• RS MAY CLUB MEETING
    Hi Guest: Our monthly RS meeting on Wed. May 1st will be held at the Rooney Sports Complex. Details and directions are here. Early start time: 7:00 pm. to take advantage of daylight. We'll be talking ColoYota Expo and Cruise Moab.
    If you are eligible for club membership, please fill out an application in advance of the meeting and bring it with you.

Using GAIA on a tablet off the grid

Hulk

RS Webmaster
Staff member
Moderator
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
16,484
Location
Centennial
Years ago, I ran GAIA on a 2nd gen iPad (circa 2011) that had mobile service (not just wifi). The GPS seemed to function even when the mobile service would not connect.

Now I'd like to update my setup for GAIA so I can use it to run trails, upload waypoints, etc. I have a first gen, wifi-only iPad Pro (circa 2016) that still works pretty well. I can connect it via a personal hotspot to my iPhone and it works fine around town when I have 5G mobile service connected on my iPhone.

Question:
You guys who have used GAIA to track your location when you are completely off the grid (no mobile coverage). Do you have a tablet that is getting GPS location info directly or are you getting this info from your smartphone, connected to your tablet?

I'm trying to determine if I have everything I need with my iPhone 13 + iPad Pro, or if I need to buy a tablet that receives GPS data directly... or something else.
 

3rdGen4R

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,511
Location
Littleton, CO
Years ago, I ran GAIA on a 2nd gen iPad (circa 2011) that had mobile service (not just wifi). The GPS seemed to function even when the mobile service would not connect.

Now I'd like to update my setup for GAIA so I can use it to run trails, upload waypoints, etc. I have a first gen, wifi-only iPad Pro (circa 2016) that still works pretty well. I can connect it via a personal hotspot to my iPhone and it works fine around town when I have 5G mobile service connected on my iPhone.

Question:
You guys who have used GAIA to track your location when you are completely off the grid (no mobile coverage). Do you have a tablet that is getting GPS location info directly or are you getting this info from your smartphone, connected to your tablet?

I'm trying to determine if I have everything I need with my iPhone 13 + iPad Pro, or if I need to buy a tablet that receives GPS data directly... or something else.
You can do the non Wi-Fi on a apple iPad if you are running a Garmin Inreach. But if you do not get the cellular capable ipad it won’t have a GPS chip. I’m not sure if you can tether you GPS from your phone to your tablet, but I want to say that you can’t.

This is what makes me angry with apple is no external storage, and you have to get a cellular capable ipad for GPS services. So add a extra $200 on any ipad because you’ll probably need both storage and a GPS.
 

Pz10420

Trail Ready
Joined
Jun 21, 2020
Messages
391
I looked into this a couple of years ago with my wifi only ipad and I don't think it was possible. I do vaguely remember reading about some way you can add an external gps antenna but it didnt seem worth the money. I did end up switching from being a longtime iphone user to getting a galaxy zfold so you kind of get the best of both worlds with a phone and tablet in one. The only thing that kind of sucks now is I dont really use my alpine headunits built in android auto, because it limits the use of the phone while hooked up. I instead have a tablet mount for my phone and just tether it to the headunit using bluetooth.
 

MountainGoat

Club Treasurer
Staff member
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jul 4, 2008
Messages
3,072
Location
Evergreen, CO
Yeah, I used to use a bluetooth GPS puck with my wifi only ipad to run Gaia. It worked really good, but it was kind of a pain having another device to keep track of and keep charged up. I just went back to my iphone eventually. The trade off of smaller display size for greater simplicity was worth it to me. I still have the puck around here somewhere if you want to try it, Matt.
 

fyffer

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
458
Location
Trinidad, CO
Can it be connected via HAM radio and APRS? APRS-FI?
Tethering iPhone to an iPad with a none used Cell capable one?

I have made a few futile attempts but can't wrap my head around it.
 

Lastresort576

Hard Core 4+
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
588
Location
Westminster
When I ran the rimrocker trail late september there was obviously zero cell service. I downloaded all the maps and trails to my ipad for the entire state of CO&UT. I did this for GAIA and TrailsOffroad. I ended up solely using the trailsoffroad ap with its offline maps/waypoint functions. It worked flawlessly. But I was also comforting to know I had all of the gaia maps as a backup just incase i got lost(no room for getting lost with a 4yr old on the trip with just me).

oh when I was testing everything out before the trip, I was able to have trailsoffroad displayed on the ipad, and gaia showing up on my radio via apple car play. it was cool that I could do that, but a bit redundant.
 

Hulk

RS Webmaster
Staff member
Moderator
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
16,484
Location
Centennial
Yeah, I used to use a bluetooth GPS puck with my wifi only ipad to run Gaia. It worked really good, but it was kind of a pain having another device to keep track of and keep charged up. I still have the puck around here somewhere if you want to try it, Matt.
I might take you up on that, Dan. I'm first going to see if the iPhone will continue to send GPS info to my iPad when there is no mobile connectivity. I know the GPS continues to work for the iPhone when it's off the grid, I just don't know if it will continue to share the info with my iPad or if the iPad will continue to receive it.
 

Romer

RS Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
10,032
Location
Centennial, Colorado
My Samsung Tablet did it well. I no longer use it as I upgraded my Head unit to a tesla style. These tablets are fairly inexpensive



Samsung Tablet
GPS.JPG


Tesla style Head Unit
IMG_0281.jpg
IMG_0282.jpg
 

rover67

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
9,322
Location
Boulder, Co
It really chaps me to have to buy a cellular iPad for an extra $200 just to get gps onboard
Get an android tablet for $200 total, thats what I did. Much like what Romer is sharing. GPS onboard and relatively inexpensive.

Matt, benifit to the GPS pucks is they can be more accurate. It worth a try as what I've read (and looks like Dan corroborates) is that they work well. You also already have an ipad so it seems liek areasonably affordable option rather than a new tablet altogether.

Also it seems like even cheaper older iPads run better than the cheaper new android tablets.
 

rover67

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
9,322
Location
Boulder, Co
then ya gotta pony up. they gotcha.
 

fyffer

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
458
Location
Trinidad, CO
So, what the heck is a "puck".
 

MountainGoat

Club Treasurer
Staff member
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jul 4, 2008
Messages
3,072
Location
Evergreen, CO
So, what the heck is a "puck".
It is a GPS only device that has to be connected to something that can utilize the location data it provides. About the size of a computer mouse roughly. No display or other function.
 

satchel

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
845
Location
Erie Co
Marco, what did you end up going with?
Get an android tablet for $200 total, thats what I did. Much like what Romer is sharing. GPS onboard and relatively inexpensive.

Matt, benifit to the GPS pucks is they can be more accurate. It worth a try as what I've read (and looks like Dan corroborates) is that they work well. You also already have an ipad so it seems liek areasonably affordable option rather than a new tablet altogether.

Also it seems like even cheaper older iPads run better than the cheaper new android tablets.
 

Jacket

RS Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
5,285
Location
Lafayette
Also it seems like even cheaper older iPads run better than the cheaper new android tablets.

Yea I agree. My refurb Samsung I got off ebay years ago is slow and map scrolling is problematic at times. Its glitchy and becoming less reliable. I'm sure if I bought a new one with more horsepower it would improve.

For Gaia specifically I think their iOS development and capability is better than Android. More features overall, and upgrades come sooner.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,072
Location
Grand Junction
So, what the heck is a "puck".
Puck is probably not the best word to use anymore. They used to look like a hockey puck but not as much anymore.

The basic premise, they are a GPS receiver that re-transmits via Bluetooth or WiFi so that devices without built-in GPS can get a position feed.



There's reasons why you would not have or perhaps even want built-in GPS. Cost is one of course.

Also these devices have a niche in that you can put the receiver in an optimal location and the device with the application can be where it's convenient. This is actually important when precision is needed.

For example I think pilots use them often due to this. They can put the "puck" where it gets a good view of the sky and can keep their tablets where they're easier to see and use. When using GPS for true navigation like that you can't have glitches. You can test this for yourself by watching your phone as you drive around. The little blue circle that pings is telling you accuracy. When you turn it sometimes will go from a dot to a big circle and when that happens you go from a few feet of accuracy to possibly many tens of feet. Which is fine if you're moving at 5 MPH, being off 10 feet is a nuisance and you show yourself on the sidewalk instead of the street. If you're moving at 500 MPH and you get a momentary drop in resolution you might jump off your course by a thousand feet before it corrects.

BTW, @Hulk, yes it's 100% accurate that for iPads and other Apple devices to have satellite GPS they must be cellular-capable. The Broadcom radio chip that receives GPS is integrated with the cellular modem. You do not have to activate cellular service but the device must have the chipset. Android phones generally use a different chipset.

In the case of 'Droid phones it's because it's cheaper to just include a feature you may not sell than to maintain two product lines. It's like when you buy a car and there's blank panels and wiring for options you didn't buy. Toyota builds one wiring harness for a car so the plugs are usually there behind the dash for fog lights even though you're a cheapskate. Apple and their suppliers for whatever reason made their design choices.

So anything termed "WiFi-only" with respect to Apple will only do position using their Location Services and won't work off grid where it can't see WiFi. That's where the puck comes in. It's feeding a satellite-based position into Apple's OS feature so your device doesn't know or care that's it off grid.

This, in case you're interested, is something Google started doing a long time ago and others have jumped into. Basically as they drove around doing Street View they were also checking everyone's WLAN access points and building a huge database that related RF fingerprints to geolocations. Since then it's expanded into all kinds of ways to fingerprint radios and collect data about them.

Yes, it's huge privacy hole that you've probably never known you're leaking.



 
Last edited:

rover67

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
9,322
Location
Boulder, Co
Marco, what did you end up going with?
I ended up with a 64gig 10” Samsung galaxy tab A7. Refurbished one was like $180 on Amazon. It runs ok but the resolution could be better. For what we use it for its perfect.
 

Hulk

RS Webmaster
Staff member
Moderator
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
16,484
Location
Centennial
@Mrs Hulk and I went out to Moab on the last weekend of January. We ran the first half of the 3D trail, which is mostly off-grid (no mobile service). Our iPhones with the Gaia app did fine on showing our position on the trail, regardless of whether our phones were connected to service or not.

My iPad didn't perform well off-grid. It was connected to the iPhone via personal hotspot. When we were cruising I-70 on the way to Moab, it seemed to get GPS position from my iPhone with no problem, updating almost as smoothly as the phone itself. But when we were off-grid, it mostly didn't update.

@MountainGoat, what GPS "puck" do you have? And how does it connect to your tablet? USB?
 

MountainGoat

Club Treasurer
Staff member
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jul 4, 2008
Messages
3,072
Location
Evergreen, CO
I will have to dig it out and let you know what it is. Pretty sure it connected with bluetooth.
 

Doughboy

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
608
Could learn how to use a paper map and compass 🧭 they don't need power, but they burn much easier than an iPad.
 

Hulk

RS Webmaster
Staff member
Moderator
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
16,484
Location
Centennial
Could learn how to use a paper map and compass 🧭 they don't need power, but they burn much easier than an iPad.

Sure dude, I grew up in Boy Scouts and spent the last 15 years as a leader. I can talk your ear off about map declination adjustments. However, I would like to take advantage of modern GPS technology, especially when running trails where there are multiple paths at every turn that all look equally legit and well worn, but only one is the actual trail.
 
Top