Beers & Radios?

Corbet

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This is something I’d love to participate in but location won’t really allow me to do. I was also part of the initial wave of RS members who did the licensing class and have long since forgotten most of the info. I got one of my friends down here to get his license but now with GMRS it’s a hard sale for the rest.
 

DanInDenver

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Some advice and homework perhaps prior to a meetup. IMHO take some time to learn some basics on your particular radio. Look up some how to videos etc, glance at the manual.
Each manufacturer differs in how to input stations or change bands, etc.
I still have a devil of a time with my Baofeng and the Kenwood would regularly get me lost in options.
Then the in person time can be spent practicing radio - radio, radio - repeater - radio, etc…
 

DaveInDenver

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As a licensed ham operator I’m a bit offended by this post because I don’t know what any of this means 😬. No offense Dave.

I’m barely capable of dialing up a number and pushing the transmit button on my crappy $35 Chinese handheld.

Does anyone have a good source for learning “ham for dummies”? Maybe a good YouTube channel or something?
I’ve watched NotaRubicon on YouTube a few times but he only discusses gmrs. And his “style” can be a little off putting.

I feel like my learning style would be best suited for an in-person training. One that could include some hands on interaction and some practical application.
For what it's worth, I don't think there's value in club-wide amateur radio classes. Ham radio is a hobby you have to want to participate in, tinker, experiment, practice, volunteer. It's just too broad to condense down to "just what you need to know."

The issue here is amateur radio licensing assumes you will be proficient since you are given a lot of authority and responsibility. You don't have to use it all but you have to be aware of it at least to the extent that you don't violate any rules or FUBAR it for yourself or others. It's sort of like being given the keys when you turn 16 to a Trophy Truck when all you really need is a 2WD mini truck.

You can present a very high level survey of things but you eventually just have to dig in and learn what interests you. Sink or swim on your own, what aspect you want to participate (e.g. actually interact with other hams) and what questions you need to ask. Everything to understand what all that stuff in the post meant was covered in the classes and other threads in the sub-forum.

We tried to do club Field Days, an annual ARRL event where hams go out in the field, camp, set up a portable station and test their ability to make contacts off grid. No one ever came with us, it was the same few of us who were hams before the classes. You don't even have to be upgraded to General or Extra, we can act as control operators and let Technicians or even unlicensed people do the talking. But the idea of spending a weekend playing radio wasn't compelling, which I thought would have for sure.

GMRS is really the better fit. It's more equipment agnostic. If we could go back 15 years I'd structure this as a maybe an hour in a class room running through basics of operating and rules and then spend a couple of hours hand's on using a sampling of FRS and GMRS radios. You can come out of a half day class and be a very competent operator.

The difference is in the focus, GMRS/FRS is supporting the main one, to get information across while four wheeling. You can use ham radio to do that but you have to have put in the work ahead, which the FCC and manufacturers do for you with FRS/GMRS.

Yeah, 100%, it needs to be live and in person, hand's on. You can't learn radio operation in a one-way teacher->student on Zoom. Well, you can, but you have to have a radio on each end to practice. That might work.
 
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MoFunna4l2unna

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It sounds like is a lot of interest in the group for some radio education! I didn't know what to expect when i posted (I'm a FNG club wise). I think the original intent was to target GMRS competence. HAM is cool, and useful, and id personally love to know more at some point, but it doesn't seem as pertinent at the moment as the more commonly used GMRS/FRS systems, club wise. Maybe we could setup an online vote for a time and place to see what could work best for the most people? I've seen that done on here before. What kind of venue would work best?

just had an idea (dangerous, i know)...

Bring snacks/beverages to a park so we have some space, get schooled a bit by those with the experience, split into groups on opposite ends of the park and practice a bit/struggle together? could also be a good excuse for a spring BBQ in the park after if people are interested? rigs, radios, BBQ, little club social time?

Cardinalfj60, I appreciate you offering to help. what you proposed sounds great to me. Any thoughts on the above idea?

I’d be comfortable giving an intro to radios 101: for non-majors. General overview info delivered in low tech, easy terms so you know enough to be dangerous.

But enough so you could:
  • sound really smart with the bbq conversation with a neighbor who knows nothing about this stuff
  • Learn some vocabulary
  • Top 10 tips and tricks about radio stuff
  • fumble through a radio (GMRS/frs, ham, cb?) to transmit and receive
  • Know a few super simple troubleshooting tips if your junk or someone’s radio ain’t working so good on the trail
  • Pick up a few Good operator practices
That’s off the top of my head. Intent is to simplify things. maybe we do a 101 then maybe someone who’s really good at more complex stuff, perhaps on the western slope could do 201 or 301. Hint hint, hi Dave. 😉🤪

Thoughts?
 

MoFunna4l2unna

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And Dave, I really appreciate your perspective as well! If you were able to help that would be great. seems like you're a little farther out of town than most?
 

NotyourmomsWife

Cruise Moab Committee
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It sounds like is a lot of interest in the group for some radio education! I didn't know what to expect when i posted (I'm a FNG club wise). I think the original intent was to target GMRS competence. HAM is cool, and useful, and id personally love to know more at some point, but it doesn't seem as pertinent at the moment as the more commonly used GMRS/FRS systems, club wise. Maybe we could setup an online vote for a time and place to see what could work best for the most people? I've seen that done on here before. What kind of venue would work best?

just had an idea (dangerous, i know)...

Bring snacks/beverages to a park so we have some space, get schooled a bit by those with the experience, split into groups on opposite ends of the park and practice a bit/struggle together? could also be a good excuse for a spring BBQ in the park after if people are interested? rigs, radios, BBQ, little club social time?

Cardinalfj60, I appreciate you offering to help. what you proposed sounds great to me. Any thoughts on the above idea?
LOVE this idea!!!! Thank you so much Will for posting it up!
 

nakman

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Great to see so much interest here. My suggestion is skip the vote and someone just post up when/where you'd like to meet up, what specific thing you want to talk about, and maybe 1-2 others can make it, and I'd guess you will get more out of that than you would from a large more formal classroom setting.

It's just not possible to structure a class for ham technician's refresher + GMRS for Cruise Moab + APRS + SSB QSO's for Generals an infinitum. Also it's never possible to find a location and time that works for absolutely everyone. But like exercise, writing, studying for a test... multiple short sessions will far outweigh one big cram session... plus you'll learn best by operating someone else's rig while they sit in the truck with you, more one on one vs. big groups.


So that end, I could probably do a demo at Rooney park before the May 7th RS meeting.. if someone wants to see my APRS setup, or just have me look at theirs, etc. But if someone wants to do more FRS stuff prior to CM, you should post up a date/time and see who can do it. This week before jack-it night might work for some other south siders? post up if that's you. I'm likely out though, it'd be a stretch just to get down there by 6:30 and then I'm there to talk about recovery stuff.
 

NotyourmomsWife

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Great to see so much interest here. My suggestion is someone just post up when/where you'd like to meet up, what specific thing you want to talk about, and maybe 1-2 others can make it, and I'd guess you will get more out of that than you would from a large more formal classroom setting. It's just not possible to structure a class for ham technician's refresher + GMRS for Cruise Moab + APRS + SSB QSO's for Generals an infinitum. Also it's never possible to find a location and time that works for absolutely everyone. But like exercise, writing, studying for a test... multiple short sessions will far outweigh one big cram session.


So that end, I could probably do a demo at Rooney park before the May 7th RS meeting.. if someone wants to see my setup, or just have me look at theirs, etc. But if someone wants to do more FRS stuff prior to CM, you should post up a date/time and see who can do it. This week before jack-it night might work for some other south siders? It'll be a stretch just to get down there by 6:30 for others.
I’d be down to do it before CM on a weekend? I think that might work well for a lot of folks too.
 

Johnny Utah

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This is a great thread. Thanks for everyone contributing. @DaveInDenver , I think you’re totally right about wanting to learn HAM. It’s easy to ask for help, but it’s also about putting forth the effort to learn about it.

I really like the idea of meeting at a park to practice with the radios. I would benefit from getting together with some people and practicing some techniques on GMRS.

Ham is cool, but it requires some dedication and commitment to learn the basics.

Since GMRS is our club’s preferred way to communicate, it makes sense to start there.

I enjoy the simplicity of GMRS but I would like to get better at setting up DCS and CTSS aka “privacy tones”. I feel like privacy tones could be useful for Cruise Moab because of the amount of people using the same frequencies.

If anyone wants to meet up on a weekend before Cruise Moab, I have a GMRS mobile setup in my Land Cruiser, and I have 5-6 handheld devices that we can practice with.

@CardinalFJ60 , not to be a jerk but I personally wouldn’t make time for zoom call. I’d rather just do it in person. @nakman idea about getting together with a few people to practice makes a lot of sense to me.
 

DaveInDenver

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I re-read that diatribe and think I need to clarify.
Ham is cool, but it requires some dedication and commitment to learn the basics.
I think it's fair to say all hams love helping new hams and old. I hope that's clear from the reams of digital ink we spent in threads.

What I don't think is time well spent is the same fire drill every year a month before Cruise Moab. Current hams should be the ones teaching the next generation.

I don't hold it against it anyone, it's a hobby with a long history and cliques. It's not fair to expect a member to embrace that who just wants to drive their Toyota offroad and not have to yell out the window.

This was a topic of discussion early on. How would herding cats work, keeping everyone legal and courteous? After all the Rising Sun hams are a drop in the bucket of hams around Denver and worldwide. We have to co-exist within that ecosphere.

Ham radio can be whatever you want it to be but a central tenet to the hobby is curosity and respect for other hams. But if it's not a core hobby and you're not aware of the larger picture how can you know what that means?

And to let you in on a secret, the ham community really is curious with how we use it. Field days, mobile operation, off-grid stations, APRS, etc. are topics all the time in QST and discussion on repeater rag chews. Non-4WD hams love having you show off and talk about your stations.
Since GMRS is our club’s preferred way to communicate, it makes sense to start there.
I view FRS and GMRS differently.

FRS is intended to be as close to fire-and-forget service as really can be done with a radio. There is almost nothing you can do, the antennas are fixed, the power is fixed, the frequencies are fixed. You need to put in batteries and push talk. The technical expectation is low and I'm going to do as much as possible to help an FRS user every time. They're not asking to be a radio pro, they really just wanna talk. Repeat customers are absolutely welcome to ask the same question over and over and over.

GMRS is a licensed service but there is no test of technical understanding. The FCC therefore restricts technical aspects in such a way that most GMRS license holders can't get themselves into serious quicksand. So as long as you do your best and give call signs it's not hard to regulate. That said the service does allow grandfathered multi-type radios (e.g. GMRS/commercial/public service) and repeaters and that can get complicated, so there's a non-zero chance for charliefoxtrotery. So to me GMRS is like CB was, where I was always happy to help tune antennas and crimp new connectors and what-not.

But that tech aspect aside, I do think it's reasonable to expect a GMRS licensee to operate with some level of improving skill and be a good example on the air.

That is where I think the club should have always focused. Perhaps there should have been a designated communication specialist, maybe a non-voting officer, something like that. It would be the person responsible for herding the cats. Have a periodic new member and refresher class to do just want is being asked here.

It was what I tried to do with Ham & Eggs unofficially (it wasn't just ham, we'd do CBs too, this was pre-GMRS/FRS). This is where you go over what you need, how to use the comms and do basic mounts and tune-ups. Getting everyone's antennas working again after a winter of mag-chloride was always the pre-CM chaos and the more technical people are always happy to help.
I enjoy the simplicity of GMRS but I would like to get better at setting up DCS and CTSS aka “privacy tones”. I feel like privacy tones could be useful for Cruise Moab because of the amount of people using the same frequencies.
This could to be a topic by itself, but PL/Tones/CTCSS/DCS should be discouraged. They are not private (if you turn off tones on the receiver you still hear the radios transmitting with it on) and do not increase channel bandwidth and capacity.

If you turn on a tone all that does is make it so you and your group don't hear others not using the same tone. But you're still interfering with each other when you transmit at the same time. You can't hear others on the channel to know that you need to move to another. Also in an emergency you won't hear people in the clear (no tones) or using other tones.

It's only my opinon, though.

The exception is repeaters. The use of tones is important to their operation but even there it's mostly only on the input. Most ham repeaters don't put a tone on their transmitted signal. It doesn't prevent hearing it so there's no point, although some do put the same on the output as the input for courtesy. Most radios made in the past 20 or so years have a function to listen and "hear" the tone on a signal, so if you put the same tone on the output as input you have in effect advertised your unlock tone.

The input tone is used with ham repeaters mainly to cut down interference, it's helpful with close in signals or noise. Most ham repeaters share tower space with commercial radio and cell phones and all sorts of things, it's a very tough RF environment so you can't rely on a clean signal to trigger, you need a squelch plus tone to make it more reliable. In any case it's exceedingly rare for a ham repeater not to publicly list their tones, it's frowed upon to make a ham repeater closed.

GMRS repeater owners tend to use tones on both input and output, which seems to be split (input different than output) to keep their use private. You have to contact the owner and ask for the tones.
 
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CardinalFJ60

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This is a great thread. Thanks for everyone contributing. @DaveInDenver , I think you’re totally right about wanting to learn HAM. It’s easy to ask for help, but it’s also about putting forth the effort to learn about it.

I really like the idea of meeting at a park to practice with the radios. I would benefit from getting together with some people and practicing some techniques on GMRS.

Ham is cool, but it requires some dedication and commitment to learn the basics.

Since GMRS is our club’s preferred way to communicate, it makes sense to start there.

I enjoy the simplicity of GMRS but I would like to get better at setting up DCS and CTSS aka “privacy tones”. I feel like privacy tones could be useful for Cruise Moab because of the amount of people using the same frequencies.

If anyone wants to meet up on a weekend before Cruise Moab, I have a GMRS mobile setup in my Land Cruiser, and I have 5-6 handheld devices that we can practice with.

@CardinalFJ60 , not to be a jerk but I personally wouldn’t make time for zoom call. I’d rather just do it in person. @nakman idea about getting together with a few people to practice makes a lot of sense to me.
No offense…let’s do both to allow more involvement
 

Pskhaat

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@DaveInDenver is the guy that has this all down.

That said, I do teach the Radio classes at the Overland Expos and would be delighted to repeat the same talk/courses. They are primarily GMRS but start with the topic quite generically and then get into GMRS specifics as well as repeaters and installations. Happy to convey the very same to anyone/everyone if of any value. Though Dave was always (and still would be) my go-to back in the day :-)
 
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timmbuck2

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That is awesome Scott! Let me know when you are back in town and we should set up a beers n radio afternoon.
 

Pskhaat

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That is awesome Scott! Let me know when you are back in town and we should set up a beers n radio afternoon.
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timmbuck2

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@DaveInDenver is the guy that has this all down.

That said, I do teach the Radio classes at the Overland Expos and would be delighted to repeat the same talk/courses. They are primarily GMRS but start with the topic quite generically and then get into GMRS specifics as well as repeaters and installations. Happy to convey the very same to anyone/everyone if of any value. Though Dave was always (and still would be) my go-to back in the day :-)
Hey Scott, let's get a class setup soon! I owe you a call anyway, let's chat.

Who all would be interested in a class like this? I would and my boys, too.
 

nakman

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For anyone who wants to do a get-together, how does your Wednesday night look next week, 6/18? I'm willing to set this up if anyone else wants to come out- Post up if so, I'll post up a location, time, etc.

This wouldn't be a class. This would be a more informal touch & feel & use multiple radios, see some setups, demo of communications, ask questions, etc. If there are any specifics someone wants to learn about, post that up ahead of time, we'll do our best to address it in person.
 

NotyourmomsWife

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For anyone who wants to do a get-together, how does your Wednesday night look next week, 6/18? I'm willing to set this up if anyone else wants to come out- Post up if so, I'll post up a location, time, etc.

This wouldn't be a class. This would be a more informal touch & feel & use multiple radios, see some setups, demo of communications, ask questions, etc. If there are any specifics someone wants to learn about, post that up ahead of time, we'll do our best to address it in person.
I’d be down!
 
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