Did someone forget to tell the Wolves?

[SteveH]

CSU Wolf study discussed here: https://gazette.com/news/wildlife/d...cle_b81b5bec-5253-517f-b81d-20989e166685.html

 

[J1000]

The wolves are moving. This map is based on evidence of wolf activity in water sheds, so they haven't covered the whole purple area, but have been to each watershed inside the purple area.

Looks like they are probably venturing into WY and coming nearly to Boulder County. Just a matter of time before they clash with humans and are killed or do the killing themselves.

Note: all 10 wolves have GPS trackers but they won't release the data publicly.

Wolf Sightings

cpw.state.co.us

 

[mcgaskins]

Somewhat off topic...I was just in Whistler the last week and a half for work, and I was driving between Whistler and Pemberton just after dark. I saw a very large canine run across the forest road in front of me with another set of eyes waiting just below the trail. I couldn't tell if it was a coyote, so I shared the story that night with a local at a restaurant. He said there have been TONS of gray wolf sightings in the area the last few weeks and was betting that's what it was. The area is truly stunning, and I saw a bear, lots of golden and bald eagles, deer, and other creatures, with the wolf being my fav (from the comfort of a vehicle of course).

 

[NotyourmomsWife]

Somewhat off topic...I was just in Whistler the last week and a half for work, and I was driving between Whistler and Pemberton just after dark. I saw a very large canine run across the forest road in front of me with another set of eyes waiting just below the trail. I couldn't tell if it was a coyote, so I shared the story that night with a local at a restaurant. He said there have been TONS of gray wolf sightings in the area the last few weeks and was betting that's what it was. The area is truly stunning, and I saw a bear, lots of golden and bald eagles, deer, and other creatures, with the wolf being my fav (from the comfort of a vehicle of course).

I'd love to see one in the wild someday... for now I'll have to settle for my velcro dog lol

 

[shellb]

The wolves are moving. This map is based on evidence of wolf activity in water sheds, so they haven't covered the whole purple area, but have been to each watershed inside the purple area.

Looks like they are probably venturing into WY and coming nearly to Boulder County. Just a matter of time before they clash with humans and are killed or do the killing themselves.

Note: all 10 wolves have GPS trackers but they won't release the data publicly.

Wolf Sightings

cpw.state.co.us

View attachment 127300

Continues to be fascinating! I have no “dog” in this fight…but absolutely love data and seeing how much they move is wild! Pun intended…

 

[cbmontgo]

I saw a black one up in Wyoming years ago. Was pretty impressive.

Also had a HUGE one walk up to my house in Divide in 2020. Turned out to be an escapee from a wolf sanctuary. My son and I got a kick out of it. Not something you get to see every day.

 

[J1000]

I saw a black one up in Wyoming years ago. Was pretty impressive.

Also had a HUGE one walk up to my house in Divide in 2020. Turned out to be an escapee from a wolf sanctuary. My son and I got a kick out of it. Not something you get to see every day.

Was it this guy?

 

[J1000]

Wolves update. Trapping them and moving them because of depredation. Cute wolf pups probably going to be abandoned and left to die. Probably will cost us $500,000 to move 2 wolves. It's not even been a year.

According to the map they are moving east and south towards populated areas in CO and north towards trigger happy ranchers in WY.

Wolf pack that attacked Colorado livestock to be relocated as reintroduction program stumbles

Wildlife agencies are trying to capture and relocate the first pack of wolves that formed under Colorado’s ambitious wolf reintroduction program.

apnews.com

Wildlife agencies are trying to capture and relocate the first pack of wolves that formed under Colorado’s ambitious wolf reintroduction program after the animals repeatedly attacked livestock, marking an early stumble in the voter-driven initiative.

The move comes only a week after state officials touted three pups born to the Copper Creek pack, which formed after 10 of the predators from Oregon were released in December over bitter opposition from livestock groups. The pack has at least two adults.

The bid to capture them goes against Colorado’s wolf management plan that was adopted last year. It included guidance that relocation “has little technical merit” because it could create problems elsewhere if the animals continue attacking livestock. The plan calls for using non-lethal approaches, such as patrolling ranches with range riders and scaring away problem wolves, or killing them if necessary to stop ongoing attacks on livestock.

Warning from Montana: https://coloradosun.com/2024/08/29/cpw-relocating-wolves-montana/

Scientists who trapped problem wolves in Montana and relocated them to a different part of the state agree that the process rarely ends well for young wolves that rely on their parents and do not know how to hunt.

A study of wolf translocations to reduce livestock conflicts in Montana published by wildlife scientists at the University of Montana and biologists with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service concluded that more relocated wolves died and survivors often killed livestock in their new locations. Of the 88 translocated wolves in the 2005 study, 58 died after the trapping and moving, which is a lower survival rate than wolves that were native to Montana.

This is why you don't let 51% of the population have say over the other 49%. Tyranny of the majority.

 

[LARGEONE]

Just wait until the brilliant Denver voters vote down hunting mountain lions!

I saw the best comment the other day...someone said, "I am going to reintroduce clams and oysters back into Colorado, because they were once here when Colorado was an ocean!" Made me laugh, but it makes about as much sense if you want to have a hunting industry in your state. Which, by the way, all of this seems like a back door effort to stop all big game hunting. The numbers will dwindle big-time if deer and elk are additionally pressured by wolves, increased big cats, and increasing population.

 

[Corbet]

This is why you don't let 51% of the population have say over the other 49%. Tyranny of the majority.

Doesn't that represent nearly every presidential election in recent times?

 

[J1000]

Doesn't that represent nearly every presidential election in recent times?

No, it's a Republic. President is elected by the states.

 

[DanS]

I saw the best comment the other day...someone said, "I am going to reintroduce clams and oysters back into Colorado, because they were once here when Colorado was an ocean!"

Somewhat amusing, until you ask yourself if the clams and oysters were removed from our lands via a political process, as large predators were.

As to the capture and movement of this pack, I've got some beef with the circumstances, but it's ultimately what we all agreed to. I would, however, note that the single ranch that has experienced this degradation and is causing this pack to be moved also refused to implement any form of deterrence (which is why their chronic depredation permit for lethal means was denied). It's almost as if it's a ranch with an axe to grind that wolf reintroduction passed, and is active working to make it a "failure." Almost.

Also of note: other ranches who implemented non lethal deterrents have seen depredation almost entirely cease. Crazy how that works.

Dan

 

[Corbet]

No, it's a Republic. President is elected by the states.

I realize not the exact same process. But the voting is nearly a 50/50 split and therefore not the choice of a large majority.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Somewhat amusing, until you ask yourself if the clams and oysters were removed from our lands via a political process, as large predators were.

As to the capture and movement of this pack, I've got some beef with the circumstances, but it's ultimately what we all agreed to. I would, however, note that the single ranch that has experienced this degradation and is causing this pack to be moved also refused to implement any form of deterrence (which is why their chronic depredation permit for lethal means was denied). It's almost as if it's a ranch with an axe to grind that wolf reintroduction passed, and is active working to make it a "failure." Almost.

Also of note: other ranches who implemented non lethal deterrents have seen depredation almost entirely cease. Crazy how that works.

Dan

Politically it's about that maybe, but it's not a question of majority or consensus. If one rancher is harmed shouldn't his or her vote or opinion be more weighted than 10,000 people living in condos in Denver who aren't? So agreement amongst the citizens isn't really an important distinction.

Same logic with a highway that serves a million drivers but required a hundred people lose their homes. The benefit vs. harm of decisions isn't uniformly borne by everyone. Every decision has pros and cons but when it's not a willing, voluntary interaction but rather imposed by force of law the sting can be quite a bit different.

In the case of food I defer to what the majority of ranchers and farmers think is the best option. They of course have their own motivations, such as you rightly mention is cost vs. profit. The reason wolves were hunted so intensively in the first place is they can be a nuisance that hurts a rancher's bottom line, which may or may not be important to a valid political stance nor indeed a commonly held belief now.

But that cannot be separated from the practical, in particular that a significant number of pro-wolf voters probably also consume $1 McDonald's hamburgers so were not before and are still not willing to offset what the rancher pays for deterrence, which is a real cost regardless.

Same with intensive factory farming or humane slaughter. Doing or not doing these things have a cost associated with them that is not zero to implement regardless of their political or legal status. IOW if voters would have bought ethically (and generally considerably more expensive) sourced beef in the first place the likelihood wolves could have re-established naturally, too.

Nevermind that many small or family ranchers are squeaking by as it is and can't absorb every small cost. A lot of them have a full time day job to pay for what amounts to a labor of love and trying to keep ownership of family land.

 

[nakman]

Nevermind that many small or family ranchers are squeaking by as it is and can't absorb every small cost. A lot of them have a full time day job to pay for what amounts to a labor of love and trying to keep ownership of family land.

What do you mean absorb... the article says they can get reimbursed for their animals that are killed by the wolves, up to $15,000. I don't know the lifetime value of a cow or sheep, but $15k seems like a lot? Not to turn this into a farm subsidy debate, but it just seems wasteful to uneducated me... we spent taxpayer money to introduce a wolf so that we can spend more of that money in case one of them kills a cow. Which is why I wasn't in favor of it from the start.

 

[Jenny Cruiser]

"July 12th. I wonder why it was that long ago I became a watcher of things." - Never Cry Wolf.

Some say we/they are spending tax payer's money, but the more I think about it, the more I think it isn't tax payer's money they're spending. In fact, I'm reasonably sure it's not.

 

[DaveInDenver]

What do you mean absorb... the article says they can get reimbursed for their animals that are killed by the wolves, up to $15,000. I don't know the lifetime value of a cow or sheep, but $15k seems like a lot? Not to turn this into a farm subsidy debate, but it just seems wasteful to uneducated me... we spent taxpayer money to introduce a wolf so that we can spend more of that money in case one of them kills a cow. Which is why I wasn't in favor of it from the start.

Live cattle closed at $1.86/lb today (8/30/2024). So figure the auction price for a head is going to be around $2,000.

 

[simps80]

@DaveInDenver
tell me more about these $1 mcdonald’s burgers…
is that a local thing?
do I need to sign up for a special program ?

As a cash starved fat kid I need more information!

 

[DaveInDenver]

 

[Tch2fly]

Live cattle closed at $1.86/lb today (8/30/2024). So figure the auction price for a head is going to be around $2,000.

Yeah it's not that simple, that lists what feeder cattle sell for but it depends what was lost as a result of predation. Was it a calf ... a first year heifer being raised as a replacement for aging stock ... we don't sell off everything at auction each year. Not to mention that a good well sired bull will run upward of $6000 to replace.
My family has been raising beef in Colorado since the 1800's and I'm glad we aren't in the mountains and being faced with this issue. Putting up fencing and other deterrents isn't cheap especially when the need arose due to the reintroduction they fought against.
Similar to wolves I'm unlikely to simply shoot coyotes on sight because they are needed in the ecosystem ... not enough coyotes then too many rabbits/prairie dogs and the good grass is mowed down and cattle suffer BUT get a pack that starts harassing the herds or killing calves then its depredation time. Wolves would be a great part of the system if they stuck to deer and elk but cattle are much easier. They are also more likely to hunt for sport or to teach pups, I've heard about attacks where they ate little to nothing ... like habituated bears it's time to move them or put them down.