Well, it was bound to happen...... Harbor Freight soft shackles

[J Kimmel]

Absolutely

That’s why I said if you’re doing the pulling and you don’t like what the guy has then get your own stuff out.

I don’t use cable. I’m not interested in losing limbs. Between kinetic straps soft shackles and decent rope (even junk rope will work) we’ll get it out or upright and if something breaks it just falls to the ground.

Pulling out huge military equipment or pulling people out for a living is an entirely different conversation than pulling a stuck vehicle out on a trail.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I don’t use cable. I’m not interested in losing limbs. Between kinetic straps soft shackles and decent rope (even junk rope will work) we’ll get it out or upright and if something breaks it just falls to the ground.

Did you watch that Mad Matt video Ross linked? Kinetic ropes and straps don't just fall to the ground.

Synthetic rope sometimes does, sometimes doesn't fall to the ground. It is safer than steel rope, much less risk of slicing someone in half and all.

Pulling out huge military equipment or pulling people out for a living is an entirely different conversation than pulling a stuck vehicle out on a trail.

Why do you think that? The laws of physics or Murphy aren't any different.

 

[J Kimmel]

Well there’s a few things
I’ve seen rope break, and every one of them fell to the ground. Obviously they can snap, they’re not cutting someone in half like a cable break
Second, when winching a vehicle nothing happens without everyone clearing. If something breaks and flings, no one is there. That’s winching 101
Third, big equipment, yes it’s the same laws of physics but it’s dramatically larger in scale. I wouldn’t run a rope if I’m pulling heavy objects day in day out.
Things can definitely happen but in 20+ years of doing this I’m confident in my ability, and anyone who isn’t sure is more than welcome to take my passenger seat for a day and see how we approach it.
I’ll even give you a cold beer while you hold my HF shackle.

 

[J Kimmel]

I just watched the video, that’s usually what it looks like when a rope breaks. It’s not taking a limb with it

 

[ScaldedDog]

I have a couple of these from 4WP, as there is no way I was going to pay the Factor55 price. Are mine any better than the HF ones because they are from a 4WD store? I highly doubt it.

Mark

 

[Inukshuk]

All this is great for the discussion on gear at the April 6th Rising Sun Jack-it Night meeting.

Details TBD

 

[nakman]

So in that video of the Jeep whose winch line broke, why did it break?

1. was already damaged
2. sudden new damage from the fairlead
3. was under rated

 

[krice118]

https://www.rope.com/products/copy-of-1-4mini-gator-jaw-shackle $35 and stout / reputable company.....

 

[DaveInDenver]

So in that video of the Jeep whose winch line broke, why did it break?

1. was already damaged
2. sudden new damage from the fairlead
3. was under rated

The description says:

FACTOR 55
4.09K subscribers

TBT to synthetic rope breakage. MYTH: Synthetic winch rope falls to the ground when it breaks. Well, the truth is, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. This video was sent to us from our friend and GenRight Off Road Ambassador Jeff Perkins. In this particular case, the synthetic winch rope broke suddenly without warning and the recoil was significant. Sure, there is less energy stored when compared to a steel cable, but you still would not want get hit with this rope.

The mode of synthetic winch rope failure is uncertain. At times it can fail by sequential strand failures. In a sequential failure, as each one of the individual strand fails, a small portion of the overall stored energy is released from the system. As this type of failure mode continues, energy is released in steps over time until there is little energy stored in the system and the final strand finally fails and the rope drops to the ground. The problem is that there is no way to predict that this mode of rope failure will occur versus a more dangerous sudden catastrophic rope failure.

A sudden winch rope failure is quite possible, especially if the winch line is either shock loaded, or in this case the rope may have been overstressed by an undersized corner radius on the fairlead, or the rope possibly contacted a small burr on the fairlead. Regardless of the cause, it’s important to play it safe and plan for the sudden failure and recoil of the rope. What’s the take away here? Be cautious and don’t count on a sequential rope fiber failure, use a rope damper, and stay away from the recoil danger zone.

So do any of you have any experience with winch rope failure? Sequential or sudden?

Engineering Facts Matter
​

 

[J Kimmel]

Yes Dave I have experience with ropes breaking. I’ve broken mine a few times and I’ve seen others break a few times. They’re either frayed or they rubbed something wrong under load. In every instance we’ve tied it back up and pulled the vehicle out. It rarely just “drops to the ground,” it generally recoils. It doesn’t recoil with the force of a cable that can take limbs.
We don’t ever have anyone standing around the danger zone when winching but it’s monumentally safer than cable when it let’s go.
Cable let’s go and you’re making sure no one is dead or bleeding out. Rope breaks and you’re irritated because you’re still stuck waiting for someone to re-tie it.

 

[DaveInDenver]

That's exactly what I said. Synthetic winch rope is definitely safer. Just using it doesn't mean zero risk. You're still dealing with multiple tons of force and the mode of failure can still be instantaneous.

Those kinetic straps and ropes aren't like winch line just by the fact they're also not steel. Using them is storing and releasing a lot of energy, so they need at least as much caution as steel winch line. Technically speaking we're misusing nylon straps and rope intentionally. The way they're sized and rated was originally intended not to stretch at all.

I know we're not seeing eye-to-eye here. I'm silly over cautious, probably to the point of paralysis by analysis, about this. But we're both just being anecdotal and neither of us has actually been involved in a serious 4WD injury.

Why I just can't let it go because the crux of your argument is the same as most people, which is "You nerds, what do you know? I haven't been hurt so I must be safe." Then when something does fail the refrain is "You nerds didn't warn me!" I know you're not personally being a yahoo about it and are trying to be safe, though.

But there's a lot of people that follow what is said on forums like this. So what data I've given is wrong? I'm just interpreting stuff like the ASME recommendations, which lots of companies like Factor55 also do. It's part of the reason their junk is so expensive. Following use, design and manufacturing standards ain't cheap.

 

[J Kimmel]

Not sure where the nerds part comes from. I haven’t and won’t call anyone here names. We’re all on the same team. Anyhow, experience or not, no one stands in the danger zone. That’s a rule. So when it breaks, it doesn’t go near anyone, because no one is there. There’s no denying physics as far as recoil, there’s also no denying physics, that the recoil from a rope isn’t taking off a limb like a cable.
Plenty of anecdotal experiences to corroborate it as well.
You can be as careful as you want to and that’s great. I’m going to hook a soft shackle onto a winch point, and use my winch like I’ve done hundreds of times. If it breaks I’ll tie it up, and reattach it.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Not sure where the nerds part comes from. I haven’t and won’t call anyone here names. We’re all on the same team. Anyhow, experience or not, no one stands in the danger zone. That’s a rule. So when it breaks, it doesn’t go near anyone, because no one is there. There’s no denying physics as far as recoil, there’s also no denying physics, that the recoil from a rope isn’t taking off a limb like a cable.
Plenty of anecdotal experiences to corroborate it as well.
You can be as careful as you want to and that’s great. I’m going to hook a soft shackle onto a winch point, and use my winch like I’ve done hundreds of times. If it breaks I’ll tie it up, and reattach it.

I said the nerd thing, just meaning sometimes I get the feeling no one wants to bother with the numerical details of loads and forces.

One my first jobs after engineering school the production manager had a sign on his office door that read "At some point you have to shoot the engineer and build it anyway."

Thought it kind of both offensive and reality check.