• Jack-it Night: April 2024 RS Meeting Hey Guest: Wed. April 3rd is the next Rising Sun meeting, and you won't want to miss it. We're doing our annual offroad recovery equipment demonstration and trail skills training aka "Jack It Night." Meeting starts at 6:30 p.m. (early) Click here for all the details.

so who's ordering a Rivian?

AlpineAccess

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You're being facetious but honestly this is why the un-sexy hybrid makes a lot more sense for OHVs. The statement about needing to find service stations in the early days of automobiles and cross country travel is fine but it's not 1900 anymore and we have a very pervasive network of gasoline sources. Why not use them instead of hamstringing yourself relying on a network of fast chargers that might or might not serve your need?

And another wrinkle I might mention is a break down or recovery. Let's say you've planned to the mile but have an issue. What do you do then? Sorry, can't help with a roll over since I'd run out of juice. Getting a real charge to an out of the way place is a huddle I think that needs to be addressed before we start encouraging off highway use. Obviously a small generator is the solution, probably carried in by another truck. But that's not really a solo-friendly solution.

No intent for my comments to be taken as facetious - it was a legitimate question on the generators. I could totally see someone throw a hitch basket on an electric FJ40, plug it in, and take it on a trail (if it worked). The all electric pickups seem to be set-up well to have a drop-in generator in the bed that could plug in. I just don't know if generators have a high enough output to actually top up a vehicle like this at any meaningful speed, or more importantly, if the batteries on these can be charged while they are simultaneously discharging - regenerative braking aside, I imagine the charging ports are not set up to charge while driving due to the battery heat soaking?

100% agree on hybrids. I like hybrids more than pure electrics for my current use, but long term I expect electric tech to close the gap and make full electric a better fit for more people (maybe me too). I put 30k on a Chevy Volt (fleet vehicle at old job) and thought it was a fantastic vehicle. I've considered buying one several times, but just don't drive enough any more. Feels like Jeep/Toyota/etc. missed an opportunity to build a hybrid 4x4 that has long-range capability and big time torque and towing numbers but just because I want something doesn't mean there is a market for it.
 

DaveInDenver

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No intent for my comments to be taken as facetious - it was a legitimate question on the generators. I could totally see someone throw a hitch basket on an electric FJ40, plug it in, and take it on a trail (if it worked). The all electric pickups seem to be set-up well to have a drop-in generator in the bed that could plug in. I just don't know if generators have a high enough output to actually top up a vehicle like this at any meaningful speed, or more importantly, if the batteries on these can be charged while they are simultaneously discharging - regenerative braking aside, I imagine the charging ports are not set up to charge while driving due to the battery heat soaking?

100% agree on hybrids. I like hybrids more than pure electrics for my current use, but long term I expect electric tech to close the gap and make full electric a better fit for more people (maybe me too). I put 30k on a Chevy Volt (fleet vehicle at old job) and thought it was a fantastic vehicle. I've considered buying one several times, but just don't drive enough any more. Feels like Jeep/Toyota/etc. missed an opportunity to build a hybrid 4x4 that has long-range capability and big time torque and towing numbers but just because I want something doesn't mean there is a market for it.
Truth. I've for some time thought the boat was missed IMO on a diesel hybrid Tacoma (the concept is well proven with locomotives after all). Perhaps a 12 gallon fuel tank getting 450 miles with minimal range hit using low range and towing and a ~75 mile fail safe buffer with a Rotopax. Plus being a hybrid it could be a pretty decent camp generator by itself.

Just thinking about the generator. If you carry a little 1kW generator you could reasonably expect a mostly full charge in about a day or two. A 2kW generator running while you're driving would probably result in a net balance over the day. The problem is you'd need to carry a few gallons of gas, too. It's impractical to do fast charging (8kW generator!) and perhaps the main concept is people thinking solar will charge you. It's not possible to carry enough panels easily to actually charge enough to go more than a few miles a day.
 
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AlpineAccess

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@DaveInDenver @J1000 - what's the thoughts on a towable generator "overlanding" camp trailer with higher output generator? It hauls the generator/spare fuel and your camping gear, a rooftop tent, etc. You drive to the trailhead with it running/charging to keep things topped up. Park it, go wheel, come back and plug your car back into the trailer and camp.

Like we need more people running generators at campsites and out in the sticks, but I'd imagine a generator could be built from a totaled Prius motor or something that is super quiet.
 

DaveInDenver

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@DaveInDenver @J1000 - what's the thoughts on a towable generator "overlanding" camp trailer with higher output generator? It hauls the generator/spare fuel and your camping gear, a rooftop tent, etc. You drive to the trailhead with it running/charging to keep things topped up. Park it, go wheel, come back and plug your car back into the trailer and camp.

Like we need more people running generators at campsites and out in the sticks, but I'd imagine a generator could be built from a totaled Prius motor or something that is super quiet.
Seems like a solution looking for a problem? What advantage is there to running a combustion engine with additional conversion loss over just using it as the prime mover?
 

gungriffin

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I believe that for the most part the answer everyone is seeking is already here... Just put in a bigger battery pack and maximize the efficiency of all of the components. The new Merceded EQS has a 107 kwh battery pack, but might get 450+ miles to a charge. As batteries get less expensive, this will make even more sense. I bet we will see 600+ miles to a charge in the next ~5 years on some vehicles.
 

satchel

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Interesting to see what people do to try and squeeze out some extra juice. I've seen others do similar to this and get about 40 miles per day or so.

1619536454001.png


 

gungriffin

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Interesting to see what people do to try and squeeze out some extra juice. I've seen others do similar to this and get about 40 miles per day or so.

View attachment 94589


I saw this a few weeks ago when it popped up in my YouTube feed. This is quite the cool option. I was surprised at how quickly he is able to set it up.
 

J1000

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@AlpineAccess back when I owned a Leaf there was talk of people making trailers or generator-on-a-hitch-rack stuff but I never followed up. You have to get the most expensive square wave generators or the car won't even try to charge and also you need 3kw or more otherwise wasting your time.

Personally, I'm thinking about a solar array and wind generator combo. Also river water generator is really intriguing I've been trying to think of something small and lightweight that could be easily set up in most rivers.

There is a guy on youtube who bought the cheapest Leaf he could find and out solar on it in a few different iterations long story short he's driven 8000 miles without plugging it in ever.

 

DouglasVB

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The statement about needing to find service stations in the early days of automobiles and cross country travel is fine but it's not 1900 anymore and we have a very pervasive network of gasoline sources. Why not use them instead of hamstringing yourself relying on a network of fast chargers that might or might not serve your need?

If my uncle didn't want to hamstring himself, I guess he should have ridden a horse instead. And that was in the 1950s. Pretty wild that even then it was still difficult to find supplies if you didn't stick to a few major roads heading west.

Someone has to be the early adopter. Just like Horatio Nelson Jackson and Sewall K. Crocker being the first people across the USA in a car in 1903. Or the 1919 Transcontinental Motor Convoy.

It's all so exciting to see a new technology reach critical mass and take off. This reminds me of the stories my great grandma told me when I was young of the first time she saw an airplane and the stories she heard from her grandma when she was a kid about the telegraph. Or of many of my family members talking about the space race.

With all the issues we're discussing over fully electric 4x4s... what solutions could we be working on? Like let's say Rising Sun decided to become a startup working in this general area. What problem(s) could we solve to make this more of a reality? I think the problems we're talking about relate to:

  • Range and ability to recharge on the trail or at the trailhead
  • Ability to stuff bigger tires under an electric truck
  • Conversion of existing 4x4s to electric
  • Protection of batteries in 4x4ing accidents (I'm adding that one -- when some of the battery techs have a problem, it's spectacular in a bad way)
  • The smug factor from 4x4 electric drivers (see the "Smug Alert!" South Park episode for the reference😂)
  • Modifications and vehicle outfitting

Am I forgetting any major issues?

So then what would the solutions be to those problems? How big is the expected market (or how big could the market be)?
 

satchel

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There has been talk for a few years of companies building small gasoline generators, typically rotary engines, to power electric cars. I've never been a huge fan of hybrids for the fact that you are now having to maintain an electric and petrol motor, though I understand the benefits, but I do feel like there would be a market for a company like Tesla to have smaller batteries for maybe 80-100 miles of range, and if you want more range you pull out your rotary engine that will run at 7k rpm and stuff it in the compartment in back.

That way you only have the one rotary engine that plugs into all of your Tesla cars when you need it, and would drive brand loyalty since it is plug and play across the brand.


There's also the talk of building in inductive charging into the highways themselves.
 

3rdGen4R

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If my uncle didn't want to hamstring himself, I guess he should have ridden a horse instead. And that was in the 1950s. Pretty wild that even then it was still difficult to find supplies if you didn't stick to a few major roads heading west.

Someone has to be the early adopter. Just like Horatio Nelson Jackson and Sewall K. Crocker being the first people across the USA in a car in 1903. Or the 1919 Transcontinental Motor Convoy.

It's all so exciting to see a new technology reach critical mass and take off. This reminds me of the stories my great grandma told me when I was young of the first time she saw an airplane and the stories she heard from her grandma when she was a kid about the telegraph. Or of many of my family members talking about the space race.

With all the issues we're discussing over fully electric 4x4s... what solutions could we be working on? Like let's say Rising Sun decided to become a startup working in this general area. What problem(s) could we solve to make this more of a reality? I think the problems we're talking about relate to:

  • Range and ability to recharge on the trail or at the trailhead
  • Ability to stuff bigger tires under an electric truck
  • Conversion of existing 4x4s to electric
  • Protection of batteries in 4x4ing accidents (I'm adding that one -- when some of the battery techs have a problem, it's spectacular in a bad way)
  • The smug factor from 4x4 electric drivers (see the "Smug Alert!" South Park episode for the reference😂)
  • Modifications and vehicle outfitting

Am I forgetting any major issues?

So then what would the solutions be to those problems? How big is the expected market (or how big could the market be)?
Yeah... the idea you will be allowed to modify the vehicles besides tire size is a huge assumption. People that are buying these EV's without actually knowing if they can work on them or not shows how consumers really aren't making good decisions. Will the rivian actually let third parties work on there vehicles? Because Tesla doesn't allow that.
 

AlpineAccess

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Yeah... the idea you will be allowed to modify the vehicles besides tire size is a huge assumption. People that are buying these EV's without actually knowing if they can work on them or not shows how consumers really aren't making good decisions. Will the rivian actually let third parties work on there vehicles? Because Tesla doesn't allow that.

I just made this thinking about buying an EV now

1619572114113.png
 

mcgaskins

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mcgaskins

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Lots more details about dimensions and capacities on the R1T (the R1S will coming later) have just been released. Check out all that space in the front trunk/frunk that also has a 12v power outlet. Word has it some people who love ARB fridges pushed really hard to get 12v in the frunk 😉

 

DaveInDenver

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Word has it some people who love ARB fridges pushed really hard to get 12v in the frunk 😉
I have my suspicion as to at least one person who made his or her opinion heard to Rivian...

In this month's QST (the ARRL magazine) there's an article about an electric grid rover (a Chevy Volt IIRC). That's someone who travels around Maidenhead grid squares to make contacts for people. The ARRL gives an award for most grids activated.

index.png

Anyway running a radio consumes a significant amount of power, not unlike a fridge. He brings along dedicated batteries to run his station because he makes the point that the extra weight (he uses iron phosphate, which are lighter than lead-acid although still heavier than lithium types) has less impact to the range than running them directly from the vehicle.

I wonder if there's engineering truth to that. My thinking is along the lines that you wouldn't let your Cruiser idle to run a fridge so using the "fuel" battery pack would be like that. Guess this particular use case works with ICE because the fuel is higher density and overall efficiency is so low that tacking on a little bit extra to recharge a fridge battery each day's driving is in the noise. All EV energy is stored, although a case for carrying a solar panel to run the fridge in camp would be even stronger with a Rivian.
 
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Jenny Cruiser

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Ford F150 Lightning looks interesting - especially the option of being able to plug it into your home for power in the case of an outage. Totally crazy bonnet/boot when it's open.
 

J1000

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@DaveInDenver yeah that's exactly right, weight from auxillary batteries is just like carrying a couple passengers. The friction increase is negligible and with gentle acceleration it won't affect range much. When I owned a LEAF it would generally do 4.5 to 6.5 miles/kwh so if the radio equipment is pulling 500-1000 watts that can definitely impact your range.

Also like you say the lower efficiency of a gas engine means that the additional load of electrical draw or AC or anything else just doesn't impact range because 60-70 or more of the energy is just being wasted anyway.

With an EV you're in the high 90% range efficiency so if you want to turn on the heater or push through a headwind or anything else that's going to make a much bigger impact on your range. 24kwh of battery is about 3 gallons of gasoline in energy, driving an EV is like being on 1/4 tank the entire time.
 

DaveInDenver

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24kwh of battery is about 3 gallons of gasoline in energy,
I may be the only one who wondered but Jimmy I believe means in terms of actual converted energy here. Technically one gallon of gasoline contains round about 120,000 BTU or 35 kW-hr of stored energy. So 3 gallons would contain 105 kW-hr. But the inefficiency of converting that to movement would mean he assumed ~22% efficiency I surmise.

It's not an straight up 1:1 comparison since speed is a factor and I only know marketing and not real world numbers for EVs. But I get about 350 miles from 665 kW-hr (19 gallons) in my truck (at least if I don't hammer down). That makes consumption about 1,900 W-hr/mile. A Tesla X is rated for 345 W-hr/mile. So an assumption of 20% vs 100% (normalizing to Tesla) is fair. That means 3 gallons in my truck is 21 kW-hr equivalent.

The two cars aren't quite in the same class though. A lifted 4WD pickup with a bunch of farkle compared to a stock CUV. Perhaps using our Forester is a more fair comparison. We get pretty easily about 450 Interstate miles from 15 gallons (525 kW-hr) in that. That's 1,167 W-hr/mile or equivalent to 29.5% efficiency if a Tesla X is the normalization. In our Forester 3 gallons is therefore 31 kW-hr equivalent.
 

mcgaskins

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I may be the only one who wondered but Jimmy I believe means in terms of actual converted energy here. Technically one gallon of gasoline contains round about 120,000 BTU or 35 kW-hr of stored energy. So 3 gallons would contain 105 kW-hr. But the inefficiency of converting that to movement would mean he assumed ~22% efficiency I surmise.

It's not an straight up 1:1 comparison since speed is a factor and I only know marketing and not real world numbers for EVs. But I get about 350 miles from 665 kW-hr (19 gallons) in my truck (at least if I don't hammer down). That makes consumption about 1,900 W-hr/mile. A Tesla X is rated for 345 W-hr/mile. So an assumption of 20% vs 100% (normalizing to Tesla) is fair. That means 3 gallons in my truck is 21 kW-hr equivalent.

The two cars aren't quite in the same class though. A lifted 4WD pickup with a bunch of farkle compared to a stock CUV. Perhaps using our Forester is a more fair comparison. We get pretty easily about 450 Interstate miles from 15 gallons (525 kW-hr) in that. That's 1,167 W-hr/mile or equivalent to 29.5% efficiency if a Tesla X is the normalization. In our Forester 3 gallons is therefore 31 kW-hr equivalent.

The math gets complicated quickly, so that's one of the reasons I like to look at the MPGe or miles per gallon equivalent. It makes it easier to digest for us normal people :) I think your math checks out pretty close when you look at the fueleconomy.gov ratings for the Model X:


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