Kokopelli questions

[DaveInDenver]

Yes bypassing RGH for reasons others have stated. Thanks for calling out Dome Plateau to Dewey Bridge. Way better than 128. I was just trying to get from A to B. Also Onion Creek (thanks @DaveInDenver) look better than my 128/96 route from Dewey.

What's the path from Fish Ford camp to the trail head of Dome Plateau? I had ploted the bit in blue but I'm not sure that will work as OnX just says "unknown motorized access" plus it looks like part of that path is on the river bank. The only for sure route I see is Cisco Pumpkin House Rd to 175 to 128.

At any rate, I'm just having fun here getting my head wrapped around this trip. Fully understand (and appreciate) Trail Leaders are called Trail Leaders for a reason and I'm looking forward to following the bumper in front of me. CM (really attending any national TLCA event) has been on my list for long time and its finally time.

Indeed, don't get wrapped around the axle. The route is well established and the CM guides won't steer you wrong.

To clear up your question, what your mapping software is showing is the Kokopelli but it's the mountain bike route. Here's roughly the same area you have on your map. I left on the public lands overlay, which should help you orient yourself. Blue is SITLA (state land trust) and beige is BLM. The red track is one possibility for 4WD (the reason becomes evident whilst you're on the run, let the mystery be) and blue is typically what most MTB will do.



MTBs do follow the river to McGraw Bottom but there's a section of wetland tamarack and reeds not open to motorized users so OHVs have to go around. I'll add a photo along there since that shouldn't ruin it for CM attendees. Maybe whet your appetite for bringing boots or a MTB.

 

[subzali]

Yes bypassing RGH for reasons others have stated. Thanks for calling out Dome Plateau to Dewey Bridge. Way better than 128. I was just trying to get from A to B. Also Onion Creek (thanks @DaveInDenver) look better than my 128/96 route from Dewey.

What's the path from Fish Ford camp to the trail head of Dome Plateau? I had ploted the bit in blue but I'm not sure that will work as OnX just says "unknown motorized access" plus it looks like part of that path is on the river bank. The only for sure route I see is Cisco Pumpkin House Rd to 175 to 128.

At any rate, I'm just having fun here getting my head wrapped around this trip. Fully understand (and appreciate) Trail Leaders are called Trail Leaders for a reason and I'm looking forward to following the bumper in front of me. CM (really attending any national TLCA event) has been on my list for long time and its finally time.

You should be able to see the route on Dave's map up a couple of posts.

 

[LC200TX]

Found this Mud thread which provides lots of good info and confirmed my location questions above. It sparked another question though. The pics of the rigs all had roof top tents. If I convince my buddy to go, we will have a ground tent. As I am a total newbie with Moab desert camping, I'm wondering about tent spikes in rock. One of the pics showed the rigs camping on what looked like all slick rock. Use small rocks for anchors? Hammer drill and tapcons? (just kidding on the last one).

That’s a really cool spot. My rig is the second one from the right. There is lots of places at this camp site for ground tents

 

[KCJAZ]

From the Mud thread on Kokopelli, it looks like in the past, the run up to Top of the World was on the afternoon of the second day (out and back). The Thread says its likely to get back to camp after dark. While my 200 is significantly built, one mod I haven't got to is aux lighting. Would the return trip from ToW be "reasonable" in a trial group? I really don't want to pass on ToW and I don't think I can get ditch lighting or rock lights installed before the event.

 

[DaveInDenver]

From the Mud thread on Kokopelli, it looks like in the past, the run up to Top of the World was on the afternoon of the second day (out and back). The Thread says its likely to get back to camp after dark. While my 200 is significantly built, one mod I haven't got to is aux lighting. Would the return trip from ToW be "reasonable" in a trial group? I really don't want to pass on ToW and I don't think I can get ditch lighting or rock lights installed before the event.

Are you asking about Top of the World as part of the Koko run or as it's own CM run?

As a regular run from Moab it's a long day and you might get back after dark but you'd very likely be off the trail during day light. Well, unless someone has a mechanical, but that's always a risk. It's a long haul from town and back on the highway, which is mainly why it's such a long day. For the highway aux lighting is not much use. UT128 is a tight, twisty two-lane so you can't use long distance driving beams and half your time is spent switching off high beams for oncoming traffic. Fog or low aux are nice to watch for wildlife. Ditch lights are illegal on Utah highways. Lights have to be forward facing.

You don't really need to plan on a ton of aux lights on the trail IMO. The trail is not so technical for the whole length that you'd really need them the whole time anyway. There's a few sections that they might be nice but in a group you probably could get by without at all.

 

[KCJAZ]

Are you asking about Top of the World as part of the Koko run or as it's own CM run?

As a regular run from Moab it's a long day and you might get back after dark but you'd very likely be off the trail during day light. Well, unless someone has a mechanical, but that's always a risk. It's a long haul from town and back on the highway, which is mainly why it's such a long day. For the highway aux lighting is not much use. UT128 is a tight, twisty two-lane so you can't use long distance driving beams and half your time is spent switching off high beams for oncoming traffic. Fog or low aux are nice to watch for wildlife. Ditch lights are illegal on Utah highways. Lights have to be forward facing.

You don't really need to plan on a ton of aux lights on the trail IMO. The trail is not so technical for the whole length that you'd really need them the whole time anyway. There's a few sections that they might be nice but in a group you probably could get by without at all.

I just mean for the side trip to ToW while doing Kokopelli. I would not use any aux light on pavement. I just ask because I've been on narrow shelf roads/trails with tricky bits during daylight that I imagine I would not like at night.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I just mean for the side trip to ToW while doing Kokopelli. I would not use any aux light on pavement. I just ask because I've been on narrow shelf roads/trails with tricky bits during daylight that I imagine I would not like at night.

Gotcha. That will depend on your itinerary of the leader. You'll probably have the Top of the World option on day two, which is the same day you'd do Dome Plateau. That could be a long day in the saddle, quite a bit of wheeling to pack in one day. But you'd camp close to the trail, so no highway to worry about. I wouldn't think ditch lights are make-or-break on Top of the World but your trail leader will have input. I personally wouldn't sweat it, the trail isn't an exposed shelf road where there's a lot of consequence. Having good headlights and low pointing fogs should be fine, especially in a group.

 

[Inukshuk]

From the Mud thread on Kokopelli, it looks like in the past, the run up to Top of the World was on the afternoon of the second day (out and back). The Thread says its likely to get back to camp after dark. While my 200 is significantly built, one mod I haven't got to is aux lighting. Would the return trip from ToW be "reasonable" in a trial group? I really don't want to pass on ToW and I don't think I can get ditch lighting or rock lights installed before the event.

As the 5 time, or so, Cruise Moab Kokopelli Leader I will first say - we'll let this year's leader Allen have the final word. I only once brought the group to camp just as it got dark. There was snow and rain that day. Lots of it.

 

[Trapper50cal]

I did either the first or second Koko Overnighter. ToW is really straight forward. A couple larger steps and IIRC one sorta challenging obstacle near the beginning. We also did RGH that year and that was challenging. Sliders and IPOR Skid earned their keep on that one...

Some Canadian guys put together a video that year

I think the tough part of the trail to ToW is at 3:57 unless I'm getting that spot confused with somewhere else.


View: https://youtu.be/sPBhax2ZWMg

 

[allen.wrench]

Great question. And I'm happy to talk more about the topic in person too.

The short answer about Top of the World (TOTW) this year is: I do not intend we run it.

A longer answer is:
If we did run TOTW on Kokopelli, your lighting setup would likely be fine. But I don't intend running TOTW for the same reasons I want to avoid Rose Garden Hill (RGH) on Kokopelli. TOTW and RGH are great trails and absolutely worth running. They can be run separately from Kokopelli. If they are included in Kokopelli they make each respective day become a long drag as a best case scenario. If something breaks, bad weather hits, or something else happens then those days become exponentially worse.

My intent when I lead Kokopelli is to have a chill rexaling long drive through some amazing country side. Show folks what is possible in just a tiny portion of the US we have to share, get into our camps with plenty of daylight to setup, take care of any issues their rigs might have, maybe enjoy a hike or short run, cook a nice dinner meal, and then have a good chance for folks to socialize before a good sleep ready for the next day. These are some of the reasons I believe Kokopelli is a magical trail.

Pushing to include RGH and TOTW in Kokopelli would be fitting round pegs in a square hole. It's far better to fit round pegs in round holes, and square pegs in square holes. I believe that's a reasonable American expression for the situation. English is my second language, let me know if there might be a better way to explain it.

And like I said. Let me know if you want to know more. I'm happy to talk about it.

Allen

 

[mcgaskins]

I did either the first or second Koko Overnighter. ToW is really straight forward. A couple larger steps and IIRC one sorta challenging obstacle near the beginning. We also did RGH that year and that was challenging. Sliders and IPOR Skid earned their keep on that one...

Some Canadian guys put together a video that year

I think the tough part of the trail to ToW is at 3:57 unless I'm getting that spot confused with somewhere else.


View: https://youtu.be/sPBhax2ZWMg

I noticed that video is from 2011, so something to keep in mind is TOTW has become much harder in the last few years, especially for a heavy 200 on small-ish tires. The last time I did it ~4 years ago in my 200 on 34s I decided that was the last time because I got tired of how hard it would slam down on the ledges coming back. I have only done the full loop, not the out and back that I believe has become the more popular route. Looks Allen is skipping it altogether however which I think is the right decision for a Cruise Moab variety of Kokopelli.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I noticed that video is from 2011, so something to keep in mind is TOTW has become much harder in the last few years, especially for a heavy 200 on small-ish tires. The last time I did it ~4 years ago in my 200 on 34s I decided that was the last time because I got tired of how hard it would slam down on the ledges coming back.

Dunno if it's really harder than years ago but it's definitely gotten more chewed up by the SxS traffic. The ledges get dug out fer sure and they're making alternative lines, which is really not good.

 

[90WT]

I ran TOTW twice last year, a pre-run and then a few days later I lead the out-and-back version for CM. The open dif guys needed some help over the main obstacle. And yes, lots of steps to bang the back end (even if you drive a 40!). I have a private video on Youtube I can share if you wanna get a feel for it.

@allen.wrench is a great trail leader. Whatever he has planned will be a good time. I hope I can join in on this one.

 

[KCJAZ]

I ran TOTW twice last year, a pre-run and then a few days later I lead the out-and-back version for CM. The open dif guys needed some help over the main obstacle. And yes, lots of steps to bang the back end (even if you drive a 40!). I have a private video on Youtube I can share if you wanna get a feel for it.

@allen.wrench is a great trail leader. Whatever he has planned will be a good time. I hope I can join in on this one.

I'd like to see the video if you can DM a link or something to me. I've got a Dissent rear bumper and am fully armored underneath, lifted of 34's and triple locked so while it sounds like I'll be dragging my butt down the ledges, it would not be a new experience for me.

I totally get the objective of the Kokopelli run and why ToW and RGH are off the itinerary. A more chill and relaxing vibe on a 3 day cruise into Moab is fine by me. I can get my fix for more technical stuff later during CM. I was just basing my questions on what it looked like was done in past years.

 

[KCJAZ]

So, I was able to sign up for the 1st kokopelli run and am thinking i'd just camp at Jouflas Campground on the night of the 20th. I asume I need to reserve a camp site on Recreation.gov?

 

[fyffer]

So, I was able to sign up for the 1st kokopelli run and am thinking i'd just camp at Jouflas Campground on the night of the 20th. I asume I need to reserve a camp site on Recreation.gov?

There are some dispersed locations in the area, I used one on Rabbit Valley 8 trail with overlook of CO river. About 15 min from meetup that's pretty nice.

 

[DaveInDenver]

There are some dispersed locations in the area, I used one on Rabbit Valley 8 trail with overlook of CO river. About 15 min from meetup that's pretty nice.

There's no free, dispersed camping in Rabbit Valley anymore. Knowles Overlook you can reserve an overlook campsite or Fluffle if you want to be close to Trail 8 and Rabbit's Ear. If you camped near Trail 8 in 2024 it was no longer allowed by the BLM. Now whether you get discovered or not, different matter. The Cruise Moab people may want to provide guidance, the reservations opened for Rabbit Valley sites back in February.

Rabbit Valley, Mcinnis Canyons National Conservation Area - Recreation.gov

Explore Rabbit Valley in Mcinnis Canyons National Conservation Area, Colorado with Recreation.gov. Five distinct campgrounds within Rabbit Valley were built for different user-types, from tent camping sites that retain a secluded feel to large group sites tha

www.recreation.gov

Knowles Overlook Campground | Bureau of Land Management

Knowles Overlook Campground is located in the Rabbit Valley Motorized Area, which is within McInnis Canyons National Conservation Area. This campground is intended to provide camping opportunities to those seeking tent or overland style camping experiences. The access road requires...

www.blm.gov

Yes, it sucks but it was inevitable when crap like this happens. I found the sign on the state line vandalized back in 2020. That's when the BLM first started putting restrictions on SxS and ATVs, which I guess upset someone. This is stuff we clean up on Mondays when everyone's gone back to SLC and Denver (of course, it's possible this wasn't a tourist, the grapevine never ratted anyone out). Normally I'll just straighten up, haul out trash but not much choice to involve the BLM to fix this.

 

[fyffer]

Well, just checked it was April 11/12 -21 above and between Me Canyon and Dog Island (PIC to Large). Don't recall seeing anything about Reservation and any Pay stations, if, then I would have done it. Beautiful area though, believe we drove to Knowles Overlook on day of Departure.

 

[fyffer]

There's no free, dispersed camping in Rabbit Valley anymore. Knowles Overlook you can reserve an overlook campsite or Fluffle if you want to be close to Trail 8 and Rabbit's Ear. If you camped near Trail 8 in 2024 it was no longer allowed by the BLM. Now whether you get discovered or not, different matter. The Cruise Moab people may want to provide guidance, the reservations opened for Rabbit Valley sites back in February.

Rabbit Valley, Mcinnis Canyons National Conservation Area - Recreation.gov

Explore Rabbit Valley in Mcinnis Canyons National Conservation Area, Colorado with Recreation.gov. Five distinct campgrounds within Rabbit Valley were built for different user-types, from tent camping sites that retain a secluded feel to large group sites tha

www.recreation.gov

Knowles Overlook Campground | Bureau of Land Management

Knowles Overlook Campground is located in the Rabbit Valley Motorized Area, which is within McInnis Canyons National Conservation Area. This campground is intended to provide camping opportunities to those seeking tent or overland style camping experiences. The access road requires...

www.blm.gov

Yes, it sucks but it was inevitable when crap like this happens. I found the sign on the state line vandalized back in 2020. That's when the BLM first started putting restrictions on SxS and ATVs, which I guess upset someone. This is stuff we clean up on Mondays when everyone's gone back to SLC and Denver (of course, it's possible this wasn't a tourist, the grapevine never ratted anyone out). Normally I'll just straighten up, haul out trash but not much choice to involve the BLM to fix this.

Ass wipes, reference to last 2 PIC's.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The BLM rules changed in 2023. To be honest it's not so much that they developed it, was starting to get out of hand with new sites popping up and mini trailer parks of toy haulers. But it's $20/night for a bunch of junk I don't want or need. I already have a fire pan, table and chairs, I'd prefer to just keep the Jackson, thankyouverymuch. Plus I used to just go up there whenever, leave work, ride, barley pops, crash, drive home in AM. Now it requires planning to see if a spot is open. Yippee, Captain Buzzkill and The Bring Down Gang.

FYI: https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/docs/2022-03/Rabbit Valley Fact Sheet with Graphics.pdf