J Kimmel
Hard Core 4+
Lofty goals but are you going to be picky when you’re upside down?
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Well, it was bound to happen...... Harbor Freight soft shackles
- Thread starter BritKLR
- Start date
me? yes, if its my vehicle/body the line is going to snap into.
J Kimmel
Hard Core 4+
Why is anyone in the line of danger when righting a vehicle?
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Amazing they thought they could get away with that and with the Internet the risk to your business sales. But I bet it hasn't made any difference. It's all about the lowest price and color matching to your bumper.
Why don't you just come out and state your problem with me?
AlpineAccess
Hard Core 4+
@Inukshuk did the Rhino guys respond at all to their certs being falsified? Occasionally I've seen where a company has gone to a contract manufacturer for a product and the manufacturer has provided false certifications; but I haven't seen it where agents of the retail company put their own names and signatures on a fake document.
It does seem like a very big risk to take. I have worked on projects in the past with clients who found competitors were misappropriating test results and/or falsifying certifications. Mostly with things like ingestible supplements, similar to recovery gear in some ways as there are real consequences to this data being false. The lab that conducted the testing (or had docs falsified) was informed, they ordered samples from the company in question and did another round of testing (on behalf of my client) and after proving their original test was accurate and these guys were blatantly misrepresenting the product (and certifications) were more than happy to pursue the offender. Apparently many of these labs have contracts which stipulate their results are their results, and manipulating or falsifying them of course causes damage to their credibility/reputation as a certifying body. I got the impression that litigating was a key part of their business.
It does seem like a very big risk to take. I have worked on projects in the past with clients who found competitors were misappropriating test results and/or falsifying certifications. Mostly with things like ingestible supplements, similar to recovery gear in some ways as there are real consequences to this data being false. The lab that conducted the testing (or had docs falsified) was informed, they ordered samples from the company in question and did another round of testing (on behalf of my client) and after proving their original test was accurate and these guys were blatantly misrepresenting the product (and certifications) were more than happy to pursue the offender. Apparently many of these labs have contracts which stipulate their results are their results, and manipulating or falsifying them of course causes damage to their credibility/reputation as a certifying body. I got the impression that litigating was a key part of their business.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
That's an interesting take on it. Like I say, I have almost zero knowledge about Rhino but they seems to be rebranding things instead of an in-house process.
That makes them similar to two-way radio companies, where the name on the outside is becoming less important since the guts are becoming more likely from a single source. And since the FCC process for legally selling a radio in the U.S. is largely self-policed by the manufacturers as long as they use accredited labs the FCC usually only looks into things based on a complaint. So it's relatively easy to submit legitimate appearing fake documents for approvals that no one's checking up on until a competitor notices or an issue arises.
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it before but just my becoming even less valuable due to inflation $0.02 that you kind of have to trust the big names - Crosby, Van Beest, Gunnebo, Columbus-McKinnon (CM) or Campbell - for hardware and even then you have to be wary of counterfeits and know the source and distributor.
Soft rigging is a tougher one because there's no recognized standard per se for things like knotted soft shackles. The problem is testing soft shackles, they can't really be proof tested to a serial number like steel shackles or sewn slings. An important part of proof testing is having a set of deterministic values to judge pass or fail. They will take a diameter of the steel, measure the opening for parallel, etc. A soft shackle can be tested for breaking and then you can say yours is like it by similarity, which is fine. Most of us aren't using serialize shackles anyway so even our steel shackles aren't individually tested necessarily. But they could. A shackle coming from a Crosby forge is the same either way. Just the ones they provide documentation have a serial number etched on their pin.
There are standards for cargo straps (our straps and ropes will have a label that's loosely related to how they're rated for cargo lifting) and winch line (the marine industry has all kinds of standards here) you can leverage. So there brands (say like Dyneema from a Marlow, Sampson, etc.) to look for and for a soft shackle you then need to trust the person making the knots. That could be you. I'd personally trust one you tie yourself even if you're learning, if for no other reason than it's a chain of custody. You bought rope from a known source and can say it's never been abused with excessive heat or chemicals or whatever.
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J Kimmel
Hard Core 4+
Lol
I don’t have a problem with anyone. I think it’s noble to only buy American. I’m just trying to figure out what’s so bad about this stuff. No one’s dying or losing limbs unless they’re using their equipment incredibly incorrectly, at which point the manufacturer location is irrelevant.
I use Masterpull on mine. I’d say it’s pretty high quality…and I’ve broken it.
Inukshuk
Rising Sun Member
@AlpineAccess and @DaveInDenver
Rhino never responded. I tried a few times.
The lab they falsified the test from specialized in medical disinfectant testing and tested zero straps and rigging products.
The new lab Rhino uses also never repolied to me, but at least their website says they test straps and rigging products.
Rhino never responded. I tried a few times.
The lab they falsified the test from specialized in medical disinfectant testing and tested zero straps and rigging products.
The new lab Rhino uses also never repolied to me, but at least their website says they test straps and rigging products.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
@J Kimmel, just my take but it's not a Buy American thing so much as buying something known. There are factories all over the world. There's at least one globally recognized Chinese-made brand called Tiger making stuff for lifting and shipping.
Your point about it not being a problem is fair. It's always been a question of just shear mass. When you're talking about a 4.75 ton working load shackle a "good" one can be proof tested to 2xWLL, e.g. 9.5 tons, and will have at least a 5xWLL design margin, e.g. 23.75 ton minimum breaking.
But that's only because this stuff is used in critical things, mainly lifting stuff overhead. You want a lot of excess capacity to be safe for that.
It's arbitrary that we call them 4.75 tons for vehicle recovery from a strength of material standpoint since there's no requirement to follow that. Still, there are people where WLL is still absolute. Tow truck drivers, for example.
To my mind practically is that even a cheap shackle made from crap steel is probably plenty strong. But not likely 23.75 tons safe. Exactly how much is anyone's guess.
All I can do is know that ARB tested my front attachment point to 9,500 lbs and using a 3/4" pin shackle is the same WLL of 9,500 lbs. Just no second guessing, all the numbers match.
Then I know my winch line, strap or rope will have values. In those cases they're around or only slightly above the WLL and have breaking lower than 5x WLL of the shackle. That means they will give up long before the steel parts. Which is fine, they store less energy. That was a big factor in going to a synthetic winch line for me but avoiding soft shackles at the ends. I do not want the connections on either end breaking but all the rigging in between might. I'll use a soft shackle in the middle and the only significant non-soft thing is my thimble on the end of the winch line. It's a calculated risk using a hunk of aluminum there.
I'm not a fan of using soft shackles at the vehicle end but if all the other parts are synthetic rope and stuff then I'm also not going to argue against doing that. I don't see any reason not to trust hard rigging that's known quality and used within its rating, so putting in known weak points is unnecessary IMO. But I'm also willing to listen to an argument that if you do not know the rating of your connection point then using a soft shackle as a fuse might be useful. I'd still suggest the issue is using unrated (or unrate-able) rigging, though eventually you almost always find that to be the case with vehicles. Toyota is no different than anyone else in not putting a "max load" statement on their tow points and only a few aftermarket companies have the resources to design and test their recovery points.
The same argument is applied to a lot of what we do. How strong is strong enough for axles or bumpers or anything? The whatever is fine until it's not. So I suppose you have to prioritize where you worry and don't, what you can control and what you can't.
Your point about it not being a problem is fair. It's always been a question of just shear mass. When you're talking about a 4.75 ton working load shackle a "good" one can be proof tested to 2xWLL, e.g. 9.5 tons, and will have at least a 5xWLL design margin, e.g. 23.75 ton minimum breaking.
But that's only because this stuff is used in critical things, mainly lifting stuff overhead. You want a lot of excess capacity to be safe for that.
It's arbitrary that we call them 4.75 tons for vehicle recovery from a strength of material standpoint since there's no requirement to follow that. Still, there are people where WLL is still absolute. Tow truck drivers, for example.
To my mind practically is that even a cheap shackle made from crap steel is probably plenty strong. But not likely 23.75 tons safe. Exactly how much is anyone's guess.
All I can do is know that ARB tested my front attachment point to 9,500 lbs and using a 3/4" pin shackle is the same WLL of 9,500 lbs. Just no second guessing, all the numbers match.
Then I know my winch line, strap or rope will have values. In those cases they're around or only slightly above the WLL and have breaking lower than 5x WLL of the shackle. That means they will give up long before the steel parts. Which is fine, they store less energy. That was a big factor in going to a synthetic winch line for me but avoiding soft shackles at the ends. I do not want the connections on either end breaking but all the rigging in between might. I'll use a soft shackle in the middle and the only significant non-soft thing is my thimble on the end of the winch line. It's a calculated risk using a hunk of aluminum there.
I'm not a fan of using soft shackles at the vehicle end but if all the other parts are synthetic rope and stuff then I'm also not going to argue against doing that. I don't see any reason not to trust hard rigging that's known quality and used within its rating, so putting in known weak points is unnecessary IMO. But I'm also willing to listen to an argument that if you do not know the rating of your connection point then using a soft shackle as a fuse might be useful. I'd still suggest the issue is using unrated (or unrate-able) rigging, though eventually you almost always find that to be the case with vehicles. Toyota is no different than anyone else in not putting a "max load" statement on their tow points and only a few aftermarket companies have the resources to design and test their recovery points.
The same argument is applied to a lot of what we do. How strong is strong enough for axles or bumpers or anything? The whatever is fine until it's not. So I suppose you have to prioritize where you worry and don't, what you can control and what you can't.
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fyffer
Rising Sun Member
To each their own, however. When I totaled my previous 60 body (Body swapped), I did not personally care other than getting it upright with the gear I had and still have. Just very happy to get and drive it back home with a few mods.
Kept all persons involved out of harms way, I now know, I forgot to put a damper on the recovery line. So that won't happen again. But knowing the weakest link is properly one of the most important factor, as I understand it. But I'm pretty new at this.
Read Inukshuk response to gear Certification, shoot I guess I will get trashed on Bill Burkes recovery training in March.
Have a great day.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Nope, no one's going to do any trashing. But you will get all learnt up in thinking about what the numbers all mean in the chain of connections. Bill's got a lot of cred built up way back to getting unstuck really heavy iron for the U.S. Army and going on from there.I guess I will get trashed on Bill Burkes recovery training in March.
ccslider
Hard Core 4+
It's so funny how everyone gets their panties in a wad over harbor freight. If you don't like them or the products then who really cares either way. Don't buy or use them, you are the superior being.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Totally true. Good to make informed decisions, though?
Devil's advocate, would be OK for the driver at the other end of the strap to say "no" to hooking up to Harbor Freight (or Rhino or whatever) gear? It's one thing to decide to use a HF winch or socket yourself instead of Warn or Snap-On and maybe different when there's other drivers and observers involved?
Inukshuk
Rising Sun Member
I'll be gentle as always.I now know, I forgot to put a damper on the recovery line. .....
Read Inukshuk response to gear Certification, shoot I guess I will get trashed on Bill Burkes recovery training in March.
Winch dampers are useless to dampen. They are a nice visual that there is a line there.
Sure we will!
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I just mean the ribbing is friendly and informative.Sure we will!
J Kimmel
Hard Core 4+
Of course it’s ok to say no. If you don’t want help that’s ok, I can move on. I would assume if someone refused to hook up to you because you have a HF soft shackle, that the person would be equipped with something better otherwise what’s the point of having a winch and nothing to go with it?
I have a couple of shackles from them, and now I am starting to regret that.
RDub
Trail Ready
I found this to be interesting. Snatch strap not a synthetic winch line, but air dampers are discussed and tested.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
I was thinking the other way, you're stuck and need the tug. I'd try to offer as much help as possible but I usually expect the stuck person to have their own gear ready or attached. I mean, yeah, my stuff is available if they don't have anything, I'll of course use it as necessary. I'm not willingly going leave anyone in a lurch. Heck yeah, I'm still the person who stops even on the highway if someone's got their hood up.
So it's a hypothetical question. If I happen on someone stuck on the trail and they hand me a Harbor Freight soft shackle connected to whatever I'm going to make an honest assessment in my head. I might not make the pull or I might offer to use some of my stuff. I dunno. But the point being here that if *your* HF shackle fails it could be the hole is put into *my* skull.
In complete honesty what I really worry about is attachments to trucks. There's some really sketchy shit out there. Shackle clevises that are barely better than cosmetic. That's really hard to deal with. You can throw a bag with sand it in over a questionable shackle to damp it but that's not going to have the mass to resist if a chunk of someone's bumper pulls off. OTOH something like that is also not going to fly nearly as far before diving into the dirt.
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