Meeting Report - Jack-It Night 2022 (AKA the Annual Pre-Cruise Moab Recovery and Trail Skill Hands-On Meeting)

PhillyB77

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WOW! Amazing meeting. I took notes and won a free trail guide! Very good stuff, thanks to all who led the small group classes and to our firefighters who educated in that respect. Super informative, I know I was engaged the entire time. Very well done, thanks again.
 

thatpilotguy

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Great fun tonight BUT if your vehicle was downwind of the fire extinguisher demo, clean it ASAP. My 200 took the brunt of it and is covered in a light residue from the resultant cloud. The dry chemical used in those ABC extinguishers is highly corrosive… especially on aluminum and electrical connections. I’m pretty concerned and will be giving it a thorough wash first thing in the morning.
 

Inukshuk

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Inukshuk

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Great turnout and the amazing Envision Fabrication facility was a great meeting spot. Hope they let us use it again!

In addition to the great information, we were treated to possibly the worlds only EV 80, a left hand drive civillian Mega Cruiser, a JDM HiAce van. and the usual assortment of amazing Totota 4x4's.

Next up: Cruise Moab!

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Hulk

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I have a good video of the Element demo. It burned for a solid 75 seconds. Any tips on how to share it? 175MB results in a "this file is too large for the server to process" message. I've got it on my iCloud till 7May. Perhaps those interested can pull it down... https://share.icloud.com/photos/076cfYITkwxLvWWrjj4-WvPUw
I uploaded it to YouTube. It's "unlisted" which means it won't show up in searches.

 

Inukshuk

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Great fun tonight BUT if your vehicle was downwind of the fire extinguisher demo, clean it ASAP. My 200 took the brunt of it and is covered in a light residue from the resultant cloud. The dry chemical used in those ABC extinguishers is highly corrosive… especially on aluminum and electrical connections. I’m pretty concerned and will be giving it a thorough wash first thing in the morning.
Sorry to hear. I just read up on them and agree with what you said. Some ABC extinguishers use the more corrosive diammonium phosphate. That forms phosphoric acid when wetted. The extinguishers last night were apparently sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) but ABC rated, so I'm still a bit confused. They were plainly white powder, not yellow. Hopefully the drive home blew most of the dust off dry and your wash took care of the rest.

Many fire extinguishers release a fine powder. The most common is the multipurpose dry chemical type, which is used for Class A, B, and C fires. These contain monoammonium phosphate, which comes out as a yellow powder. The yellow color helps to distinguish it from other non-multipurpose extinguishers. Ordinary dry chemical extinguishers are used for Class B and C fires only. They often contain sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), which comes out as a white powder. https://www.poison.org/articles/fire-extinguisher-safety-184

Time to buy more elements...
 
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AimCOTaco

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^^^ Agreed, the breeze took that flow in the least ideal direction last night. I understand the concern and I'm optimistic that because everything was dry that most of the powder simply blew off. I also expect that the vast majority of the surfaces are not unprotected metals but rather polymers that won't bat an eye. I think a lot of the genuine issues with ABC agent corrosion probably comes after an actual fire where there was high temperatures/ water/ and a lot of ABC present all at once.

I definitly think ABC clean up certainly warrants further discussion 'round here.
 
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thatpilotguy

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Sorry to hear. I just read up on them and agree with what you said. What I read is that is forms phosphoric acid when wetted. Hopefully the drive home blew most of the dust off dry and you wash takes care of the rest.
It did not blow off. I had no choice but to use water. I pressure washed it and put through a car wash.

On the bright side, the chemical wasn’t directly sprayed on my vehicle so it wasn’t a large, caked on amount. The concerning part is that fine mist got in every crevice and opening. My concern is for what I can’t see or reach.

Regardless, I will only be carrying Halon/Halotron in my vehicle. That dry chemical crap has no business being used near any vehicle or machinery.
 

AimCOTaco

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I want to thank Envision fabrication, @Inukshuk and everyone who attended, participated, and presented last night.

I really enjoyed the evening and all the fresh and topical discussions that I was a part of. I also got to drive that Mega, so cool!!

Also reeling from all your wild rides these days; Hiace, EV-80, Stretched-80 (aka Tetanus), Mega Cruiser, it's all just so cool!!
 

J1000

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One of the benefits of the Element fire extinguisher that was demo'd is that the corrosive dust is not part of the equation. That's a huge reason why these took off in the sportscar/racing world. Cleaning up a car after it's been hit by a normal extinguisher is no easy job. Really cool to see the Element demonstration and sign off by @Camo80 and @FireMike, I have one in each of my vehicles but I wasn't 100% confident in them so it's great to see the professionals approve.
 

FireMike

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Lyons, Co
It did not blow off. I had no choice but to use water. I pressure washed it and put through a car wash.

On the bright side, the chemical wasn’t directly sprayed on my vehicle so it wasn’t a large, caked on amount. The concerning part is that fine mist got in every crevice and opening. My concern is for what I can’t see or reach.

Regardless, I will only be carrying Halon/Halotron in my vehicle. That dry chemical crap has no business being used near any vehicle or machinery.
I am sorry that your truck was down wind and got hit with fallout. As for Halon only, and ABC being crap, My ask is for you to possibly look into all scenarios of vehicle fires and what is appropriate for them. In my 25 years of service and many types of vehicle fires, I can assure you that Halon ISN'T the go to for a reason, it's great for electrical. The hope is that we never need to use it, And if we do, the residue will be the least of our worries !!! IMHO
 

thatpilotguy

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One of the benefits of the Element fire extinguisher that was demo'd is that the corrosive dust is not part of the equation. That's a huge reason why these took off in the sportscar/racing world. Cleaning up a car after it's been hit by a normal extinguisher is no easy job. Really cool to see the Element demonstration and sign off by @Camo80 and @FireMike, I have one in each of my vehicles but I wasn't 100% confident in them so it's great to see the
I am sorry that your truck was down wind and got hit with fallout. As for Halon only, and ABC being crap, My ask is for you to possibly look into all scenarios of vehicle fires and what is appropriate for them. In my 25 years of service and many types of vehicle fires, I can assure you that Halon ISN'T the go to for a reason, it's great for electrical. The hope is that we never need to use it, And if we do, the residue will be the least of our worries !!! IMHO
I appreciate that. Sometimes stuff just happens… it’s nobody’s fault.
As far as Halon… it’s the go to in aviation and in auto racing. Halon in highly rated on flammable liquid fires, too, is it not?
I’m not stating that ABC is crap, per se… it has it’s uses and is cost effective, just that there are better options for vehicles and machinery.
 
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Corbet

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I‘ve had to use my Halotron on an electrical fire. It knocked it down fine but the wire grounding out was still live the whole time so it kept flaring back up. I had to break the circuit to get the fire out. That required a pair of leather gloves and some force applied.
 

Inukshuk

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@ShedHead - Drake - you asked me about the shear strength of a 5/8" grade 8 bolt in pounds when used as a hitch pin. Its a rabbit hole for sure. Much out there on the interweb.

We don't need an engineer here. The idea is to have a general bias towards using equipment for which engineers and technical people have assigned ratings, and then knowing that the loads we are putting on that equipment has a "safety factor". Current thought is to stay conservatively (and this is subjective and empirical figure that may change as knowledge changes) at a 2:1 safety factor in a horizontal pull. Overhead lifting may use a 5 or 6 to 1 safety factor. Climbers may use a 10:1 safety factor. Will you be fine with a off the shelf hitch pin? Probably, but the grade is unknown so at least make sure it is a reputable brand. But for a couple dollars at the hardware store, why not use a Grade 8 bolt?

Now onto shear strength:

"unlike tensile and yield strengths, there are no published shear strength values or requirements for ASTM specifications." (Source: https://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/faqs/bolt-shear-strength-considerations/)

In general to find shear strength you multiply the tensile strength per square inch by the tensile stress area and then by .6 for shear strength (because shear strength is typically 60% of tensile strength). (source: https://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/faqs/calculating-shear-strength-of-grade-8-bolts/)

Conditions:
  • here we are discussing a bolt inserted into the holes but not tightened enough to provide a clamping force. If the bolt is clamping the receiver and insert together, you get strength from the clamping friction though to some extent you reduce the bolt shear strength because it is in tension (think about cutting a lose vs. tight piece of string). When you tow, the hitch weight results in some clamping friction between the receiver and insert.
  • here we are discussing a shoulder bolt inserted into the holes where the shoulders touch all bearing surfaces (i.e. the threads are outside the receiver.
  • Here we are discussing double-shear. When you simply bolt one thing onto another, that is single shear.
The minimum tensile strength of a grade 8 bolt is 150,000 psi. A 5/8 coarse thread (11 threads per inch) bolt has a has Tensile Stress Area of .226 sq in. (150,000 x .226) x .6 = 20,340 single shear strength (where it should fail). In "double shear" it should take 40,680 to fail this 5/8" coarse thread grade 8 bolt.

By comparison, the minimum tensile strength of a grade 5 bolt is 120,000 psi. A 5/8 coarse thread (11 threads per inch) bolt has a has Tensile Stress Area of .226 sq in. (120,000 x .226) x .6 = 16,2720 single shear strength (where it should fail). In "double shear" it should take 32,544 to fail this 5/8" coarse thread grade 5 bolt.

This www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/NutsandBolts/Nuts&Bolts_signed.pdf was a fun read today. Had not seen it before. Credibility of author unknown.
This is a informative reference: FastenalTechnicalReferenceGuide.pdf
This is a reference that uses lots of words but kinda says nothing: Hitch Pin Weight Capacity and Sheer Strength
 

nakman

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I was also impressed by the fire extinguisher demo. but 2 things have me hesitate on getting one of the Element versions. Maybe someone else is feeling the same way and/or has a way of getting past these little hangups...

1. there's just no way to practice lighting one, without using it up. As I watched Chris light the demo, I kept wondering how long it would take me, in a panic, to strike the end cap just right to get it going, or would I mix up which end is what, etc. I could see spending 30 seconds just trying to light the thing. I've never lit a flare either, don't have one.

2. you can't just use it for a second, it's one time & done. I have used a normal ABC fire exinguisher on my trucks exactly twice... each time I spotted smoke and was able to promptly pop the hood and put the fire out. Also each time there was maybe 1 second of discharge from the fire extinguisher- not enough to even move the needle on the gauge. So then I put the pin back in and put the tank back in the truck. yes cleaning up that corrosive powder is not cool, but tbh there really wasn't that much of it... was like a 5 minute job.

And if there are actually huge flames coming out of my engine I'm not sure I could even hold that Element close enough to do anything... with the tank I can stand back a lot further. And at that point what difference does the corrosive powder make, the truck's probably toast at that point anyway right? and I know how to stand upwind. Anyway, just my random thoughts it's cool to see new approaches but I'm not ready to jump in just yet. anyone else?
 

Inukshuk

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I was also impressed by the fire extinguisher demo. but 2 things have me hesitate on getting one of the Element versions. Maybe someone else is feeling the same way and/or has a way of getting past these little hangups...

1. there's just no way to practice lighting one, without using it up. As I watched Chris light the demo, I kept wondering how long it would take me, in a panic, to strike the end cap just right to get it going, or would I mix up which end is what, etc. I could see spending 30 seconds just trying to light the thing. I've never lit a flare either, don't have one.

2. you can't just use it for a second, it's one time & done. I have used a normal ABC fire extinguisher on my trucks exactly twice... each time I spotted smoke and was able to promptly pop the hood and put the fire out. Also each time there was maybe 1 second of discharge from the fire extinguisher- not enough to even move the needle on the gauge. So then I put the pin back in and put the tank back in the truck. yes cleaning up that corrosive powder is not cool, but tbh there really wasn't that much of it... was like a 5 minute job.

And if there are actually huge flames coming out of my engine I'm not sure I could even hold that Element close enough to do anything... with the tank I can stand back a lot further. And at that point what difference does the corrosive powder make, the truck's probably toast at that point anyway right? and I know how to stand upwind. Anyway, just my random thoughts it's cool to see new approaches but I'm not ready to jump in just yet. anyone else?
I think most everyone was impressed by the Element.
No one can predict anyone's brain function during a fire and 97.89% of people will not use any fire ext properly. Likely most everyone at the meeting now would effortlessly start the element. Last fire I faced I got the ext from the back of my truck rather than of fteh headrest. I remembered the one I had for 20 years and notthe one I had only two years.
"you can't just use it for a second, it's one time & done." Yup.

Element form factor makes it easy to keep close, even in a backpack/go bag.
 

thatpilotguy

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I think most everyone was impressed by the Element.
No one can predict anyone's brain function during a fire and 97.89% of people will not use any fire ext properly. Likely most everyone at the meeting now would effortlessly start the element. Last fire I faced I got the ext from the back of my truck rather than of fteh headrest. I remembered the one I had for 20 years and notthe one I had only two years.
"you can't just use it for a second, it's one time & done." Yup.

Element form factor makes it easy to keep close, even in a backpack/go bag.
I think most everyone was impressed by the Element.
No one can predict anyone's brain function during a fire and 97.89% of people will not use any fire ext properly. Likely most everyone at the meeting now would effortlessly start the element. Last fire I faced I got the ext from the back of my truck rather than of fteh headrest. I remembered the one I had for 20 years and notthe one I had only two years.
"you can't just use it for a second, it's one time & done." Yup.

Element form factor makes it easy to keep close, even in a backpack/go bag.

Basically
Bottom line is something is better than nothing. I found this chart online which I think summarizes different agents pretty well.
 

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