Ioniq 5

[mcgaskins]

I’m still waiting for a car manufacturer to make an AWD EV for the people. The leaf while not exciting is something most people can afford. All the $60K+ AWD performance EV’s while super fun to drive are not really economical. The new Subaru EV will be $50K+ equipped decent. Getting there but it’s fuggly. I’m still doing the cost of ownership math on the Polestar 2. I love the car but it’s just a disposable daily driver for me. I’d rather save the extra money for say a 40 series build. I’ll probably just get a new Crosstrek or WRX.

The problem is the typical buyer *thinks* they need 300+ miles of range for their daily commute of 10-50 miles. More range means more battery cells which means more weight and cost, so that’s what OEMs are building. Prices won’t come down much until battery energy density goes up, commodities prices come down, and/or the demand shifts to vehicles with less range and lower performance.

 

[Corbet]

Lots of complications. Most people looking for the cheapest possible transportation probably don’t have an 80 Series sitting on 37’s in the driveway like I do when they need range. So yah the range is kind of an issue for most buyers. But I still see I big hole in the market for what I’m asking for. Hard for demand to go up on something that doesn’t exist. All the two car families out there could certainly live with one EV with a 150-200 mile range and low performance numbers.

 

[nakman]

When I ran the analysis on a Leaf vs. our hybrid RX450h comparing just fuel costs alone it was a break-even. Basically what I pay in electricity to keep a Leaf on the road is exactly what I paid for in gas to drive the RX. Except that we can only drive the Leaf 100 miles or so, and the RX could push 400 miles on a tank. The RX was around 30mpg most days... little worse on the highway, little better in town.

25 years ago, we had a 1991 Honda Civic that never got less than 35mpg. We drove it to Vegas once and I measured 42... heck you could fill it up and drive 90 miles before the needle even got down to the F line. If you filled it up again you'd be lucky to cram 2.5 gallons back in it. It blows me away that today there isn't a more efficient gas engine than they made back then.. not sure why. I don't even think the most efficient gas engines today are as good as they were back then. Heck if we still had that Civic we'd be about break-even with the Leaf, even adding in whatever maintenance that Honda needed. But it wouldn't have a steering wheel heater, or Apple carplay.

My only point is the only way an EV works for us is we've come to terms that it's a short-trip only vehicle. Drive it all day, plug it in every night, don't give efficiency another thought. Any long trip just induces needless range anxiety, and someone doing the math that for another $20 we could have just taken a bigger car with a better back seat, and getting gas only takes 5-10 minutes, and we already know where the gas stations are. All I do are short trips, or really long road trips. I'm kinda thinking it's wrong to force an EV to do things that are better for ICE vehicles, like drive from here to Moab, or take a road trip to California. I wish I could get a little electric flat bed mini truck that only has a 80 mile range, I'd love to plug that little bugger in every night. But when it's time for the next outlaws run, I'm picking a Land Cruiser.

 

[Corbet]

@nakman I’m right there with you. My 1988 Mercury Tracer (Mazda 323) got 40+ MPG in college. Yes it was a little shit box but I loved that car. My 2017 Impreza averages 22. I’d buy a Leaf if it could get me home but I need AWD. I’d buy an EV with a short range that does not scare me for my needs M-F.

 

[nakman]

@nakman I’m right there with you. My 1988 Mercury Tracer (Mazda 323) got 40+ MPG in college. Yes it was a little shit box but I loved that car. My 2017 Impreza averages 22. I’d buy a Leaf if it could get me home but I need AWD. I’d buy an EV with a short range that does not scare me for my needs M-F.

If you don't already know, let me be the first to tell you that a Leaf sucks absolute donkey balls in the snow and ice. It doesn't stop well, and going uphill is just comical... a perpetual yes/no fight between electric torque and traction control, the result of which is very little forward progress. It would probably be a little better if I gave it a new set of Blizzaks but it just feels like tossing good money after bad, it's not going to be revolutionary. Gavin (17 now, also 6'2" go figure) has taken over the GX470, but it's now become a standing rule that if it snows at night his mom is taking the GX to work. Then he can decide if he wants to take the Leaf, or dad's 200, or whatever. Funny that even a high school kid who likes to peel out at any opportunity will comment on just how awful that car is in snow. I couldn't imagine having to rely on it in your climate/driveway situation. you actually do need AWD.

 

[satchel]

I’m still waiting for a car manufacturer to make an AWD EV for the people. The leaf while not exciting is something most people can afford. All the $60K+ AWD performance EV’s while super fun to drive are not really economical. The new Subaru EV will be $50K+ equipped decent. Getting there but it’s fuggly. I’m still doing the cost of ownership math on the Polestar 2. I love the car but it’s just a disposable daily driver for me. I’d rather save the extra money for say a 40 series build. I’ll probably just get a new Crosstrek or WRX.

I have been surprised by the new Prius of all cars. Bet it will be contender for car of the year. AWD option with 200hp+ (almost double the previous gen) and no lack of range, while doing almost 60mpg. Probably doesn't have the ground clearance you are looking for but I bet they sell a ton of them. From some of the videos I have seen, it sounds like Mr. Toyoda is actually putting in his own influence on design now with the upcoming models and this is one he kept making them fix the look on. It's kinda sporty.

While I've always doubted the idea of having two motors to deal with instead of one, I think having the option of using the plug in ev battery side of things for 40ish miles of around town range and still having a gas motor for highway trips is making more sense instead of battery only. Especially for 1 car fams.

Priced from the low 30's to mid 40's

 

[Corbet]

I have not looked closely at the Prius in a while. Since 2015. Your are most likely correct on the ground clearance. In the past Toyota didn’t offer the option to disable the traction control on Prius models which was a deal breaker for me. To handle my hill up to the house I often have to do that even in the Subaru.

I’ve peaked at the Crown and Corolla GR but not too closely. GR only has 5.3” of ground clearance. 5.8” on he crown. Which I like it’s styling.

 

[Romer]

I read the 2024 GX is likely to be a plug in Hybrid. If not 2024 a few years later then. To me that is the sweet spot. A vehicle that can be an EV for all the in town trips and then switch to Gas for the long trips

 

[krice118]

Just wanted to say, this is some great conversation.

 

[ScaldedDog]

I think having the option of using the plug in ev battery side of things for 40ish miles of around town range and still having a gas motor for highway trips is making more sense instead of battery only.

I read the 2024 GX is likely to be a plug in Hybrid. If not 2024 a few years later then. To me that is the sweet spot. A vehicle that can be an EV for all the in town trips and then switch to Gas for the long trips

As one who hasn't the slightest interest in pure EVs, I can tell you our experience with my wife's X5 45e (plug-in hybrid) illustrates your points well. It's not just EV-for-local and gas-for-trips, though. Need to run to the airport (which is just over 100 miles round trip for us) at 80mph? Just go. The net will be that 30 of those miles will be run on $.15Kwh electrons, and the rest on $3.90 91 octane, but you don't know or care how those are mixed unless you pay very close attention. You just go.

The key to its drivability in all weather, I believe, is that fact that both power sources sit in front of a conventional drivetrain. That's a dramatically better implementation than, say, Volvo's, which uses gas for the front wheels and electric motors for the back. Even if you turn all the nannies off - and I don't know that you can - a computer still has to manage torque between the front and rear wheels. If Ken is right about the next-gen GX, I hope Toyota has enough sense to keep the current drivetrain setup, and just add an electric motor to the bell housing behind whatever gas motor they end up using, like BMW did. Even so, I'm sure glad I got my V8 model while I could.

The only downside to true hybrids, or at least to the X5, is that all that energy has to get stored somewhere. Having both a gas tank and battery costs a little cargo space, in a vehicle that is already not very space-efficient. The 45e loses an inch of depth in the cargo area compared to the 40i.

Mark

 

[Corbet]

I’m really curious how these high powered AWD EV’s handle snow. We don’t have any local resources to test drive. Our turbo outback can get loose easy if you want it to. With double the power I can only imagine the potential excitement.

 

[DouglasVB]

Plenty of electric cars head to Tahoe every weekend out here in Cali. Maybe drivers put them into eco mode or go easy on the skinny pedal?

 

[rover67]

As far as high powered AWD EV's go we drive our Model Y Performance in snow all the time, also we do the front range drive to summit/ski drive home a lot also. It does well in the snow and on the icy 2000' climb to our house on our daily drive to town, this is with cheap studless snow tires.. Also does fine on our dirt road. The traction control can be annoying but so far that's all it's been. You can disable for snowy climbs like say up the driveway (slip start) and it also has a off road mode that reduces the traction control. In either it still works and won't let you rip cookies or drift but it at least reduces it's nanny-ness. The regen braking can be interesting on ice but you get used to driving it. We also enjoy free charging at Beaver Creek which is nice when we make that treck. It was a little more than 60k all in yes, but we didn't have another good AWD option with space for skis/dogs/luggage at the time and we needed a commuter ASAP since AL's jetta blew up.

The long range isn't neccesary for most but we like it. Round trips to the airport (110mi round trip) or ski country (180 mi round trip) are no problem. We drive it like a gas car except we fill up at home. During the summer it costs us nothing since we overproduce on solar.

I know the thread isn't about teslas but it's our expereince.

 

[simps80]

My 1991 Geo Metro got 50 mpg on 3 cylinders with a five speed
And it was pretty good in the snow
If they made it today I would buy it
But if they made it today it would weigh 1500 more lbs and get 30 mpg

 

[gungriffin]

One interesting point towards getting something now even at a slightly higher price is that there is a 7500 federal credit and 2500 state right now. In 2023 the state rebate drops to 2000 and the the federal is unlikely to be 7500 any longer for most manufacturers. There are a lot of hoops the manufacturers have to jump through to get up to a full $7500 rebate. The IRA rebate will be income tested. So for some, it is possible the rebate could be $0 no matter what.

 

[gungriffin]

I have been surprised by the new Prius of all cars. Bet it will be contender for car of the year. AWD option with 200hp+ (almost double the previous gen) and no lack of range, while doing almost 60mpg. Probably doesn't have the ground clearance you are looking for but I bet they sell a ton of them. From some of the videos I have seen, it sounds like Mr. Toyoda is actually putting in his own influence on design now with the upcoming models and this is one he kept making them fix the look on. It's kinda sporty.

While I've always doubted the idea of having two motors to deal with instead of one, I think having the option of using the plug in ev battery side of things for 40ish miles of around town range and still having a gas motor for highway trips is making more sense instead of battery only. Especially for 1 car fams.

Priced from the low 30's to mid 40's

I love the new Prius. It is totally the sweet spot for where cars should be going. Small batteries and small engines. You get the best of both worlds.

There just won't be enough resources for every car in the world to have a 100kwh battery. A small battery to cover *most* commutes in every car would certainly be easy to do though.

 

[Corbet]

One interesting point towards getting something now even at a slightly higher price is that there is a 7500 federal credit and 2500 state right now. In 2023 the state rebate drops to 2000 and the the federal is unlikely to be 7500 any longer for most manufacturers. There are a lot of hoops the manufacturers have to jump through to get up to a full $7500 rebate. The IRA rebate will be income tested. So for some, it is possible the rebate could be $0 no matter what.

The Polestar 2 does not qualify for a fed credit. My understanding is things changed in August already.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicles with Final Assembly in North America

 

[DouglasVB]

I looked into the federal, state, air resource district, county, and city tax credits for where we live out here in Monterey, California recently and I don't qualify for anything anymore. Had I bought a year ago, I would have. But when it feels like every 10th car is electric around here, I guess they figure that electric car adoption is coming along well enough!

 

[gungriffin]

The Polestar 2 does not qualify for a fed credit. My understanding is things changed in August already.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicles with Final Assembly in North America

Oh wow. Thanks for setting me straight. That sucks that they phased that out early.

 

[DouglasVB]

The Ioniq 5 is still a hot whip even without any subsidies