Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
That's good to know. How long did you have your problem? Did it work fine and then suddenly start having problems like mine did? Or have you had this problem a long time and/or it came on gradually?
FJ60 Intermittent Stall at Idle
- Thread starter Rzeppa
- Start date
That's good to know. How long did you have your problem? Did it work fine and then suddenly start having problems like mine did? Or have you had this problem a long time and/or it came on gradually?
When I got my 60 it was not running, the PO told me the engine was shot as it had a rod knock (his mechanic said) Turned out to be the smog pump was shot. So i have been gradually resurrecting it, new smog pump as well as some smog equipment. It still would not run quite right until i adjusted the valves, that made a huge difference, I also snugged the manifold bolts at the same time, I got a half turn on them.
After this the truck ran pretty good until i would come to a stop, and then it would die. Some days it would run good and not die at a stop and then suddenly it would do it again. It had me baffled and it would do it randomly when coming to a stop, so hit and miss.
I cant really say its fixed as i havent drove it much since swapping the carb , but my initial test drive last night was different, it drove different and had more power, definitely does not feel like my truck
in a good way.
Curious drive it some more.
After this the truck ran pretty good until i would come to a stop, and then it would die. Some days it would run good and not die at a stop and then suddenly it would do it again. It had me baffled and it would do it randomly when coming to a stop, so hit and miss.
I cant really say its fixed as i havent drove it much since swapping the carb , but my initial test drive last night was different, it drove different and had more power, definitely does not feel like my truck
in a good way.Curious drive it some more.
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
Well I am still dealing with this issue, but keep working through potential causes and eliminating things one by one. One of the things that occurred to me is that 60s have two vacuum advance diaphragms, one for the spark control and the other for the High Altitude Compensation (HAC) system. The latter is supposed to simply give an extra 7° whenever you are over approximately 4,000 feet elevation, which is everywhere around here. The former is supposed to kick in here and there and is more an emissions thing (the manual says it is a retard).
Anyway, my thinking was that maybe one of these was kicking in when it wasn't supposed to, or not kicking in when it was supposed to. When I smogged this rig I discovered the static advance was set at 17°, which is really far for a 60. Robbie thought that maybe the distributor had been installed off by a tooth, but the advance reading I got was from a dial back light, so it really doesn't matter which teeth are engaged with the cam.
When I took the cap off, this is what it looked like - pretty corroded!
Anyway, my thinking was that maybe one of these was kicking in when it wasn't supposed to, or not kicking in when it was supposed to. When I smogged this rig I discovered the static advance was set at 17°, which is really far for a 60. Robbie thought that maybe the distributor had been installed off by a tooth, but the advance reading I got was from a dial back light, so it really doesn't matter which teeth are engaged with the cam.
When I took the cap off, this is what it looked like - pretty corroded!
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Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
Okay, so that looks pretty corroded. But remember, this rig runs GREAT at all throttle positions above idle.
So to see what's going on with the diaphragms, I got out my Mity-Vac. Normally I use it for one man brake bleeding, but I made a tube adapter out of two different diameter tubes to go from the Mity-Vac to the little vacuum ports on the diaphragms.
First I hooked it to the inside spark control diaphragm. I squeezed the trigger and nothing happened. I disconnected and thought maybe my tubing had a leak. Nope, one pump up to 10" on the gauge, two pumps up to 20" and holding on the gauge when I put my finger over the hole at the end of the tubing. Try again, same result.
So the spark control diaphragm has a leak and is inoperative.
Next I tried the outside (HAC) diaphragm. This time it held vacuum, but didn't budge the distributor. Not really surprising seeing how corroded the inside of the distributor body is.
So neither vacuum diaphragms are doing anything. Good or bad.
Basically all I have is static and (hopefully) centrifugal advance. I think the centrifugal advance is working because I remember that when I was dorking around with the timing for emissions that it changed with RPMs.
At the end of the day, I don't think the timing is causing my intermittent stalling at idle issue. It will be good to get that working again though, and fortunately I do have a spare used 60 distributor. I just need to give it a good work over to make sure I am not wasting my time if I put it in.
So to see what's going on with the diaphragms, I got out my Mity-Vac. Normally I use it for one man brake bleeding, but I made a tube adapter out of two different diameter tubes to go from the Mity-Vac to the little vacuum ports on the diaphragms.
First I hooked it to the inside spark control diaphragm. I squeezed the trigger and nothing happened. I disconnected and thought maybe my tubing had a leak. Nope, one pump up to 10" on the gauge, two pumps up to 20" and holding on the gauge when I put my finger over the hole at the end of the tubing. Try again, same result.
So the spark control diaphragm has a leak and is inoperative.
Next I tried the outside (HAC) diaphragm. This time it held vacuum, but didn't budge the distributor. Not really surprising seeing how corroded the inside of the distributor body is.
So neither vacuum diaphragms are doing anything. Good or bad.
Basically all I have is static and (hopefully) centrifugal advance. I think the centrifugal advance is working because I remember that when I was dorking around with the timing for emissions that it changed with RPMs.
At the end of the day, I don't think the timing is causing my intermittent stalling at idle issue. It will be good to get that working again though, and fortunately I do have a spare used 60 distributor. I just need to give it a good work over to make sure I am not wasting my time if I put it in.
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
While I was at it, I replace the plug wires with new OEM from Stevinson. We had a horrible stumbling problem at highway speed when driving through a torrential downpour on a road trip and it went away when we got out of the rain and things dried out. I figured the old, aftermarket wires were old and likely leaky. Odd thing about the new OEM wires is that number 2 and number 5 are straight and all the rest are right angles. Note the Yazaki OEM wires are even numbered!
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Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
So at this point, I am pretty sure I have some kind of obstruction in the idle fuel circuit. When I was up at Joe Callejas, his tech suggested that what he would try is to remove the idle solenoid and the idle mixture screw and spray carb cleaner through that passage. That makes total sense.
Further, when I was at the meeting earlier this month I pulled Robbie aside and asked him and he suggested that he had seen where in some cases, the o-ring on the idle solenoid deteriorated and little pieces of it could clog up that passage. He said he would check for that.
So that's what I did.
I took the idle solenoid out and inspected it. The o-ring was fine. Then I hooked it up and visually observed the operation of the plunger inside. It was working correctly. I sprayed carb cleaner through the port and observed it gushing out where I had removed the idle mixture screw. Then it occurred to me that the passage between the idle mixture screw and the throttle body might be obstructed. So I reamed it out.
Then I put everything back together and went for a test drive.
The good news is, I didn't bugger anything up, she drove great.
The bad news is, the intermittent stall at idle is unchanged.
Further, when I was at the meeting earlier this month I pulled Robbie aside and asked him and he suggested that he had seen where in some cases, the o-ring on the idle solenoid deteriorated and little pieces of it could clog up that passage. He said he would check for that.
So that's what I did.
I took the idle solenoid out and inspected it. The o-ring was fine. Then I hooked it up and visually observed the operation of the plunger inside. It was working correctly. I sprayed carb cleaner through the port and observed it gushing out where I had removed the idle mixture screw. Then it occurred to me that the passage between the idle mixture screw and the throttle body might be obstructed. So I reamed it out.
Then I put everything back together and went for a test drive.
The good news is, I didn't bugger anything up, she drove great.
The bad news is, the intermittent stall at idle is unchanged.
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Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
Taking advantage of the long weekend and nice weather, I worked some more on my 60. One of the things that a couple of people and I discussed at the Rally was the possibility that there was some kind of intermittent open in the power wiring to the idle fuel cut solenoid.
So I built a couple of pigtails with .250 female disconnects on one end and stripped copper at the other end. I plugged them in to the solenoid connector and then connected the other ends to the battery + terminal and ground respectively. A little risky I know without any fusing but this was just for a quick diagnostic.
When I connected the ground I heard the solenoid clicking it's little head off.
I drove around, and there was no change. Sometimes she'd idle when you roll to a stop, other times she'd stall.
So I built a couple of pigtails with .250 female disconnects on one end and stripped copper at the other end. I plugged them in to the solenoid connector and then connected the other ends to the battery + terminal and ground respectively. A little risky I know without any fusing but this was just for a quick diagnostic.
When I connected the ground I heard the solenoid clicking it's little head off.
I drove around, and there was no change. Sometimes she'd idle when you roll to a stop, other times she'd stall.
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
So the only thing that I haven't checked, out of all the various suggestions I have gotten is to actually take the top of the carb off and see what's going on in the float bowl.
Before I started I snapped a picture in case I couldn't remember how the spaghetti is supposed to reconnect.
Before I started I snapped a picture in case I couldn't remember how the spaghetti is supposed to reconnect.
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Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
After I put everything back together and went for a test drive, I had good news and bad news.
The good news was that I didn't bugger anything up.
The bad news was that I didn't fix the problem.
I think I am going to pay Robbie to check it out, I am at wits end!
Again, everything was fine until I failed emissions. To pass emissions, I put in a leaner jet, put the timing back to factory 7° static, changed the air cleaner element and added some methanol to the fuel. She ran like crap but passed with flying colors.
After I passed, I filled the tank up with fresh gas, put the old jet back in and put the timing back to 17°. I subsequently learned that the reason she needed the 17° was that neither distributor diaphragm was doing any advance, but I am sure that predated the intermittent stall at idle.
After my last test drive and several stalls, I pulled into the driveway and sat while she idled smooth and continuously.
Any new ideas are much appreciated!
The good news was that I didn't bugger anything up.
The bad news was that I didn't fix the problem.
I think I am going to pay Robbie to check it out, I am at wits end!
Again, everything was fine until I failed emissions. To pass emissions, I put in a leaner jet, put the timing back to factory 7° static, changed the air cleaner element and added some methanol to the fuel. She ran like crap but passed with flying colors.
After I passed, I filled the tank up with fresh gas, put the old jet back in and put the timing back to 17°. I subsequently learned that the reason she needed the 17° was that neither distributor diaphragm was doing any advance, but I am sure that predated the intermittent stall at idle.
After my last test drive and several stalls, I pulled into the driveway and sat while she idled smooth and continuously.
Any new ideas are much appreciated!
MDH33
Hard Core 4+
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
I still think it's the EGR.
I have already disconnected the EGR so it does not operate.
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
No I haven't yet. My take on it is that there is no conceivable reason that a seized vacuum advance on the distributor can make the idle work OK one minute and stall the next. Everything worked fine up until I did a few things to pass smog. Ever since then it has this intermittent stall at idle.
I do plan to replace the dizzy with my spare after I verify that the spare is working properly, but it didn't cause this problem. Likewise with the BVSVs.
MDH33
Hard Core 4+
Jeff, but have you tried disconnecting the tach from the ignitor? I had a weird stumble/hesitation at 2000rpm and after hunting and searching for a reason (I suspected fuel) someone suggested disconnecting the tach. Apparently it's a common problem. Something with the tach causing the ignitor to malfunction. Maybe yours is doing the same but at a lower rpm which causes the stall?
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
Wow, that is certainly among the more esoteric things I have heard. It stands to reason that the tach might give some input to the emissions computer, along with the speedo, but I thought the ignitor was just power, ground and the signal from the magnetic pickup in the distributor.
I'll have to look into that. Thanks Martin.
MDH33
Hard Core 4+
Easy enough to test. Just unplug the connector between the tach and ignitor and drive it around to see what happens. On mine, when the tach would hit 2000 rpm, it seemed like power to the coil was cut momentarily which caused the stumble.
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
Where is this connector? And when it starts to stall, all I have to do is goose the throttle - would that still be electrical/ignition? Doesn't that seem more like an issue with the idle circuit fuel delivery?
Rzeppa
Rising Sun Member
I was chatting with Mike Simpson last night after the meeting and I recalled that I hadn't posted up the latest info.
I spoke with Robbie on the phone about this a few weeks ago, and while we both figuratively scratched our heads as I described all my observations. Then he had an interesting theory. He thought that perhaps, if the distributor was that rusty, maybe the centrifugal advance was sticking intermittently?
So the next weekend, I took my spare distributor out and verified that both diaphragms operated when I applied vacuum with my Mit-T-Vac anc that the shaft rotated smoothly. I used my big ol' nut socket on the big ol' nut to rotate the crank to TDC for a good reference point, took the old distributor out and put the new one in. I set the static timing at 11° instead of the 17° that it had been.
Well, she ran absolutely great, but when driving around she still stalls sometimes when you put the clutch in.
I spoke with Robbie on the phone about this a few weeks ago, and while we both figuratively scratched our heads as I described all my observations. Then he had an interesting theory. He thought that perhaps, if the distributor was that rusty, maybe the centrifugal advance was sticking intermittently?
So the next weekend, I took my spare distributor out and verified that both diaphragms operated when I applied vacuum with my Mit-T-Vac anc that the shaft rotated smoothly. I used my big ol' nut socket on the big ol' nut to rotate the crank to TDC for a good reference point, took the old distributor out and put the new one in. I set the static timing at 11° instead of the 17° that it had been.
Well, she ran absolutely great, but when driving around she still stalls sometimes when you put the clutch in.
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