Chinamans is no longer Chinamans.

[ScaldedDog]

Being offended is a hobby for some, and a profession for others.

Mark

 

[J1000]

In before someone says "Rising Sun" is an offensive name for our club.

 

[nuclearlemon]

From what I understand the initial complaint of the name Chinamans gulch was from some lady from California. I dont know if she had even been to the area. Maybe she just looks at map names in order to find issues she has with names.

and we should not have to bow to anyone who doesn't have a clue what's going on just because they're offended by some place they've never been to's name. it's time to end this "woke" b.s. and get on with life.

all those complaining about negro bill canyon probably never read a thing about him. history, which i admit could be wrong, states negro bill called himself that. just like nancy green went from being an enslaved woman to being the most famous peddler of syrup and she and her family lived a comfortable life instead of dying poor. society says we should hate kit carson because he killed indians, but he befriended far more than he killed and had an indian wife.

 

[FireMike]

Time for a Chinaman run soon.

Yes sir I'm in. BTW, Scott I've got your picture you forgot at the meeting and I'll bring it to the snow run.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

The worst part of all this is we are stuck here bickering about a name of a canyon instead of being livid about the price of eggs doubling because our state government cares more about chicken welfare than not hollowing out the middle class and pushing the lower class lower. Who wants to go egg the Capitol with me?

 

[nuclearlemon]

The worst part of all this is we are stuck here bickering about a name of a canyon instead of being livid about the price of eggs doubling because our state government cares more about chicken welfare than not hollowing out the middle class and pushing the lower class lower. Who wants to go egg the Capitol with me?

a lot of the cost of eggs is also the avian flu and all the "fires" at processing plants. avian flu has infected tons though. here in wyoming, they've put a hold on the small animal and poultry market they used to have every month because it's been going around. a neighbor had to kill almost half her flock when migrating birds infected them.

the free range thing doesn't help prices though.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

a lot of the cost of eggs is also the avian flu and all the "fires" at processing plants. avian flu has infected tons though. here in wyoming, they've put a hold on the small animal and poultry market they used to have every month because it's been going around. a neighbor had to kill almost half her flock when migrating birds infected them.

the free range thing doesn't help prices though.

True it is a culmination of several factors, the price of diesel included in that. Still doesn't make it any less frustrating, speaking as someone who has seen what purchasing power they had hollowed out so bad in the past three years (pretty sure I'm close to being back down where I was when I started in my industry 11 years ago).

 

[AimCOTaco]

Glad the trail stays open! A real loss to me would have been closure, this simple re-name seems like a non-issue to me in the big picture.

 

[White Stripe]

Ya glad its still open.

 

[DouglasVB]

Here's a news story from Dec 2021 talking about the name change. It's been in the works since 2020.

Geographic naming board agrees to scrape offensive name from Chaffee County gulch

The geographic naming board recommended renaming “Chinaman Gulch” in Chaffee County to Yan Sing Gulch, meaning “resilience” in Chinese

coloradosun.com

 

[rushthezeppelin]

Here's a news story from Dec 2021 talking about the name change. It's been in the works since 2020.

Geographic naming board agrees to scrape offensive name from Chaffee County gulch

The geographic naming board recommended renaming “Chinaman Gulch” in Chaffee County to Yan Sing Gulch, meaning “resilience” in Chinese

coloradosun.com

Lol government is so efficient it takes them 2 years just to change a name.......

 

[Inukshuk]

.... and had an indian wife.

In college in NY 1987-1991 we were taught the correct reference to indigenous people of the current area of the United States was Native American and that Indian was offensive. In case you do not know, NY and the other Eastern states had large populations of Native Americans before Europeans arrived.
In law school in Colorado 1993-1996 the universal reference to the same people was Indian, and this by respected and admired professors who actually worked with the Indian population.

Being offended is a hobby for some, and a profession for others.

Agreed.

Personally, I think the gulch formerly known as Chinaman's is:
1) arguably an offensive name because it would have been given at the time where someone would have applied the accurate inoffensive descriptive term in a derogatory fashion, and
2) arguably not offensive because it is an accurate inoffensive descriptive term giving awareness through place naming of the role (a massive role) Chinese immigrant labor played building the railroads of the United States, as in this local article:

“Here a long time ago, when I was old enough to ride a horse, we drove cattle up Chinaman Gulch. My father showed me under that tree ‘there be the Chinaman’s cabin,’” said 87-year-old rancher Joe Cogan. “There were a low cabin, logs, and roof and a pile of rocks [and] apparently a fireplace. I said, ‘Where’s the Chinaman?’ And dad said, ‘He’s long gone, but he cut ties in here to sell to the railroad.’ The Chinaman was a tie-hack – that’s what we called ’em. He was gone by 1889 – by the time we [Cogan’s] arrived. It’s part of the history of Chaffee County.”​

​

The role of Chinese immigrants in mining and the building of Colorado railroads is a fact. According to the GBN, a section of the Middle Fork South Platte River near Alma, 33 miles to the north, has been referred to as Chinaman’s Gulch or Chinamen’s Gulch because of the many Chinese miners living there in the 1800s. Chinamans Canyon is located 130 miles to the southeast in Las Animas County.​

​

“Something isn’t derogatory simply because of the term,” said Cogan. “We’re from Ireland. When we came, we were called all sorts of names – flannel mop Irish, micks, fish-eaters – dad came from southern Ireland. It isn’t derogatory to use people’s place of origin … If Irishman or Scotsman isn’t derogatory, why would Chinaman be?”​

​

“The Chinese worked on the railroads here,” said Suzy Kelly. “That explains why it’s called Chinaman’s Gulch. If you look across the river, there were what were called Coolie Houses, where the Chinese lived when they were building the railroad. Chinaman isn’t derogatory – Coolie probably is — but Chinaman isn’t. The name honors the fact that they worked on all these railroads here. It’s history, but not a lot of people know that now.”​

Chaffee upholds historical accuracy for Chinaman Gulch - by Jan Wondra - Ark Valley Voice

When does the history of a place become subjugated to what at least one person considers political correctness? Chaffee County's heritage came up during

arkvalleyvoice.com

​

Its a process and conversation. I hope Yan Sing Gulch gets a sign honoring the Chinese man's cabin.

My forum name and avatar are culturally appropriated from First Nations peoples.

 

[Cruisertrash]

@Inukshuk The history of the people in that gulch is the real story, the real conversation, the real way to honor people. Thanks for telling it.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Ultimately is it an issue? No, it really isn't.
Is it a good use of government time and money? Absolutely not.
I completely understand why this kind of stuff generates such hard eye rolls. I rolled my eyes at this as well.

I'd much rather they took the time to put together an accurate history of these areas and have a section on the forest service website were the histories of these areas can be explained in detail to be shared with new generations of users. (Who are woefully under educated in history to begin with.) Also putting time and money into making historical markers that are placed at the trail heads of these trails, that explain the history of the areas and why they are named what they are, would be a good idea. For example, this is common practice in Texas. You'll find historical markers all over Texas, in some of the most remote and obscure places. They tell stories that would otherwise be completely lost to time.

That would be a much better use of resources, in my opinion, so future generations can learn about what took place in these areas and the people who were instrumental in making them what they are today.

But anyways, it's still open and we can still go wheel it.
I feel, however, that it will be a long time before the new name for this trail becomes common knowledge/commonly used. Probably a generation at least.

Just my

I'm also curious if China Wall is on the name change docket next...

 

[Inukshuk]

The president of the club shouldn’t be actively promoting the use of outdated & racist names. Times change, we should change with them, and always focus on trying to be more inclusive as a club, rather than less.

Well said and at the same time I would invite everyone to not judge nor attack anyone.

My opinion is if we see a club member saying or doing something we disagree with to first bring it up privately.

Double especially if it is a member who is voluntarily taking on a leadership position. We owe it to them to err on the side of being supportive.

More than a few here have received a call from me if they said or did something that may have been unknowingly or knowingly offensive. Some of my best friends here. I have received more than a few calls or messages myself telling me that i was insensitive, a jerk, both, or worse.

I value being in a community of our common hobby of Land Cruisers and Toyota 4x4's and all things related, with decent people, and exposure to different backgrounds, work, life experience, politics, and total inclusivity. Privately we can be equal opportunity offensive jokers. I know with 100% certainly that if anyone here was actually racist, sexist, homphobic, mysogonistic, or any other kind of hater, they'd get the boot faster than Paul Walker could say "Hey, let's go for a drive'." (respectfully)

Reminds me of this joke: A Jew was in the desert bunch of Mormons. In the morning the Jew asked who wanted some Arab Turkish coffee. One Mormon (a coffee drinking type) piped up, "they're all Mormon, they don't drink coffee. BUt I'll have some." Another quipped, "who brought the Jew." A third piped in, "its ok, he's Chosen." And they all lived happily ever after.

 

[Hulk]

In before someone says "Rising Sun" is an offensive name for our club.

Oh, the name of our club is offensive on purpose.

Chinaman's Gulch was named for the Chinese man who lived there. When it was named, "Chinaman" wasn't considered offensive by anyone, including the Chinese.

But Rising Sun? Let's remember the environment of 1981:

• Japan was not known as the manufacturer of quality products. You know how Harbor Freight tools are spoken of as Chinese junk? It was just like that in the 70s and early 80s for Japanese-made goods. I had a set of late-70s Japanese sockets that were absolute crap. If you bought a Japanese blow dryer, it would last a year. Their stereo electronics were good, but Japan wasn't known for universally high-quality products.
• People would call any Japanese vehicle a "rice burner." There were a lot fewer foreign cars on the road back then, especially Japanese cars outside of California. I was in high school in Missouri in 1981 and we used to laugh at the guys who drove shitty little Datsuns and Toyotas and Hondas. People bought Japanese cars because they were fuel efficient, not because they were cool (except for the 280Z of course).
• You know how people say the world has gotten a lot smaller with technology, airplanes, and the internet? Not in 1981. People had a very narrow and limited view of the world. They automatically distrusted anything made outside of the U.S. And you could still get most every product made in the U.S.
• WWII had ended only 36 years previous. The average WWII vet was about my age now. There were still plenty of people who hated Japan because they'd had friends die fighting in the war. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, not the Germans.
• We'd been involved in 2 more wars in Asia since WWII as well: Korea and Vietnam. Japan wasn't involved, of course, but many people don't care to discern the difference.
• The Rising Sun flag is known as the war flag of Japan. It was the flag of the Imperial Japanese Army dating back to 1870. Variations of the Rising Sun flags were used by their military until Japan's surrender in World War II in August 1945. Japan stopped using the flag for about a decade after WWII ended, and even now its use is considered controversial, mostly by other Asian countries (where it is associated with Japan's wartime atrocities).

OK, so that's what things were like back then. Now imagine you own an FJ40 and everyone else owns a Jeep, a Bronco, or a Scout — but especially Jeeps. They were everywhere, especially the CJ5. You're sick and tired of hearing "rice burner." The joke stopped being funny after the 100th time you heard it, if it was ever funny at all. People kind of spit it at you, and not always in a friendly way. You're sick of being the only dude with a Toyota in a group of Jeeps. Eventually, guys with FJ40s kind of find each other and decide to form their own club.

What are you going to name your new club? What's a name that could be super offensive and a giant middle finger to all the Jeep guys? You probably weren't even aware of the California clubs like "Toys on the Rocks." TLCA was a mostly California deal back in 1981 (RS didn't become a TLCA chapter until the mid-90s). You're still pissed at all the Jeep guys for being constant dicks.

Rising Sun. Literally, the name is a giant F U to everyone else.

I joined TLCA in 1996, and I remember seeing the Rising Sun name in the list of chapters. Even then, I thought, "Whoa, those guys must be a bunch of assholes." It was an aggressive name. I was even a little hesitant to check out the club when I first moved here in 1997 because of the name. Seriously.

The gut reaction to the name has waned in the last 42 years. But when the club was formed, it was still fresh. And it was not meant to be friendly and welcoming.

 

[twentyfooteighty]

The president of the club shouldn’t be actively promoting the use of outdated & racist names. Times change, we should change with them, and always focus on trying to be more inclusive as a club, rather than less.

Sometimes it’s better to send a PM rather than call someone out on a public forum. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but this makes it look like you are just looking to make public drama.

 

[Crash]

Oh, the name of our club is offensive on purpose.

<snip>

Rising Sun. Literally, the name is a giant F U to everyone else.

That's how my Dad took it when I told him back in 2001 that I had joined the Rising Sun Toyota Club. It visibly irritated him as he was a Navy torpedo bomber pilot in the South Seas during WWII. I never brought it up again because I respected his sensitivity.

 

[J1000]

@Hulk absolutely and I know that history. There are many angles to it and a few other specific ways it could be deemed offensive. That said, just because something can be offensive doesn't mean it needs to be changed.

 

[gr8fulabe]

Sometimes it’s better to send a PM rather than call someone out on a public forum. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but this makes it look like you are just looking to make public drama.

Ironic that you don’t heed your own advice.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but in this case respectfully, I disagree. Privately pointing out support for offensive language, simply leaves the original statement in place, with no mention from others in the club that it isn’t approved of. That means that anyone searching the club out can find it, and then decide we aren’t the place for them, instead of giving it a chance.

Like I said, times change & we need to change with them. Surely nobody here would argue to go back to segregation. It was perfectly acceptable back in the day & is a long & storied part of our past, so it must be okay, right? No, everyone here would agree that it was ultimately offensive & an archaic piece of history that deserves to be left behind.

I’d like to think that everyone here recognizes the difference between simple offensive language, and racial slurs & such also. “The aristocrats” is an offensive joke, but relies on no stereotypes or slurs to get there. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I’ve been perfect my whole life. But I do try to better better tomorrow, than I am today. And to that end, I’ll admit that my first post was rushed (trying to shoot out of work at the time) not very tactful, and certainly now phrased the way I was thinking in my head. So Andy, I would like to offer my apologies for a poorly worded response. I didn’t mean to sound accusatory, or call you out directly, or anything like that. So I’m sorry if my post gave you any stress, as that wasn’t my intent. Club leadership has an oversized megaphone, and an outward visibility that the rest of us don’t. And as such, needs to be twice as thoughtful all the time. Not just you, but anyone that has been in the leadership spot. I hope you’ll forgive me, and not see the post as an attack.
Best
Abe