Multiprocess welding machines. What to buy?

[Corbet]

My son Bridger has chosen welding as his career path. He is a sophomore in High School currently. DHS has a good welding program and he is in his 2nd year with the potential to graduate with all is basic certificates.

I currently own a Millermatic 211 MIG machine. Thinking about investing into a multiprocess machine so that he has the ability to practice at home with Stick/TIG/MIG.

The Miller Multimatic 235 looks appealing to me but I don't know anything about them. https://www.millerwelds.com/equipme...ual-cylinder-running-gear-tig-kit-240v-951847

An ESAB Rebel also comes to mind. Both these with all the "stuff" is going to be near $5K.

Then you go on amazon and a cheap assumed POS is like $500 https://www.amazon.com/YESWELDER-Digital-MIG-205DS-Multiprocess-Aluminum/dp/B08CBCB4M5/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=2N3RXOSE61F2X&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.GHl5ACBr9ZghDMg1IJn6oLWPtqRn8rXrlRpkEhMWdA9fyZWZe8qjgz31CSO_Xm3YAvqNUgqkzLqCf8U-LRwmdwR4j1HSODJBf8t7enk1qeWCDV6EZSA1qRNFMrrr_q6OHaLgTa07kuBbi3vT8x4myyEKfumQI1TVG_P6ZEriuGAKcvPvDZhYxQzBs47ugX5ELqF5mtemGlkEzj_LCJa2daRCa2HD-v4LEw1SrA0jZWJESLyGo5snZBpRvDa6xh2Ayi33LCAupHs_aWpELozrF9LIH-j_LXvzeMfwkqUxVo0.bmcSmgR1s4UIfC6X03rxOAyyg7q1doxAblD0-0zDKBw&dib_tag=se&keywords=multi+process+welding+machine&qid=1765474176&sprefix=multi+process+welding+machine,aps,185&sr=8-3-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

Or I could pick up some old basic stick machine. Local pawn shop has a Lincoln for $180. I didn't look close at it but we all know the grave stone looking things. Not much to them. Then buy at a dedicated TIG in a year when he gets to that. The single machine is a space saver.

Anyway I've got 220 in the shop. Need some advice from anyone who have used similar. And I know nothing about TIG other than I'd like to learn it also.

 

[RayRay27]

That's great to hear that your son is learning how to weld. I am in a job where we can't hire or sometimes find enough good welders. It's sort of a fading art form.

Can't go wrong with either Lincoln or Miller welders. Both are top tier. You want to go with at least a 220v machine if you plan on welding on anything that is somewhat thick. Generally gonna pay more for 220v welders but you get what you pay for is my philosophy. Harbor Freight has a decent 220 multi-process welder. I would consider purchasing from them just because they are local and can return easily or replace if need be. If welding isn't your main profession and you only plan on using it sparingly for side projects, me personally would go with something cheaper then a Lincoln or Miller, unless your heart is set on it.

With MIG (GMAW), and stick (SMAW) shielding gas is not required unlike tig welding (GTAW). For tig your gonna need to use an inert gas like argon as a shielding gas. You'll have to buy an argon tank so that's something to think about when purchasing a multi-process welder unless you already have one for your MIG welder but I am assuming that you a wire that has a shielding gas built into it like fluxed core. TIG welding is an art form for sure. I was lucky enough, back in the early 2000's I was working as a contractor at Coors and they had their own welding school and I worked with the welding instructor so in the afternoons I got to practice some TIG. Welding flat was pretty easy but when I had to weld in the up-hill position, I really struggled to walk the puddle without burying the rod or tungsten tip into the weld itself.

I think if you purchase a cheap/used stick welder for your son and yourself to practice on for a year or so and as he/you progresses on to other welding methods you can upgrade to a multi-process machine.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I have a Miller 215 multi process machine. It's the smaller sibling to the 235, the main differences being it can only take an 8" spool compared to a 12" and the duty cycle is lower on the 215, 170A at 25% vs 170A at 60%. The two machines can do the same welds on 220V but if you're in a pro shop the 235 will be less likely to hit it's thermal limit. I've never had my 215 shut down doing normal stuff like bumper, swing out, etc.

I have no complaints but I'd suggest not doing this way if you ever think you'll explore TIG. Two reasons mainly. First is these class machine can only do DC on all processes. With MIG and stick on steel this isn't a major limitation normally but on TIG and aluminum this is challenging. Not impossible but AC is quite a bit easier and cleaner on aluminum.

The other reason is these machines don't have a high frequency arc start. They strike an arc by contact, meaning you touch the electrode to the work and pull off to start it, like you're stick welding. It's doable but for a beginner or if you don't TIG a lot you end up sticking the electrode in the puddle. This is frustrating and ends up with you constantly pulling it to clean and resharpen.

On MIG the 215 is going to be very similar to your 211. Well, more like the 211 PRO specifically because of the LCD display instead of dials, but the inverter and wire drive are essentially the same thing. The 235 will be too, although it will have a higher duty cycle.

The reason I picked the 215 was that it can run on 120V while the 235 is 220V only. I figured this machine might be the one I took to a buddy's house or whatever. It's never happened. But it could. In theory.

If you're really wanting a multi process I'd go with the 220 (confusingly, the Multimatic 220 does run on 220V) model since it does both HF start and AC.

Personally, though, I ended up just getting a TIG machine. The Lincoln Square Wave TIG 200. Once you get a dedicated TIG machine you'll find the limitations of the 215/220/235. Control over frequency, pulse and balance, particularly if you do aluminum, is nice. This is still a fairly light duty machine but it takes the big dog pro accessories, the torch and foot pedal are the same as their production machines. The pedal Miller included with the 215 seem like a toy. The Lincoln K870 pedal is $1k if you buy it alone.

The reason I did not consider the 220 is that the 215 plus Square Wave were close to the same price and IMO a better one-two option. I cannot do AC MIG, which would be a potential nice thing if you want to MIG aluminum.

I like both my machines. The Square Wave's main fault is the gas cool period is not controllable. It runs for a fixed length that you'd need for max heat and it's too long 95% of the time. If you do a lot of welding you will waste a lot of gas.

I would not hesitate to get an ESAB, it's a pro machine supplier found more in Europe. Straying from those main ones Forney is local in Ft Collins, so sure, Eastwood machines are well regarded. Hobart is Miller, which you probably know. For a quality entry TIG a lot of people like Everlast and from what I've seen they're fine. It kind of comes down to parts and accessory availability. I'm not sure what you have down there but here in GJ we have Rocky Mt Air Solutions and Airgas stores, so I'm never more than 10 minutes from getting tips or rollers or whatever for either machine.

 

[Corbet]

@DaveInDenver thanks for some explanation on the TIG AC/DC. I was wondering about that. The Miller 235 does not have AC but the 220 does. I noticed that when I was looking at them online.

@RayRay27 my current Millermatic has shielding gas. I don't run flux core. And its been running on 220 for a long time now. Building my rear bumper on 120 would have sucked. I've got a couple 10lb Powertanks I don't ready use anymore for trail air. I could potentially put one into shielding gas duties. But its not like renting a tank is expensive.

 

[DaveInDenver]

@Corbet, re-reading my post it's not really clear but I'm suggesting that unless you really step up to a pro machine I'd just keep your 211 and get a dedicated TIG. To me the 220 and 235 really wouldn't give me enough justification on MIG/stick and the TIG is a compromise solution, even on the 220.

The machines they have in the welding program are probably Lincoln Precision TIG, which will blow away even the Square Wave I have (mainly on arc stability but in reliability long term for sure, too). Bridger will find the limits quick. If there's something critical made, roll cages, aircraft, nuke reactor cooling, Gamiviti racks, you name it, the metal was probably glued with a Precision TIG.

 

[Corbet]

Dave, I translated your original message . He has not gotten to TIG yet in the HighSchool program so I might just go get that old Lincoln stick machine for now then start shopping for a TIG. My current Millermatic 211 has done everything I need it to as a MIG machine.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Dave, I translated your original message . He has not gotten to TIG yet in the HighSchool program so I might just go get that old Lincoln stick machine for now then start shopping for a TIG. My current Millermatic 211 has done everything I need it to as a MIG machine.

You may not realize but you can TIG with your stick welder, scratch starting an arc is a skill that's not bad for a pro welder to have in his or her tool box. Some are set up to take a pedal and will lift start but even if not you have usually use a hand current control, which is a little dial on the back of the torch.

Even a tombstone can technically TIG and they can be pretty decent power sources if you add an external HF/ TIG start box. Having a HF start is a crutch that lets you get lazy or helps old farts with bad eyes and coordination. Present company excluded, of course. A true TIG machine just gives you better fine control and having AC to balance cleaning/heat for aluminum helps a lot controlling oxidation.

 

[HoneyBadger]

It may be a good idea to trade in your 211 and get a 215 multimatic just for doing MIG and Stick welding. Then, when he gets more advanced, you can look into getting a dedicated TIG. I definitely agree that a dedicated TIG is the way to go.
But the 215 is fantastic for MIG, Stick, and Aluminum Spool Guns. Our 215 in the shop was our main work horse for years.
I'm betting that if you trade up to the 215 multimatic, you will definitely not regret having that as your main welder in your garage.

 

[DaveInDenver]

@HoneyBadger, why would you suggest trading in a 211 for a 215 if you'd be thinking of getting a dedicated TIG in the future?

I'm not really disagreeing since you're the pro using them daily, just that the two are so close in DC MIG/stick performance and I wonder if a used 211 is going to buy down that much on any new machine vs just stashing away the cash towards a new TIG.

Right now Miller is giving $800 back on the old style dial 211 making it's final price not much more than $1k, which is a steal and I figure will make trade/selling one kind of hard.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Right on, totally understand. And at this point, if Corbet already has a 211, is happy with it's performance, and just wants to get a cheap stick machine, I don't have any REAL argument against that. Other than maybe not learning stick on a really old machine and instead learning on a newer machine that's most likely going to be closer to something his son will encounter in the future wherever he may end up working.
It's just that in my opinion, after having used both 211's and 215's extensively, the 215 is a better MIG welder.
It's got the 220v capability. Which allows you to have far better welds, more easily, on thicker steel.
It has better duty cycle. So you can do those longer and heavier welds for a longer amount of time.
And it's multi process. So if you want to learn how to stick weld, but you also need a MIG for most everything you do, then you only need one machine.
Even though the 215 can technically do TIG, I feel that if you really want to be able to fully learn TIG, a dedicated TIG setup is a much better idea because you can have so many more options and be able to really fine tune it.

I guess basically what I'm saying is that I wouldn't want to TIG with a 215 unless absolutely necessary. And that's only because I feel it's not as fine tunable. I'm sure it works great for some TIG applications, but not all.
So I just feel that the best combo of capabilities with the best results for all three processes would be a 215, for MIG and Stick, then some sort of a dedicated TIG.

Our dedicated TIG is a Thermal Arc 185 ACDC. It works great for all TIG applications. It's only draw back is it's duty cycle. But we don't TIG all that much. If we were manufacturing on a consistent basis with TIG, I'd invest in a larger water cooled TIG.

Ultimately I think my main point is that if it were me learning for the first time, knowing what I know now, I'd want more modern machines to get used to before entering the work force. So, just take that for what it's worth. I've interviewed younger guys, fresh out of trade school, who looked at our newer equipment and had no idea what it was.
But, for a young man learning this stuff for the first time, I guess ultimately it's most important to understand the concepts of all three processes and getting as familiar as possible with them all. Specific machine types and capabilities can be learned after the fact.

 

[arthog]

The one main feature that I feel is important on a TIG welder is adjustable post flow. I use a third + more argon if I use my non-adjustable post flow welder than the one that is adjustable. Argon aint cheep thesse days. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Corbet]

I spent a little time at the local Miller dealer today. They told me that the high school bought Multimatic 220 machines for the shop. I’ve got an email into his teacher to confirm what he is using for stick. They could certainly have some old tombstones laying around. I’d ask Bridger but I’m trying to keep this covert for now.

I also reached out to my client that Bridger will more than likely intern with this summer. He uses Millermatic 211’s in the shop and a big Trailblazer on the job site. This is for decorative steel in high end home construction. He did say he’s looking at the Multimatic 255 for the shop after the new year.

I talked a little to the Miller dealer about a dedicated TIG machine and they quoted me like $12K. That’s not in the cards right now. But I think I can stomach 5 after the new year.

 

[DaveInDenver]

What the heck are they quoting you @Corbet? That's absurd.

If you're dedicated to Miller why not a Syncrowave 212? That's a good 200A class machine, the blue equivalent approximately to my Square Wave 200. Does all the TIG stuff you'd ever need (HF start, AC with balance, pulse and frequency control) for roughly $3K for an air cooled. You can even update it later to water cooled if you really want to push it. Should be fine up to maybe 1/4" single pass doing TIG.

The 220 is a good choice, makes sense for a school. It'll pretty much do everything, including full feature TIG.

The 255 is a big dog 3 phase 350 amp/800 ipm MIG. That'll do, yeah, that'll do. You can do repairs to the blade of that new D9 you got your eye on.

 

[Corbet]

I think it was the Dynasty 300. I’m not dedicated to Miller. But it’s the only in town dealer I have. And even so I bought my 211 online.

Anyone with an opinion on the ESAB machines? The Rebel 205 appears to be pretty comparable for $3000 or $5000 with the liquid cooling upgrade.

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[DaveInDenver]

Yeah, geez, the Dynasty is the mainline professional TIG. Miller's version of the Precision TIG. If you got the money, sure top end machine, but it's serious overkill for a home hobbyist.

Even that, he quoted the 300, which would need 3 phase to really make it worth it over a 200. I'm not even sure you can pull the full power on single phase until you get to 480V.

Nothing like knowing your customer 'cause I'm sure you need 60% duty cycle with the option for a super exotic sine pulsed soft square at 250 amps. You could be like the fab shop at Boeing making titanium aerospace parts in your spare time.

 

[Corbet]

Yah, I obviously don’t need that. While she kind of knew the product well I don’t think she had a great understand of the application side. I just asked her what a dedicated TIG machine would run. She quoted a different one as well that was much less. But after being blown out of the water with 12K she had kind of lost my interest.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Yah, I obviously don’t need that. While she kind of knew the product well I don’t think she had a great understand of the application side. I just asked her what a dedicated TIG machine would run. She quoted a different one as well that was much less. But after being blown out of the water with 12K she had kind of lost my interest.

For your use the dedicated GTAW machines I'd be comparing new.

Lincoln Square Wave 205
Miller Syncrowave 212
ESAB Rogue ET 201
HTP Invertig 221
Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT

Honestly, the choice in my mind would be local support vs value. I stuck with Lincoln and Miller for support but you get more if you don't.

The Everlast wins on value, it's more machine for the money. It would be tough for me, I'd maybe still get the Lincoln. Fancy feature-laden Jeep or boring Toyota? You know the drill.

If you have Syncrowave kind of money to spend from Everlast for the same you can get a PowerTIG 400EXT, which is nearly Dynasty level features at 1/4th the cost.

The rub is sales and support. There's Napotnik up in Silt that I think sells them. There's a couple of dealers in Denver. Depends on what's important to you, dealing with warranty issues, how long you can afford to be down waiting for parts, that sort of thing.

It's kind of the same thing with ESAB. General Air sells them, which is great if you're in Denver. Airgas is supposed to be a dealer but I can't say if I've seen them in the GJ branch.

Something to keep in mind is 200A or so is your practical limit at home on a dryer/range sort of circuit. A machine 300A or more is going to want 50A and better suited for 480V or 3φ 208V if you need that sort of power routinely. Consider it a system as you move up in capability.

I'm not saying don't get a bigger machine but in a home shop you're working out a budget look for features (complex wave forms, wider frequency range, etc) more than power. It's nice to have 4 different AC waveforms, a 0 to 100% balance, complete control over pulse rate but it's unlikely you need that depth of control unless you're doing a range of exotic materials. If you start branching out with all kinds of different materials and alloys you're going to have to keep a bunch of different filler rods and electrodes, maybe a couple of shielding gases, too.

Like Terry and I both said, the lack of post flow control on the Square Wave 200 I have is a serious buzz kill. For tinkering around it's not a show stopper but if you use it for production you probably double your usage and argon (and helium or mix) sure ain't cheap. I need to make clear Lincoln fixed this oversight on the current SW 205, which makes it considerably more competitive in the market niche.

 

[Corbet]

I don’t need a production level machine. Just something that covers the bases while he is in High School going through the basic levels of learning. Just need to decide if I want another cart taking up what little space I have in the garage. I was eyeballing that Syncrowave 212 with the water cooling last night.

If he then takes it to the next level, likely WyoTech up in Laramie, they will supply all the fancy equipment. And upon graduation I can buy him a big gas driven Trailblazer to drop on a work truck as his graduation gift.

Guy on MUD suggested this machine. https://usaweld.com/collections/something-great-is-coming-1/products/revolution-2501

I’ve never heard of it but looks to be feature rich. But right now I’m leaning towards a blue box simply based on prior experience and probably overly high expectations of perceived quality.

And for the record I’ve never seen an ESAB machine in the Farmingtion Airgas location either. I don’t frequent it but have done tank fills there on occasion.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Water cooling is nice. A trade off on complexity vs use. Even in production water cooled isn't universal over using a bigger air cooled torch.

I've never had my 17 size torch get too hot to use at home but I did have them a few times in welding school. That was doing 5G/6G on 6" sch 80 pipe, so 5 or so passes on 11mm walls. That was with 18 size cooled torches, which are like welding with a cut down stickball bat tethered with a jumper cable over your shoulder. Adding the coolant feed and return tube makes the whole thing less fun to hold. Unless you have gorilla hands you might not be able to cradle a water cooled torch like a pencil for fine work, you hold it more like a MIG torch so you don't stabilize yourself with the edge of your hand.

We also had a couple of coolant leaks at the school shop. Easy to fix if you have Lincoln donating a cabinet-full of $600 torches to use.

Where water cooling becomes important is continuously welding no matter the size. If you're the welder and have a helper doing all the running and cutting for you then you might need it. If you have to stop occasionally to re-jig, trim or grind it's not as big a deal.

Honestly, I burn myself more on account of the work rather than the torch getting hot.

Forgot to mention, you'll end up with a TIG finger anyway.

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[DaveInDenver]

BTW, never seen an HTP up close. They look real nice on paper. I have this (likely irrational) fear of it being the Fiat of welders...