FZJ80 starting woes

satchel

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Looks like the starter is self grounding to the block. May help to make sure the mating surface from the starter to the block is free of grime and getting a good connection, and that any grounds close to there going back to the battery are in good shape. I know you stated you did the ground from the battery to the block but are there a couple of grounds on the block where perhaps the one closest to the starter isn't as good?

I think I'd bypass the signal wire for troubleshooting and that will tell you quickly if it is the power or ground side of the equation.
 
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AimCOTaco

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Have you tried browsing Camry adds from the driver seat yet?
Dang man, I'm surprised that between the cable and the new starter you're not there. My flat fender may or may not have a push button starter switch to band-aid a bad ignition switch... but I'd probably not do that to the 80.

Jump the #6!
 

DaveInDenver

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Looks like the starter is self grounding to the block. May help to make sure the mating surface from the starter to the block is free of grime and getting a good connection, and that any grounds close to there going back to the battery are in good shape. I know you stated you did the ground from the battery to the block but are there a couple of grounds on the block where perhaps the one closest to the starter isn't as good?
Check your grounds, it's not just for troubleshooting FJ40s.
 

satchel

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I feel like there was a ground on the front engine hanger as well, but I would assume what I have circled here is where your main ground for the starter would be. Is this the one you checked?

1623965453704.png
 

Hulk

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Thanks for all the help guys. Headed out for some camping with the family — I'll pick this up again next week. My first thing to do is jumper the big wires for the Neutral Safety Switch to verify if that is indeed the problem. Need to get my 80 running before the BOWAGW Run!
 

Hulk

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I bought a new OEM NSS. My truck seems to start better in Neutral then in park. Bought it from Elmore TRD parts in Cali. I checked through Stevinson and Elmore was about 20 bucks cheaper. I belive the NSS is the same part number for 91 through 95?
https://trdtoyotaparts.elmoretoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-neutral-safety-switch-8454060010
Have you received it yet? Can you post a photo of it when you get it? I was trying to hunt this down last night. Stevinson doesn't even call it a NSS — it's listed as an Automatic Transmission Gear Position Sensor with the same part number.
 

ccslider

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Best way to clean terminals is a hand held sand blaster filled with baking soda.
 

RayRay27

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Have you received it yet? Can you post a photo of it when you get it? I was trying to hunt this down last night. Stevinson doesn't even call it a NSS — it's listed as an Automatic Transmission Gear Position Sensor with the same part number.
Not yet. It should be here tomorrow or Saturday.
 

ccslider

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I'm sure I have a spare NSS laying around in the pile I call a garage if you want to test
 

Hulk

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UPDATE: Here is what I have done so far...

Previously on Cruiser ER:
1. Cleaned and inspected the wires and plug connecting to the neutral safety switch.
2. Replaced the fusible link.
3. Replaced the starter.
4. Replaced both the positive battery cable (connects to starter) and the negative battery cables (connects to engine block + a smaller wire connecting to the body)
5. Replaced the ignition switch.

New:
6. Pulled the neutral safety switch. Used a jumper to bypass the switch to see if this is the problem. No luck.
7. Pulled, inspected, and re-installed all fuses. No luck.
8. Used a jumper from the positive terminal on the battery directly to the small wire on the starter. Details. Essentially, I hot-wired the Cruiser, bypassing the entire ignition circuit. THIS WORKS! It cranks strongly and instantly.

This means the problem is NOT:
- battery
- starter
- battery cables
- grounds

Problem is somewhere in the ignition circuit. Here's a description of the circuit on Mud:
The current in the starter circuit starts at the battery,
passes through fusible links and fuses,
then through the ignition switch (switch is closed when the key is at the START position) and
then takes a tour over to the glovebox
before coming into the NSS as the black-with-white-tracer wire.
From there, assuming the transmission is in neutral or park, the current leaves the NSS as the black-with-red-tracer wire and goes to the starter solenoid.

Next suspects:
  • I noticed a piezo chirper in the engine bay. It's a Floyd Bell SP-609. It's connected to a Glass Breakage Sensor Electronic Control Unit, Toyota Part No. 08192-00970. Not sure how I diagnose the sensor to see if it's good. Is the sensor and alarm system even part of the ignition circuit? I'd be glad to remove the whole thing, but I'd love to keep the keyless remote. See attached photos.
  • Wondering what the deal is with the ignition circuit going to the glovebox.

9. If all else fails, I can install a relay and bypass the ignition system, as several people on Mud have done.
10. Give up, buy a Camry.
 

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DaveInDenver

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Next suspects:
  • I noticed a piezo chirper in the engine bay. It's a Floyd Bell SP-609. It's connected to a Glass Breakage Sensor Electronic Control Unit, Toyota Part No. 08192-00970. Not sure how I diagnose the sensor to see if it's good. Is the sensor and alarm system even part of the ignition circuit? I'd be glad to remove the whole thing, but I'd love to keep the keyless remote. See attached photos.

My truck had an alarm on it when I bought it that was intermittently failing. It wasn't a factory system and they'd tapped a relay in the starting circuit. I eventually removed it. Yours at least has a Toyota part number which means it *might* not have been hacked in by what appeared to a high school shop student such as mine.

  • Wondering what the deal is with the ignition circuit going to the glovebox.

If you look at the wiring diagram turning the key does more than one thing in the ST position, it engages the starter and tells the ECU you're starting. The ECU might make decisions when you're in ST verses IG. That's why I asked if the engine is cranking but not starting verses not cranking at all. I suspect all the ECU wants to know is whether to regulate fuel and ignition spark or not. During start it probably just goes to open loop max fuel with advance pulled back verse normal closed loop.

It looks to me that the circuit to the engine ECU shouldn't prevent the starter from cranking. There's nothing coming back from the ECU to the starter circuit to disengage the solenoid. It might just crank and crank and crank and never catch but the starter should still engage if the key-NSS-solenoid circuit is intact.

There is a mysterious circuit opening relay shown as the third place the START black-red wire goes. On the 22R-E this would interrupt the fuel supply. Another way for the truck to crank but not start.

9. If all else fails, I can install a relay and bypass the ignition system, as several people on Mud have done.

Your 80 isn't that complex, it's solvable with a meter and I bet it's a broken wire or connector. It might not be intuitive to trace since the harness may run across the dash to the ECU and then back to the starter through a couple of connectors and jumper blocks.

Do you have the FSM and EWD (in Toyota speak, Electrical Wiring Diagram) for your year? The circuit, colors and reference designators might be different from the images I posted earlier (I think a 1994 manual). I doubt that would be the case with a fundamental system like this but it's possible.

Bypassing it might actually be less work (and it may require pulling a new wire eventually anyway) but wouldn't it be satisfying to do it right? Keep at it, man, you'll get it. Taking the time to trace the wiring in what's becoming an antique car you might find other issues that would have caused a future gremlin, too.
 
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Hulk

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After reading up on the relay option, it still connects to the ignition circuit so you can start the vehicle with your key, but the power comes straight from the battery. The requirement is that enough power comes through the ignition circuit to trigger the relay. (Maybe that was obvious to other people, but I was thinking I would have to install a start button on the dash.) Several people on Mud talk about troubleshooting starting issues for a year with sporadic successes that worked for short periods of time, and then finally installing a relay that fixed the problem permanently. So honestly, I'm probably just going to buy the Ford relay that people are using and see if that fixes the problem.
 

dan1554

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Any properly rated relay should work, so I wouldn't go looking for the ford one specifically unless its the cheapest thing out there. Whats the solenoid draw, 10 amps? I went with a 50 amp relay I had laying around, probably overkill.
 

DaveInDenver

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After reading up on the relay option, it still connects to the ignition circuit so you can start the vehicle with your key, but the power comes straight from the battery. The requirement is that enough power comes through the ignition circuit to trigger the relay. (Maybe that was obvious to other people, but I was thinking I would have to install a start button on the dash.) Several people on Mud talk about troubleshooting starting issues for a year with sporadic successes that worked for short periods of time, and then finally installing a relay that fixed the problem permanently. So honestly, I'm probably just going to buy the Ford relay that people are using and see if that fixes the problem.
Sporadic issues certainly sound like a dodgy connection that will mean the voltage and current will vary depending on temperature, humidity, angle of driveway or last song played on the radio.

And here I thought Cruisers were bulletproof. A little corrosion on a wire somewhere is their Achilles heel.
 

subzali

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DaveInDenver

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Any properly rated relay should work, so I wouldn't go looking for the ford one specifically unless its the cheapest thing out there. Whats the solenoid draw, 10 amps? I went with a 50 amp relay I had laying around, probably overkill.
Depends on what the suggested fix is. If they're bypassing the whole factory system including the starter solenoid then the Ford is probably the best bet since that's what those actually are, starter solenoids. If they're keeping the stock solenoid in place then you're spot on. I'd probably use something Toyota just to have an on-board spare, like the headlight or fuel pump relay, or maybe a standard Bosch that you could find at any NAPA.
 

Inukshuk

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You can have the Ford relay I bought in San Felipe, Baja when I was worried about my truck (don't worry, its from Autozone). I should drive down South, bring you the relay, have a beer with Romer and his Tregg and we can browse CL for your Camry
 

DaveInDenver

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