Toyota And Lexus Preview 15 Electric Vehicles, Including Sports Cars
Toyota held a conference about its battery strategy and took everyone by surprise with the preview of no fewer than 15 EVs.
www.motor1.com
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Toyota EV Lineup
- Thread starter satchel
- Start date
www.motor1.com
3rdGen4R
Hard Core 4+
I wonder if Toyota will take the stance that both Tesla and Rivian have taken with basically taking the stance you are not allowed to modify the vehicle beyond tires and rims. No one seems to be questioning ownership rights with these new EV’s. If you don’t really own the vehicle and the manufacture turns the vehicle off of their system once you modify it, the days of 4wheeling will be way more expensive in the future.
It’ll be exciting to see what Toyota has done to the Taco once we know more.
It’ll be exciting to see what Toyota has done to the Taco once we know more.
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Cruisertrash
Hard Core 4+
My big takeaway here is that modern automotive design is hot garbage.
mcgaskins
Rising Sun Member
Where have you read that you are not allowed to modify Tesla or Rivian vehicles? Many Tesla owners modify their cars in myriad ways, and Rivian owners will do the same. If you are referring to modifying things like the sealed battery pack or drive units, I would ask why would you want to do that? If you modify the engine or gas tank in a Toyota, you will definitely void the warranty on those parts, so I'm not really sure where the concern lies.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Kind of like diff or t-case gear ratios, lockers, snorkels or Long Ranger tanks? It's usually not the first owner off the lot but sometimes. And people do that to pretty young Tacos, 4Runners and 200 series, not just old junk.
Mods are a legitimate question IMO because the market model for EVs is to view them as appliances like a phone but enthusiasts, especially 4WD, tend to view a truck as a blank canvas rife for customizing in pretty fundamental ways. So I can absolutely imagine tinkering trying to squeeze more batteries or range or something.
I know first hand Rivian has done a lot of testing but even with the places and people they leaned on they can't have anticipated every use case so there's bound to be things unknown owners will eventually want to try.
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3rdGen4R
Hard Core 4+
You mean what customers have been trashed by Tesla?
Here is one of many examples of what Tesla does to people.
Here is Tesla turning off a vehicle tha was salvage.
Tesla fights back against owners hacking their cars to unlock performance boost
Tesla is starting to fight back against owners who are hacking their cars to unlock a performance boost that the...
electrek.co
And this:
And you can go on and on with the fact you can’t buy replacement parts for your Tesla from Tesla directly.
The Rivian will void the warranty the minute you do something that changes a mechanical part and it doesn’t look like they will open up parts to customers either.
These companies take away ownership of the vehicle from the owner of the vehicle and license the features it kind of a joke.
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mcgaskins
Rising Sun Member
I can attest to the fact people modify new or near 4x4s as I took our 2016 LC to Moab in March 2018 days after I bought it and added a lift, sliders and tires...and more than one person thought I was crazy taking it on Metal Masher and Wipeout Hill to break it in
Something to keep in mind with an EV is there are far fewer things you need to modify:
You don't need: a snorkel because there is no internal combustion engine
You don't need: lockers or gears because there is no differential and instead you have instant MEGA torque along with torque vectoring and lightning fast traction control
You don't need: tcase gears because there is no mechanical link front to rear (I'd argue almost no one adds aftermarket tcase gears for vehicles made in the last decade and almost certainly won't be available for future vehicles)
You don't need: (in the case of a Rivian) a lift kit because it has air suspension with over 6" of travel and 15" of ground clearance in the highest mode which is several inches higher than any other stock and 3.5" more than a 200 on 35s
The concept of a long range fuel tank is interesting, but I would argue the vast majority of vehicles you see on the trail do not have long range fuel tanks. I personally am not crazy about them because it seems they all need some custom work and massaging to get them to work properly on modern vehicles, and it adds a potential failure point especially with evap, emissions, and check engine lights - which in modern vehicles can put the whole truck into limp mode and disable the ability to put it in/out of 4 low like the 200 series.
Regarding range off road, something to consider is that an ICE vehicle loses energy any time braking occurs, but an EV can actually add energy back into the battery pack via regenerative braking instead of that energy getting lost via mechanical braking or engine braking. I can share from first hand experience coming down steep grades like switchbacks adds miles of charge back into the battery while also making it much easier to drive because your feet aren't dancing between the pedals. As an enthusiast, I was honestly worried about range off road. And then I did trip after trip off road in an EV, and I ended up at times being more concerned about finding gas for the 200 than an EV charger.
3rdGen4R
Hard Core 4+
We get it, you think there is no reason to modify. Why should that take away from modifications.I can attest to the fact people modify new or near 4x4s as I took our 2016 LC to Moab in March 2018 days after I bought it and added a lift, sliders and tires...and more than one person thought I was crazy taking it on Metal Masher and Wipeout Hill to break it in
Something to keep in mind with an EV is there are far fewer things you need to modify:
You don't need: a snorkel because there is no internal combustion engine
You don't need: lockers or gears because there is no differential and instead you have instant MEGA torque along with torque vectoring and lightning fast traction control
You don't need: tcase gears because there is no mechanical link front to rear (I'd argue almost no one adds aftermarket tcase gears for vehicles made in the last decade and almost certainly won't be available for future vehicles)
You don't need: (in the case of a Rivian) a lift kit because it has air suspension with over 6" of travel and 15" of ground clearance in the highest mode which is several inches higher than any other stock and 3.5" more than a 200 on 35s
The concept of a long range fuel tank is interesting, but I would argue the vast majority of vehicles you see on the trail do not have long range fuel tanks. I personally am not crazy about them because it seems they all need some custom work and massaging to get them to work properly on modern vehicles, and it adds a potential failure point especially with evap, emissions, and check engine lights - which in modern vehicles can put the whole truck into limp mode and disable the ability to put it in/out of 4 low like the 200 series.
Regarding range off road, something to consider is that an ICE vehicle loses energy any time braking occurs, but an EV can actually add energy back into the battery pack via regenerative braking instead of that energy getting lost via mechanical braking or engine braking. I can share from first hand experience coming down steep grades like switchbacks adds miles of charge back into the battery while also making it much easier to drive because your feet aren't dancing between the pedals. As an enthusiast, I was honestly worried about range off road. And then I did trip after trip off road in an EV, and I ended up at times being more concerned about finding gas for the 200 than an EV charger.
What if you add sliders, Will Rivian let your warranty stand? What if you add armor, is that ok?
If you pay for auto pilot and sell your vehicle, should they be allowed to just turn it off?
What if you add bigger tires than they suggest, will they let you modify the computer so you can have the correct range and mph indicated reading?
There are always reasons people want to do something with what they own that a company wasn’t expecting, should they be allowed to do that?
Sorry, but the EV market takes away ownership and before anyone decides to buy one I wish they would consider this.
mcgaskins
Rising Sun Member
You mean what customers have been trashed by Tesla?
Here is one of many examples of what Tesla does to people.
Here is Tesla turning off a vehicle tha was salvage.
Tesla fights back against owners hacking their cars to unlock performance boost
Tesla is starting to fight back against owners who are hacking their cars to unlock a performance boost that the...
And this:
And you can go on and on with the fact you can’t buy replacement parts for your Tesla from Tesla directly.
The Rivian will void the warranty the minute you do something that changes a mechanical part and it doesn’t look like they will open up parts to customers either.
These companies take away ownership of the vehicle from the owner of the vehicle and license the features it kind of a joke.
I was getting to your points Philip
Your original point was that the end customer is not allowed to modify their vehicle at all, but that is simply not supported by the facts. The Tesla stories which you linked do not generally talk about private owners modifying their vehicles, but one example talks about Tesla not wanting people to use salvaged vehicles at extremely high voltage charging sites. I think it's obvious what the concern here is - if you have a car that has been totaled and someone patches it back together and goes to charge at 250kW at a public station surrounded by people, property, and equipment, bad things can happen. You can still charge at home and many other places however, so for most people in most applications this still works just fine. But Tesla has the right to not allow potentially dangerous vehicles that have been declared as previously salvaged to charge at their sites. Another example is that Tesla owners feel they should be able to "hack" their cars to unlock a performance boost - but what OEM allows the end consumer to hack into the ECU to boost performance without voiding the warranty? It doesn't happen. There are a lot of turbo cars on the market where you can boost performance with a piggyback tuner or ECU flash, but the OEMs put software in place to detect these changes and will definitely void your warranty if they find out. That's simply the way modern cars work regardless of manufacturer or fuel type, and by modern I mean early to mid 2000s through current. Even the 200 isn't all that modern considering it was released in 2008, and you absolutely cannot hack the ECU without Toyota voiding your warranty for anything engine related.
When did I say there was no reason to modify? All I said is some typical points people want to modify their vehicles are totally inapplicable here - you can't add differential gears to something without a differential. You can't add tcase gears to something without a tcase. One of the main reasons for these modifications is power - a 3rd gen 4runner has roughly 180hp (a supercharged version with all the mods maybe 250hp) and a 200 series has under 400hp. Those figures are not even at the wheels at elevation which we all know takes a massive chunk of that power away, but the Rivian has over 800hp and over 900lb ft of torque. Multiplying torque at the wheels is far more important with ICE vehicles via gearing because that fairly anemic power has to go from the engine through the transmission to the transfer case to the driveshafts to the differentials to the axles to the wheels. I'm not a mechanic so I'm sure I missed a few places where losses occur in there, but an EV simply has an electronic motor with a half shaft going straight to the wheel. You just don't need the same level of mechanical complexity like gears and lockers to affect the same type of performance.
Beyond powertrain modifications, why would you think your warranty would be voided if you added sliders or armor? It's just simply untrue and unfounded. I've seen mention of "you don't own your EV if you can't modify every aspect of it" a few times lately on this forum, but it's ignoring the fact there are many systems in traditional vehicles you can't modify without voiding the warranty on that part. I absolutely love to modify vehicles and intend to modify my Rivian when it gets here, but I certainly won't modifying in a way where I think I'm smarter or more clever than some of the smartest engineers on the planet who created a vehicle that can accelerate like a million+ dollar supercar and immediately go wheeling like a Wrangler Rubicon or a TRD Pro 4runner.
The future is bright, but there is a lot to like in old vehicles too. Right now we have a 2002 Sprinter with 225k miles running on diesel, a 2008 Land Cruiser with 193k miles, and a 2013 Land Cruiser with 112k miles. I have hard time even thinking about parting with any of them because I love them so much. But when I get in a Rivian and feel my cheeks get smashed back into my ears when I floor it on the tarmac and then turn onto a trail and hear nothing but the crunch of rocks under the tires and the streams trickling nearby I can't help but roll the windows down and enjoy the peace and quiet.
J1000
Rising Sun Member
@mcgaskins doesn't Rivian specifically disallow different tires than stock?
And don't worry @3rdGen4R , it doesn't matter if your car is EV or ICE in a couple years, it can be remotely turned off on you. Black Mirror was the trailer for real life:
hothardware.com
"One of the most concerning things we've heard so far is the revelation that this "infrastructure" bill includes a measure mandating vehicle backdoor kill-switches in every car by 2026. The clause is intended to increase vehicle safety by "passively monitoring the performance of a driver of a motor vehicle to accurately identify whether that driver may be impaired," and if that sentence doesn't make your hair stand on end, you're not thinking about the implications."
And don't worry @3rdGen4R , it doesn't matter if your car is EV or ICE in a couple years, it can be remotely turned off on you. Black Mirror was the trailer for real life:
Buried In Biden's Infrastructure Bill Is A Mandatory Backdoor Kill Switch For Your Car
Massive infrastructure bill mandates vehicular tech that is a grievous overstep of government authority.
"One of the most concerning things we've heard so far is the revelation that this "infrastructure" bill includes a measure mandating vehicle backdoor kill-switches in every car by 2026. The clause is intended to increase vehicle safety by "passively monitoring the performance of a driver of a motor vehicle to accurately identify whether that driver may be impaired," and if that sentence doesn't make your hair stand on end, you're not thinking about the implications."
mcgaskins
Rising Sun Member
No that is incorrect information - please cite a source that says Rivian will not allow different tires than stock.
And don't worry @3rdGen4R , it doesn't matter if your car is EV or ICE in a couple years, it can be remotely turned off on you. Black Mirror was the trailer for real life:
Buried In Biden's Infrastructure Bill Is A Mandatory Backdoor Kill Switch For Your Car
Massive infrastructure bill mandates vehicular tech that is a grievous overstep of government authority.
"One of the most concerning things we've heard so far is the revelation that this "infrastructure" bill includes a measure mandating vehicle backdoor kill-switches in every car by 2026. The clause is intended to increase vehicle safety by "passively monitoring the performance of a driver of a motor vehicle to accurately identify whether that driver may be impaired," and if that sentence doesn't make your hair stand on end, you're not thinking about the implications."
This "backdoor kill switch" is very similar to things like reverse cameras, blind spot monitoring, rear cross traffic alert, automatic emergency braking - you know the things that save people's lives every day
If people think others should be able to drive a car when they're blacked out drunk, passed out from a medical condition, or otherwise incapacitated, I would question the motivation behind that rationale. This provision isn't a breathalyzer but an unobtrusive way to be sure people are conscious behind the wheel, and I for one would prefer fewer drunk and incapacitated people behind the wheel of a car.
J1000
Rising Sun Member
I was asking. Abs and cameras can't be activated or deactivated over the internet.No that is incorrect information - please cite a source that says Rivian will not allow different tires than stock.
This "backdoor kill switch" is very similar to things like reverse cameras, blind spot monitoring, rear cross traffic alert, automatic emergency braking - you know the things that save people's lives every day
Matt, not digging anything you said except that is why I have a Long Ranger tank in my 200 and can add 3 gas cans with my Slee Bumper. You said you didnt like them in the 200. Mine was an easy install with no issues
I am hopeful for a EV cruiser one day. I was interested in seeing what the 2024 GX460 Hybrid would be like, but an EV may be interesting as well
I like new technology and know it takes a while to catch on. Heck I remember when people were making fun of my Land Cruiser with a V8 stock engine
If I could go 400+ miles on a charge and be able to partially charge it off road with panels, that would be great
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
The kill switch they proposed is different than even the interlock installed upon DUI conviction. They want the ability to remotely stun your vehicle to render it inoperable.
Even ignoring the Big Brother aspects the potential surface area for vulnerabilities and bugs is itself a safety concern. What if you're off grid for a few days and it won't start from not being able to phone home? What if it decides the right time to glitch is when you're on the highway? What if your identity or personal info is compromised or malware is installed? Of course you can drill down logic and test margins but sometimes you have to decide the best option is to not use the feature in the first place.
One example I'd point to is Telsa's autopilot has bugs that has been causing their cars to crash into parked emergency vehicles. At night especially it appears the system can get confused by the intensity and frequency of the flashing lights.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/teslas-keep-crashing-emergency-vehicles/
In this case the system is arguably the opposite of saving lives compared to an alert human brain. Some of it is implicitly marketing this features as "self driving" where it is not, so the operator bears responsibility for believing the hype.
But this is not an old problem of early vehicles, it's currently ongoing and has caused the NHTSA to butt heads with Tesla, which apparently quietly pushed over-the-air upgrades instead of handling it like a safety recall. Regardless if it's blessed by some pencil pusher or not you'd like a transparent approach where the problem is identified, fixed and tested. That's the logical flow of engineering something.
Tesla acts like they're making cheap consumer goods where you just keep tweaking and updating until you get it right. That's an argument people had with SpaceX, too. Now no one will ever accuse the space agencies and the primes for being agile but the systematic design and testing approach is important to prevent critical failures. Disrupting the industry by making cars like you would MP3 players only works until bugs start to accumulate as you hit more corner cases with more hours of use, essentially making your customers beta testers. But rather than an app crashing it's your car actually crashing.
https://www.wbir.com/article/news/n...call/507-d831487d-581c-4983-b24f-6bdab6d175d3
mcgaskins
Rising Sun Member
I definitely see you as an early adopter and embracer of technology, and I think you will love the R1. I will gladly bring it by for you to take on a test spin, and when we go wheeling you can see how much fun it is too. The complete silence and lack of any vibration or binding when off road is a game changer, and it makes you feel more connected to nature. A couple of weeks ago I was on a sandy trail in the desert of SoCal and came around a bend and found a roadrunner running right down the middle of the trail, and because it didn't hear us, it just kept running for a while giving everyone in the truck a cool surprise.
3rdGen4R
Hard Core 4+
No that is incorrect information - please cite a source that says Rivian will not allow different tires than stock.
This "backdoor kill switch" is very similar to things like reverse cameras, blind spot monitoring, rear cross traffic alert, automatic emergency braking - you know the things that save people's lives every day
I love when people use the safety as the reason to stop ownership. The same idea has been used by years by Apple to stop people from being allowed to change a battery in there phone to stop ownership. Who owns the vehicle, who owns the right to do with it what you like? I’d prefer less people were killed by guns, should we ban guns as well, for the safety of society?
Matt, I appreciate that. It would be interesting to drive but will hold out until Toyota has something. I am sure the R1 is a great vehicle, but my cruiser is more than just the vehicle, it is the community that comes with it. This club, long term friends, Cruise Moab, LCDC, etc where an R1 would be out of place
Maybe that is snobbish, but its part of the overall calculus for me and why I haven't looked at some of thee nice Rubicon's that have come out in recent years as well.
I know Toyota eventually will have full EV vehicles. I know the GX460 in 2024 will be a Hybrid. My 2014 200 series still has only 87K miles on it. I was thinking I bought my 80 and 100 series at 100K miles and kept them for years. My 80 had 180K miles on it when I sold it and is still going d=strong from what I heard 11 years later. My 200 has a lot of life left in yet and will likely outlast me and there is no reason I need to make any changes in the next few years
The main reason to eventually upgrade is to stay in synch with getting Solar and Batteries for the house and be ready for the Zombie apocalypse I am kidding . . . . kind of
Maybe that is snobbish, but its part of the overall calculus for me and why I haven't looked at some of thee nice Rubicon's that have come out in recent years as well.
I know Toyota eventually will have full EV vehicles. I know the GX460 in 2024 will be a Hybrid. My 2014 200 series still has only 87K miles on it. I was thinking I bought my 80 and 100 series at 100K miles and kept them for years. My 80 had 180K miles on it when I sold it and is still going d=strong from what I heard 11 years later. My 200 has a lot of life left in yet and will likely outlast me and there is no reason I need to make any changes in the next few years
The main reason to eventually upgrade is to stay in synch with getting Solar and Batteries for the house and be ready for the Zombie apocalypse
I am kidding . . . . kind of
Philip. I changed a battery in an iphone recently for my in-laws and not via apple with no issues so not sure if that is correct. Not throwing rocks, just saying I didnt have a problem