, except when false sense of danger turns out as bad as false sense of security. The goal is understanding so as to properly use equipment. It would suck to not deploy a winch fearing bad line that is actually serviceable.

Quality HDPE line is incredibly tough. And visually indistinguishable from garbage. I have some true 3/8 Amsteel Blue Dyneema that is hard to cut with Kevlar shears. I have some genuine authentic 3/8 Amazonite that is easy to cut with Kevlar shears. Same size and *higher* (cough cough) rated on Amazon, but plainly weaker.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The important thing is trust of the source and chain to know the performance and specifications that are provided are true or not and what you're getting is really what is being sold or if it's counterfeit.

That's the main problem with Amazon IMO, the fake everything being injected into the market place gives rise to confusion. I figure with Amazon you have to assume it's fake until proven otherwise. And even if you do find legitimate products you have to verify the supplier.

In the end it's just plastic fibers spun into a rope. Not rocket surgery that only DSM (Dyneema fiber) or Honeywell (Spectra fiber) and New England (Dynaglide, Endura), Cortland (Plasma), Sampson (Amsteel), Yale (Maxibraid, Ultrex) or Marlow (D12) can do.

So if you're shopping from numbers and not trusted brands/retailers the documentation of the supply chain is all you can go by to know the coil in your hand will do what the datasheet says it will.

Introduction to Core Fibres in Modern Ropes

There are many core materials used in modern rope making. Get a basic introduction to the benefits and weaknesses of the two main ones: Polyester and Dyneema®

info.upffront.com

But...

Dyneema vs Chineema - How strong is "synthetic rope" (HMPE) on Ebay & Amazon?

We tested 7 qualities of Dyneema. Dyneema is Ultra-High-Molecular-Weight-Poly-Ethylene or strong plastic for short, and it's 15x stronger than steel BASED ON WEIGHT but can float on water. It's slippery, very static and has a low melting point. Tying knots in it can reduce its strength over...

www.hownot2.com

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2vBj5rWdXU

 

[fyffer]

So the new Winch will come with Spydura UMHWPE line, I believe that will be good based on my little research. Bending that old line and hearing it cracking, certainly did not instill any confidence and the pic's does not show any of the worst part of it.
But thank you all for very valuable info.