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Did someone forget to tell the Wolves?

Corbet

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I’m opposed in CO due to population density and continued rapid development. Wildlife habit continues to be lost. Additionally the increase in population dives many deeper into the backcountry and wilderness areas in much greater numbers. This disrupts migration patterns, spring calving, etc putting more stress on existing wildlife populations. Adding wolves seems like a nail in the coffin for already struggling elk herds. Eliminating or drastically reducing hunting seems like it would be the only balance for the animals the wolves would take.

Now there certainly would be an argument for how the wolves would prey on the weak, sick, old rather than hunters targeting the trophies. Perhaps strengthening elk herds overall.

I can’t see the state of Colorado giving up the revenue hunting offers. Although I’d really like to see tags moving to draw only rather than the current system where an unlimited number of bull tags get issued. I’d happily pay double the cost of a resident tag if that meant half the number of hunters were in the woods.
 

nakman

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I tend to agree @Corbet the state is just too different now than the old days... just not practical to bring back the buffalo, or the wolves, to some form of how it was even 100 years ago. And when I look at the macro state of affairs here, we have so many issues to address as a state and a nation that IMO are more important than restoring a wolf population. Why invest the resources and waste my taxpayer money on this?
 

J1000

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Preface to say that I don't fall super strongly either way and I am an unabashed omnivore. But it seems that grey wolves are acknowledged to have widely ranged in Colorado a century ago.

View attachment 126582

Cary, M. 1911. A Biological Survey of Colorado. North American Fauna No. 33. Government Printing Office


Wolves were eradicated by ranchers and hunters for their reasons. I don't judge the logic, wolves are obviously competition.

But I think it's probably not all that controversial to suggest that killing so many bison, wolves and other species hasn't been our best moment in trying for a little harmony with nature.

So can I ask people to explain why we should or should not oppose reintroduction of wolves? Not emotional, Little Red Riding Hood was killed by a big, bad wolf nonsense. But actual reasons.

I know ranchers want no predators but if there's a cost to be borne by losing a few head there's worse subsidies and pork barrels filled by dump trucks of public money and compensating ranchers is barely a briefcase full. They already have hundreds of millions of acres of BLM land they lease at under market rates (compared to private silage farming). I'm not ignorant to the economic reality that meat comes with costs. You either hunt or ranch it and that ain't free.
Wolves and people don't cohabitate well. Wolves roam over vast amounts of land and don't stay in one place. They will wander into populated areas. Or most likely they will go into Wyoming and get shot. Coyotes and Foxes are scavengers and can live alongside people very well. Wolves attack people and kids, whereas pretty much nothing else in Colorado does. Even mountain lion or bear attacks are extremely rare and usually can be pinned on the person for doing something they shouldn't have. Wolves stalk people.

I find the whole thing crazy. This is tyranny of the majority. It was just a "feel good" bill that serves no actual purpose except to make people feel better about "belonging in nature" or " living in harmony" passed by only 1% majority. Nearly everyone that voted yes lives in a metro area and has no stakes in the game. Then we couldn't find a state willing to sell us wolves (oh gee wonder why) until the very last minute and bought wolves from Oregon, the state having come into possession of these wolves because they were attacking livestock and were trapped.

So it's all extremely predictable how this will all play out. I highly recommend the wolf sanctuary in Divide. Really cool place and you can go inside the kennels with the wolves and pet and get climbed on by them. One thing they keep harping on about is that once wolves are in captivity then they can never be released again. At least that's their philosophy and the federal government's position also. So it'll be interesting to see what the deal is with the Oregon wolves, how long were they in captivity and questions like that.

A012396.jpg


download.jpg


s-l16wolf.jpg


Petits_Paysans_surpris_par_un_loup.jpg
 

DaveInDenver

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just not practical to bring back the buffalo
Interesting you mention that. Setting aside practical near impossibility to repopulating the Plains with bison (or at least true free roaming) it's pretty well understood now just how much we damaged the ecosystem by slaughtering so many. The buzzwords of "regenerative ranching" is conceptually doing pretty much what bison always did in the first place throughout the Plains.

I don't know if you drive across Kansas much but if you do I found a walk I did in the Konza Prairie (a research plot used by Kansas State) very interesting. They have a bison herd and have studied how much of a keystone species they were to the prairie ecosystem. There were so many bison that their wallows are still prominent topographic features, important for flora and fauna still. You can find the geo-engineering from them in the Pawnee, too.

At some point following that topic thread led me to a book published back in 1911 by a guy named Franklin Hiram (F. H.) King titled "Farmers for Forty Centuries" that discusses this. The gist being that Japanese, Korean and Chinese farmers were able to farm the same plots of lands for thousands of years and the soil never died. Fundamental to that was grazing animals.


Wolves and people don't cohabitate well.
I know time can only go forward. Why does it have to be the wolf or us?
Wolves roam over vast amounts of land and don't stay in one place. They will wander into populated areas. Or most likely they will go into Wyoming and get shot. Coyotes and Foxes are scavengers and can live alongside people very well.
Wolves attack people and kids, whereas pretty much nothing else in Colorado does. Even mountain lion or bear attacks are extremely rare and usually can be pinned on the person for doing something they shouldn't have. Wolves stalk people.
Clutching your pearls in Victorian-era fear mongering isn't a solution.

Wolves do attack people and rabies is a factor. But they aren't any more likely to attack a human than a cat or bear and will for the same reasons, e.g. protective mothers, opportunistic, desperation. It's none of their faults we pushed into their habitats and I don't see how eradicating them for our convenience helped. I mean, I'm not going hesitate to protect myself from an encounter and attack, including killing a threatening predator. But we scoff at the gubermint "saving us from ourselves" with nanny air bags and crap. Why then do we advocate santiziing the lands "just to be safe?"


The degree to which wolves pose a threat to human safety has been a central part of the public​
controversy surrounding wolf recovery in Europe for the last three decades. This report seeks to​
update our knowledge for the period 2002 to 2020. We searched the peer-reviewed literature,​
technical reports, online news media sources and contacted regional experts to gather as much​
information as possible. Our coverage for Europe and North America is likely to be high, but for​
the rest of Eurasia we have at best found a good sample of events, especially for the period after​
2015. We identified relatively reliable cases involving 489 human victims. Of these 67 were vic-​
tims of predatory attacks (9 fatal), 380 were victims of rabid attacks (14 fatal), and 42 were victims​
of provoked / defensive attacks (3 fatal). Attacks were found in Canada, USA, Croatia, Poland,​
Italy, Iran, Iraq, Israel, India, Kirgizstan, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Russia,​
Mongolia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan and Saudi Arabia. In addition, we found an almost​
equal number of cases that we could not include because of poor documentation as well as​
cases that we could clearly reject based on evidence, for example where the attack was actually​
caused by dogs.​

If wolves were so antithetical to humans there would never have been dogs. So at some point the relationship wasn't all antagonistic. In Yellowstone/Grand Teton the risk must certainly be considered significant in the same way as is argued in Colorado (hunters, ranchers, recreation). So many tourists traipsing right in their habitat and nothing serious in human fatalities has happened (other than someone dispatching 20% of the population recently and there's cattle taken, not to gloss over it).




The most recent human fatality due a wolf attack in North America was 2010 in Alaska. The most recent (two in fact) mountain lion were 2018 in Oregon and Washington. As far as the Yellowstone pack, the last documented human-wolf attack in Wyoming was 1908 (it was only fatal to the wolves, several of which were shot) and there's none listed in Montana ever. A human is killed by a bear almost annually in North America.
 
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J1000

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Interesting you mention that. Setting aside practical near impossibility to repopulating the Plains with bison (or at least true free roaming) it's pretty well understood now just how much we damaged the ecosystem by slaughtering so many. The buzzwords of "regenerative ranching" is conceptually doing pretty much what bison always did in the first place throughout the Plains.

I don't know if you drive across Kansas much but if you do I found a walk I did in the Konza Prairie (a research plot used by Kansas State) very interesting. They have a bison herd and have studied how much of a keystone species they were to the prairie ecosystem. There were so many bison that their wallows are still prominent topographic features, important for flora and fauna still. You can find the geo-engineering from them in the Pawnee, too.

At some point following that topic thread led me to a book published back in 1911 by a guy named Franklin Hiram (F. H.) King titled "Farmers for Forty Centuries" that discusses this. The gist being that Japanese, Korean and Chinese farmers were able to farm the same plots of lands for thousands of years and the soil never died. Fundamental to that was grazing animals.



I know time can only go forward. Why does it have to be the wolf or us?


Clutching your pearls in Victorian-era fear mongering isn't a solution.

Wolves do attack people and rabies is a factor. But they aren't any more likely to attack a human than a cat or bear and will for the same reasons, e.g. protective mothers, opportunistic, desperation. It's none of their faults we pushed into their habitats and I don't see how eradicating them for our convenience helped. I mean, I'm not going hesitate to protect myself from an encounter and attack, including killing a threatening predator. But we scoff at the gubermint "saving us from ourselves" with nanny air bags and crap. Why then do we advocate santiziing the lands "just to be safe?"


The degree to which wolves pose a threat to human safety has been a central part of the public​
controversy surrounding wolf recovery in Europe for the last three decades. This report seeks to​
update our knowledge for the period 2002 to 2020. We searched the peer-reviewed literature,​
technical reports, online news media sources and contacted regional experts to gather as much​
information as possible. Our coverage for Europe and North America is likely to be high, but for​
the rest of Eurasia we have at best found a good sample of events, especially for the period after​
2015. We identified relatively reliable cases involving 489 human victims. Of these 67 were vic-​
tims of predatory attacks (9 fatal), 380 were victims of rabid attacks (14 fatal), and 42 were victims​
of provoked / defensive attacks (3 fatal). Attacks were found in Canada, USA, Croatia, Poland,​
Italy, Iran, Iraq, Israel, India, Kirgizstan, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Russia,​
Mongolia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan and Saudi Arabia. In addition, we found an almost​
equal number of cases that we could not include because of poor documentation as well as​
cases that we could clearly reject based on evidence, for example where the attack was actually​
caused by dogs.​

If wolves were so antithetical to humans there would never have been dogs. So at some point the relationship wasn't all antagonistic. In Yellowstone/Grand Teton the risk must certainly be considered significant in the same way as is argued in Colorado (hunters, ranchers, recreation). So many tourists traipsing right in their habitat and nothing serious in human fatalities has happened (other than someone dispatching 20% of the population recently and there's cattle taken, not to gloss over it).




The most recent human fatality due a wolf attack in North America was 2010 in Alaska. The most recent (two in fact) mountain lion were 2018 in Oregon and Washington. As far as the Yellowstone pack, the last documented human-wolf attack in Wyoming was 1908 (it was only fatal to the wolves, several of which were shot) and there's none listed in Montana ever. A human is killed by a bear almost annually in North America.
I'm not going to go back and forth but I will say one thing. The reason wolf attacks are rare is because the areas where wolves and humans clash have long had the wolves eradicated for just about as long as the area has been settled. The art I shared previously is of the American west except the last one.

The only wolf reintroductions I know of are in Yellowstone and in southern NM/AZ. Areas which are significantly less populated than CO is becoming and also on land that is designated as a Recovery Area/National Park.
 

bh4rnnr

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There's been reports of Wolf activity at the property.


:beer::beer:
 

DaveInDenver

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The illustration of the wolf and stagecoach came from a British children's school magazine called Look and Learn. That was published November 1965, and is wildly dramatic about the American Wild West.



The Lynn Bogue Hunt, was painted in 1935 for a book titled "Broken Fang," a story about a wolf/dog hybrid that is under constant suspicion by cowboys of reverting to its wild roots but rather distinguishes itself as faithful. It's in a similar vein as "White Fang," which most everyone has read and isn't a simple wolf bad, dog good story.



The one with the children is "Petits Paysans Surpris par un Loup" or "Little Peasants Surprised by a Wolf" but often just called "Wolf Attack" painted by Grenier de Saint Martin in France in 1833.


The black-and-white I don't recognize but it looks to me to be about werewolves or something. Dunno.
 
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LARGEONE

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I’ll echo the reasons @Corbet mentioned, but also add that wolves do not kill just to eat. They kill because it is in their nature to do so. If a pack of wolves come upon 40 elk calves that were just born they will kill all of them and eat maybe 6 or seven. Dont believe me…use the google machine. Think of what your bird dog would do if you threw him/her in a pin of 40 chickens. Would it kill one and eat it, then maybe kill another because it was still hungry? Or would it go on a killing frenzy and kill all of them? You know the answer…it is what dogs do, they hunt, and kill. They enjoy the hunt as much or more than the food reward. Every single chicken would be at least maimed if not dead.

With Overpopulation of humans in CO we are already struggling to keep the elk numbers up. And then last year we had one of the worst winter kill offs in the NW part of CO that we have EVER had. And right after the winter kill, because Boulder and Denverites hope to see wolves on their twice a year dives to Vail, the CPW introduces wolves right in the areas where elk already lost 60% of their herd. It’s just STUPID!
 

Stepmurr

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The black-and-white I don't recognize but it looks to me to be about werewolves or something. Dunno.

 

DanS

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I’ll echo the reasons @Corbet mentioned, but also add that wolves do not kill just to eat. They kill because it is in their nature to do so. If a pack of wolves come upon 40 elk calves that were just born they will kill all of them and eat maybe 6 or seven. Dont believe me…use the google machine. Think of what your bird dog would do if you threw him/her in a pin of 40 chickens. Would it kill one and eat it, then maybe kill another because it was still hungry? Or would it go on a killing frenzy and kill all of them? You know the answer…it is what dogs do, they hunt, and kill. They enjoy the hunt as much or more than the food reward. Every single chicken would be at least maimed if not dead.
Citation needed, my friend.

Because one of the fascinating oddities about wolves is that they do not generally engage in surplus killing. Hunting a large mammal is pretty dangerous for a wolf, so they only hunt once they need food (and there's studies that it's the early stages of starvation that trigger their instinct to hunt).

Surplus killing just isn't a behavior normally seen in wolves.

The one exception to this is coyotes. Wolves seem to go out of their way to kill coyotes.

Dan
 

LARGEONE

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I’ll find the video in Montana or Yellowstone (can’t remember) where they took out 16 calves and just left them.

Edit. Wyoming dept of wildlife


Same incident another view. This is the one to read to the end.
 
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shellb

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I’ll find the video in Montana or Yellowstone (can’t remember) where they took out 16 calves and just left them.

Edit. Wyoming dept of wildlife


Same incident another view. This is the one to read to the end.

Can you post the actual report from division of wildlife in Wyoming?

Those candidly are nothing articles with no proof.

I’m just asking. I deal in crisis everyday and know sensationalism.

I have no “wolf” in this debate, but those aren’t proof of anything.
 

LARGEONE

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There is a link to the CNN in the article in the NRA journal if that is what you are looking for? Because CNN is definitely proof :) There are also quoted Dept of Wildlife workers in same article.

How about National Geographic?

I will say...the article mentions that this is a RARE event, and possibly the reason for the coverage of the incident?
 
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shellb

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Yeah that’s fair enough! It’s a tough thing to navigate for sure!

I’ll say we had a “highish” impact regional event this week and all coverage concerning the facts including local LEO were incorrect.

I guess I’m naturally suspect. I’d gladly share this if anyone is curious/would like a confirm.

Oddly enough, we just had a group of coyotes run through our property a few mins ago. My dogs think they’re tough but I don’t want any of that smoke in our neighborhood.

Very intriguing predicament.
 

Yarn Cruiser

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I would recommend these books
Never Cry Wolf by Farley Mowat
The Beast in the Garden by David Baron
The Animal Dialogues by Craig Childs

The first one is about wolves, the second is about Mountian lions on the front range, mostly in the Boulder area and the third is the authors personal experience in the wilderness with animals. My favorite story is his encounter with ravens in the Utah wilderness.
 

Stepmurr

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I’ll find the video in Montana or Yellowstone (can’t remember) where they took out 16 calves and just left them.

Edit. Wyoming dept of wildlife


Same incident another view. This is the one to read to the end.
Was this an "eat one now and store 18 elk in the freezer" situation? Every hunter I know kills more than they can eat and brags about how much meat they stored away in their freezer. Why would wolfies be any different? Man is the ultimate surplus killer . . .
 

Corbet

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Was this an "eat one now and store 18 elk in the freezer" situation? Every hunter I know kills more than they can eat and brags about how much meat they stored away in their freezer. Why would wolfies be any different? Man is the ultimate surplus killer . . .

…. I’ve always eaten everything I’ve harvested before the next hunting season.
 

Stepmurr

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…. I’ve always eaten everything I’ve harvested before the next hunting season.
Sorry, I should have said "kills more than they can eat at the time of kill" I did not mean to imply a wasting of meat by anyone.
 

LARGEONE

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I have never seen a “wolf freezer”.

My point holds true that wolves are dogs and if you unleash a dog on any prey that it can take easily, it will kill all of them…even if it could never eat them in a lifetime. While the article says that it is rare, unfortunately the conditions that make it possible to kill many elk at one time are the conditions that CPW has to help elk get through the winter. Humans have cut off so many of the migratory routes that the elk are already struggling.

I love wolves. I used to go up all the time to the wolf sanctuary near divide when I lived in CO springs. However, just think we should have let wolves come into CO naturally as they were already doing. Not by some vote of city people who have no skin in the game.
 
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