Dispersed camping to be banned in the Crested Butte Valley

[DaveInDenver]

Good to here the BLM mandates portable crappers up there even if folks don’t comply. At least that is a step in the right direction. I wish the NFS would do the same here in the San Juan’s. I’ve carried one for years.

Maybe if we switched from “pack your crap out is better for others” to “sure beats squatting over a hole” there would be better compliance. Sell it as a benefit to the user rather than to the community.

FWIW, I'm not 100% sure it's a universal requirement on all BLM land (which I think shares the same "it's suggested" statement as the USFS). It's just that the GJ field office says portable toilets are required for dispersed camping at Rabbit Valley, for example, and North Fruita Desert. I'm fairly certain the Moab field office says they are required, too. I'm not sure about less managed place. For example I don't know if the Price field office requires or only suggests them for the Swell.

Rabbit Valley Motorized Area | Bureau of Land Management

www.blm.gov

 

[Shuksan]

Good to here the BLM mandates portable crappers up there even if folks don’t comply. At least that is a step in the right direction. I wish the NFS would do the same here in the San Juan’s. I’ve carried one for years.

Maybe if we switched from “pack your crap out is better for others” to “sure beats squatting over a hole” there would be better compliance. Sell it as a benefit to the user rather than to the community.

We switched to one of these a few years back:

Amazon.com : Reliance Products Fold-to-Go Collapsible Portable Toilet, 9824-21W, Gray/Black, 14.5"x14.5"x14.5" : Camping Sanitation Supplies : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Reliance Products Fold-to-Go Collapsible Portable Toilet, 9824-21W, Gray/Black, 14.5"x14.5"x14.5" : Camping Sanitation Supplies : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

certainly easier with kids and hey some of the ground in CO aint that easy to dig a hole in.

 

[coax]

After living there for a few years, from 2018/2019 things were indeed absoutely nuts, both in terms of sheer volume of people around as well as in some cases, irresponsible land use. So many people traveled there for longer trips, even if there were no previously impacted areas, the would just pull off onto the grass and camp. Works ok in lightly traveled areas...but day after day with massive crowds...human waste and impact became a huge issue and the area started to lose its allure and beauty.

The issues of use vs preservation and regulation vs. personal responsibility probably won't get solved any time soon. Like said above, area was just getting loved to death.

 

[Inukshuk]

"Dispersed camping is out of control in Chaffee County. Officials are seeking solutions."

Dispersed camping is out of control in Chaffee County. Officials are seeking solutions.

An explosion in visitors and degrading ethics are wrecking natural areas. But just closing campsites won’t fix the problem, land managers say

coloradosun.com

 

[J Kimmel]

I don't deny that is true, however what I'm suggesting is enforcing existing rules on 14-day limits and requiring your camp to be occupied each night to avoid being deemed abandoned.

Wait you mean like 99% of problems? Why enforce something when we can just make more restrictions.

 

[DaveInDenver]

"Dispersed camping is out of control in Chaffee County. Officials are seeking solutions."

Dispersed camping is out of control in Chaffee County. Officials are seeking solutions.

An explosion in visitors and degrading ethics are wrecking natural areas. But just closing campsites won’t fix the problem, land managers say

coloradosun.com

"Dispersed camping Industrial recreation is out of control in Chaffee County everywhere. Officials are seeking solutions."

That article could pretty much be cut-and-paste for just about any town in many aspects. Lots see how badly Moab screwed the pooch but still the push-pull exists between inviting the hordes and despising them. Chambers of Commerce love tourism but they only seem to drive spreadsheets and never actually try to find a place to camp or see the white flagged piles of shit right by parking lots.

 

[Sean Solo]

From the article...

The BLM’s Royal Gorge field office, which manages more than 660,000 acres of public land stretching from the Wyoming border to the New Mexico line, saw 1.5 million visitors in 2010. By 2019, the number grew to 1.9 million. In 2020, as pandemic shutdowns saw hordes of people seek recreation on public lands, visitation soared to 4.7 million. In 2021 it dropped back to 2.7 million — still 42% higher than before the pandemic.

Tough problem to solve. A bit of a Kobayashi Maru situation.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Bennet introduced bill to boost outdoor recreation

In an effort to boost outdoor recreation on federal lands, U.S. Sen. Michael Bennet, D-Colo., and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., have introduced a bill into the U.S. Senate

www.gjsentinel.com

"The bill would focus on simple improvements to allow public lands to accommodate more users, such as improved boat ramps, larger parking areas at trail heads, and expanded picnic areas and other outdoor facilities.​

​

The measure also would encourage partnerships with higher education for research and education, and provide grants directly to businesses that focus on outdoor recreation."​

Yeah, more parking lots and research, that ought to solve it.

 

[3rdGen4R]

Bennet introduced bill to boost outdoor recreation

In an effort to boost outdoor recreation on federal lands, U.S. Sen. Michael Bennet, D-Colo., and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., have introduced a bill into the U.S. Senate

www.gjsentinel.com

"The bill would focus on simple improvements to allow public lands to accommodate more users, such as improved boat ramps, larger parking areas at trail heads, and expanded picnic areas and other outdoor facilities.​

​

The measure also would encourage partnerships with higher education for research and education, and provide grants directly to businesses that focus on outdoor recreation."​

Yeah, more parking lots and research, that ought to solve it.

What other solutions does the government really have?

 

[DaveInDenver]

What other solutions does the government really have?

When all you have is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail.

My gut tells me politicians who introduce these bills have never spent more than a fact finding tour length of time in the places or communities affected.

 

[3rdGen4R]

When all you have is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail.

My gut tells me politicians who introduce these bills have never spent more than a fact finding tour length of time in the places or communities affected.

Maybe that’s true, but there job isn’t to fo nothing. They are being asked to address some of these problems so I’m not against proposals, it’s kind of the way you move forward on ideas to solve problems.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Maybe that’s true, but there job isn’t to fo nothing. They are being asked to address some of these problems so I’m not against proposals, it’s kind of the way you move forward on ideas to solve problems.

Who's asking them to address the problems? They created the problem in the first place with all the tinkering with Wilderness, road-less areas or dispersed-to-designated camping.

They listen to well funded special interest lobbyists who's advice results in concentrating existing, or worse, increased use to fewer areas. By "addressing" it they're exacerbating the problem.

Then everyone involved is shocked, just shocked, when overuse happens. So they build bigger parking lots so more people can jam onto the remaining trails. Then more money is poured into think tanks to study the overuse, who recommend infrastructure improvements that turn places into a Disneyland of development and signage and ultimately permit systems.

But no one seems capable of concluding that selling the crap out of the lifestyle (ka-ching $$$) while simultaneously reducing available opportunities caused it in the first place.

 

[pmccumber]

Two things:

(1) We have a home in Creede. Mineral County has one paved road in the county over 1/2 mi long and that's the highway. Lots of dirt roads. Down in the suburban sprawl along the Rio Grande, there is an issue with ATVs. 10 years ago, it wasn't an issue but now the traffic on those roads has increased by at least a couple orders of magnitude. Three years running there have been public meetings to address possible remedies and they all devolve in to sheer bedlam. A simple solution like asking ATV riders to keep their speeds under 15 mph just goes off the rails. Walter Sobchak from Big Lebowski is always there with something like "I didn't watch my buddies die face down in the mud so you could hand our country over to the commies!". So people who have lived their their entire lives in the area have to deal with a permanent cloud of dust. And noise. And it's 100%, not hyperbole here, 100% people from out of state.

(2) The attached pictures. I think a huge part of the problem is just flat out ignorance. And I'm generally really forgiving of ignorance. Willful ignorance, no. But someone who just doesn't know any better I'll give them a chance.

The pictures are from 4th of July weekend in 2018 west of Rio Grande Reservoir along the Stoney Pass road. We set up across from a beautiful meadow, naively, on the Wednesday of the holiday weekend. First thing to understand is that to the legions of people piling in to the state from points south and east, MEADOW=PARKING LOT. I was stunned. I wish I would have taken a picture when we left on the 3rd but there were 20+ trucks/trailers.

At one point, a group from Georgia rolled up with 5 vehicles. They were the group on the right. The gates came down and the ATVs rolled off and the kids piled on and they were buzzing around while the adults finished the deployment. It looked like footage from D-Day. There were 12 ATVs and 4-6 of them were ripping up (multiple meanings intended) that hillside.

I walked over, gestured to one of the adults. I figured calmly explaining to one of them what was wrong with what they were doing was worth a shot. I showed him the vertical signs, most of which were knocked over but still showed "No motorized vehicles" and threats of fines and mandatory appearances. I explained that the area was sensitive and that driving the ATVs off the roads was damaging.

The guy was actually really cool. He thanked me. He rounded up his tribe of Banshees and 30 minutes later, they went up Stoney Pass road with a couple of the trucks and the rest on ATVs. I was left believing that a little education for these people, they're most good people, and they'd be on board.

My Conclusion: When I first had children, a man I really respected told me "Spoiling your children isn't giving them things. The poorest person in the world can have a spoiled rotten kid and a rich man can have a well-adjusted kid. Spoiling your child is letting them do things they shouldn't do." I think the time has come to quit spoiling people who destroy some of things we treasure. Yeah it sucks but we are the stewards of this land and it's wrong not to.

 

[DaveInDenver]

And it's 100%, not hyperbole here, 100% people from out of state.

Weekday afternoon:


Weekend afternoon:


It's not an absolute but the difference is pretty stark and not difficult to figure out. Most plates are still CO and UT but they are almost all visitors from Denver and SLC. Locals know Kokopelli is a shitshow on weekends and stay away.



And when you see this sort of crap you're either making it too easy for BLM/USFS to figure it out.

Or a not-so-cleverly done ruse to make user groups look bad. My theory is some of the vandalism around here (there's been a considerable amount) lately is people trying to frame MTB/4WD/OHV users. There's a push-pull between traditional users who see out-of-town interests and recent transplants trying to change things and it can get pretty tense.

I get it and am sympathetic (I think dirt bikes got shafted being kicked off Tabaguche trails they built). It was dirt bikes and prospectors who cut in all the roads around here so for some granola head to come in and say what you've been doing for 40 years is wrong is very irritating. So we see spike strips periodically still.

But in this case the crude nature of it being obviously pulled over makes me think it's what it seems - a drunk jackass on an ATV.

 

[3rdGen4R]

Who's asking them to address the problems? They created the problem in the first place with all the tinkering with Wilderness, road-less areas or dispersed-to-designated camping.

They listen to well funded special interest lobbyists who's advice results in concentrating existing, or worse, increased use to fewer areas. By "addressing" it they're exacerbating the problem.

Then everyone involved is shocked, just shocked, when overuse happens. So they build bigger parking lots so more people can jam onto the remaining trails. Then more money is poured into think tanks to study the overuse, who recommend infrastructure improvements that turn places into a Disneyland of development and signage and ultimately permit systems.

But no one seems capable of concluding that selling the crap out of the lifestyle (ka-ching $$$) while simultaneously reducing available opportunities caused it in the first place.

Dave,

you don't think people are asking the government to solve some of these issues? Are you serious?

 

[DaveInDenver]

Dave,

you don't think people are asking the government to solve some of these issues? Are you serious?

Yes, people are asking for it. It's problem-reaction-solution. Those seeking remedy have a solution they want (closing public lands to "unacceptable" use) and have created a problem to which a reaction can be generated to get to that solution.

 

[riderjgs]

Who's asking them to address the problems? They created the problem in the first place with all the tinkering with Wilderness, road-less areas or dispersed-to-designated camping.

They listen to well funded special interest lobbyists who's advice results in concentrating existing, or worse, increased use to fewer areas. By "addressing" it they're exacerbating the problem.

Then everyone involved is shocked, just shocked, when overuse happens. So they build bigger parking lots so more people can jam onto the remaining trails. Then more money is poured into think tanks to study the overuse, who recommend infrastructure improvements that turn places into a Disneyland of development and signage and ultimately permit systems.

But no one seems capable of concluding that selling the crap out of the lifestyle (ka-ching $$$) while simultaneously reducing available opportunities caused it in the first place.

The outdoor industry (and some of us) are just as much to blame. Who advocates most for more trails to every conceivable destination, unrestricted access, less regulation and against fees? We’re loving the backcountry to death for our own selfish reasons, then pointing fingers when sometimes we ought to be looking in the mirror.

 

[3rdGen4R]

Yes, people are asking for it. It's problem-reaction-solution. Those seeking remedy have a solution they want (closing public lands to "unacceptable" use) and have created a problem to which a reaction can be generated to get to that solution.

OK. So, we have established that there is a framework. You may not like the framework, but the real solution comes to organizing and working within that framework. And just to be clear, I think it's a little insincere to paint everyone that you oppose with one brush.

The outdoor industry (and some of us) are just as much to blame. Who advocates most for more trails to every conceivable destination, unrestricted access, less regulation and against fees? We’re loving the backcountry to death for our own selfish reasons, then pointing fingers when sometimes we ought to be looking in the mirror.

Yup. We are one part of competing interest; we are not the only voice that has reason to ask for more.

 

[riderjgs]

OK. So, we have established that there is a framework. You may not like the framework, but the real solution comes to organizing and working within that framework. And just to be clear, I think it's a little insincere to paint everyone that you oppose with one brush.

Yup. We are one part of competing interest; we are not the only voice that has reason to ask for more.

...or perhaps accept a little less than optimum for us in return for preserving some of the solitude we profess to value. It's not enough to build, maintain and clean up trails we enjoy. Even regular mountain bike use drives wildlife from an area. It's the incremental incursions into migration patterns, breeding and birthing areas, etc. that are at least partially responsible for declines in wildlife numbers. And I agree with most that the explosion of ATVs in the hands of inexperienced drivers is way out of hand. Coming down Taylor Pass into the park a couple of years ago there must have been a dozen ATVs/side by sides for every traditional 4wd vehicle. We camped right a timberline along the trail and spent the evening listening to some Bubba above us blasting rocks with automatic (not semi-auto) rounds.
Both sides of my family emigrated to Crested Butte in the early 1880s and we still have property in the area along the Slate River. I often wonder what my great grandfathers and grandfathers would think.

 

[FunkyYota]

...or perhaps accept a little less than optimum for us in return for preserving some of the solitude we profess to value. It's not enough to build, maintain and clean up trails we enjoy. Even regular mountain bike use drives wildlife from an area. It's the incremental incursions into migration patterns, breeding and birthing areas, etc. that are at least partially responsible for declines in wildlife numbers. And I agree with most that the explosion of ATVs in the hands of inexperienced drivers is way out of hand. Coming down Taylor Pass into the park a couple of years ago there must have been a dozen ATVs/side by sides for every traditional 4wd vehicle. We camped right a timberline along the trail and spent the evening listening to some Bubba above us blasting rocks with automatic (not semi-auto) rounds.
Both sides of my family emigrated to Crested Butte in the early 1880s and we still have property in the area along the Slate River. I often wonder what my great grandfathers and grandfathers would think.

Speaking of Taylor pass. Here’s a couple pics I took last year of some folks going around the bumpy stream section. Pretty typical behavior on this trail in my experience