Them's fightin' words, son...
- Thread starter Hulk
- Start date
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Are the statistics up-to-date? What is the percentage of amateur operators now?
that's probably about right. But then take another survey once you are out on the trail, and that percentage is often over 50%. People who actually wheel a lot, and want to be able to communicate, choose Ham.
Perhaps we could just start recording that data... I led a Father's Day run this year- had 3 trucks, 3 licensed operators... 100%. I was on the Jenny Creek cleanup run, didn't hook up my CB as the group was more than 50% already on Ham. I will get a count on the 40's only run.. I don't have a CB in my 40.
Perhaps we could just start recording that data... I led a Father's Day run this year- had 3 trucks, 3 licensed operators... 100%. I was on the Jenny Creek cleanup run, didn't hook up my CB as the group was more than 50% already on Ham. I will get a count on the 40's only run.. I don't have a CB in my 40.
Rezarf
Hard Core 4+
I'll chime in, HAM is awesome but it makes any new comer feel even more "new" or unqualified to jump in and join a run if they don't have one... CB is really useful for anyone wheeling in Colorado as lots of other OHV folks are running them too.
I drank the koolaid bought the HAM, installed two mobile radios and probably have 2 hours for talk time in two years. I only use it with the club (and eclipse traffic)
I drank the koolaid bought the HAM, installed two mobile radios and probably have 2 hours for talk time in two years. I only use it with the club (and eclipse traffic)
40'a only run had 17 trucks- 4 Ham, 11 CB-only. 2 with no radio. As usual, the group on CB couldn't hear each other from one end of the group to the other.. while the leader, gunner, and a couple mid-gunners relied on clear 2m coms to lead the group.
I bet a "wagons-only" run would have a much higher percentage of ham radios installed.
Yeah, CB was real quiet. Only one I heard was Jeff Zepp. I could never hear who he was talking to. His CB must be tuned well as it was clearer than most.
Still, it was nice chatting from the front to back on crystal clear Ham.
Last edited by a moderator:
LARGEONE
Rising Sun Member
depends on years of wagons...Pigs and LVs might be same ratio as the 40s
I think a lot of people have hams in their main duty rigs, but since most people have relegated their old iron to occasional wheelers, the ham ends up in their "newer" wheeler. Cheap hand-helds are changing this a bit.
After trying to listen on CB on one of our runs, I was really motivated to go take my test. The ham is just so much clearer and the distance it can be used makes me feel way less stressed about getting "lost" from the group. There are times on CB if you stop to take a leak, and tell the group you'll catch up, you may never hear them again and miss a turn direction just a short distance up the trail.
I am now a believer in the ham, but feel that CB is unfortunately a must that will not go away....if ham ever got to the point where you didn't have to have an FCC license it could change this.
my 0.02
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Amateurs will always have a test, there's too much risk. As you know (or should) your ham ticket opens access to a lot of spectrum and allows you 1,500 watts on most of it. You can create a lot of havoc with that. The channelized 2m FM mobile is a very small part of amateur radio.
GMRS and MURS are the better options that should have taken hold with 4WD instead of ham. The licensing doesn't require a test, they give you 2m and 70cm access, increased power, mobile radios and in the case of GMRS repeaters even. The frequencies are determined, the channelization is fixed, so the ease of use is similar to 11m CB.
If there was any logic we'd do in OHV what they did in Australia based on GMRS, which is what they essentially call UHF CB down there. There's interoperability with FRS, which solves the 'What do I do about family?' situation, too.
GMRS and MURS are the better options that should have taken hold with 4WD instead of ham. The licensing doesn't require a test, they give you 2m and 70cm access, increased power, mobile radios and in the case of GMRS repeaters even. The frequencies are determined, the channelization is fixed, so the ease of use is similar to 11m CB.
If there was any logic we'd do in OHV what they did in Australia based on GMRS, which is what they essentially call UHF CB down there. There's interoperability with FRS, which solves the 'What do I do about family?' situation, too.
Met a guy from Oregon at Cruise Moab this year, forgot his name.. he was on the Swell run. He mentioned that his TLCA Chapter made it a requirement that all drivers on any overnight run be licensed Ham operators. From my experience here, it's almost a given on an overnight excursion with the extended club that Ham radio will be the default communication tool. Not saying we should adopt that same policy, in fact the opposite as the overwhelming benefit of Ham kinda becomes a requirement all on its own if this is the type of adventure you're doing.
he was on the Swell run. He mentioned that his TLCA Chapter made it a requirement that all drivers on any overnight run be licensed Ham operators. From my experience here, it's almost a given on an overnight excursion with the extended club that Ham radio will be the default communication tool. Not saying we should adopt that same policy, in fact the opposite as the overwhelming benefit of Ham kinda becomes a requirement all on its own if this is the type of adventure you're doing.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
The telling statistic is how many people once they get a ham installed just keep a CB because it's required by club protocol. I've not gotten around to permanently installing a CB in my truck because I just don't use it. Even OTR truckers seem to be using them less. I used to monitor for highway traffic but Waze is more reliable for knowing that stuff now without all the cussing and trolling for prostitutes.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
https://www.waze.com
Drivers report just about anything out there, stopped vehicles, speed traps, accidents. When you run the app on your phone it's constantly reporting your speed and direction to build a real time traffic map that can be used to route you around jams. Of course this data is valuable so it's sold (Waze is owned now by Google, of course). It forms the basis of data used by CDOT and cities to determine traffic flow and goes into the radio and TV reporters information flow, none of which is given to them for free don't ya know.
Drivers report just about anything out there, stopped vehicles, speed traps, accidents. When you run the app on your phone it's constantly reporting your speed and direction to build a real time traffic map that can be used to route you around jams. Of course this data is valuable so it's sold (Waze is owned now by Google, of course). It forms the basis of data used by CDOT and cities to determine traffic flow and goes into the radio and TV reporters information flow, none of which is given to them for free don't ya know.
rover67
Rising Sun Member
I think it'd be interesting to see how many folks that wheel more than a few times a year with our group have HAM. Who knows what the number actually is.
You guys know this but on a run of any size leader simply cannot communicate effectively with the tailgunner without HAM. On the runs we like to do out west where we get spread out and speeds are higher and vehicle gaps are greater due to dust, it is also the only reliable way to go.
I'm certainly a fan of keeping it old school and having a nice chromed out CB in a rig, and they can be made to work pretty well, but typically they don't and can't.
Honestly, my bottom line is it's just not as safe as having a HAM radio. I mean if anything happens I reach for the HAM. I know the group near me can hear me. They have taken the test, shown interest in good communications and probably have taken the time to make sure their stuff works or understand why it doesn't. The knowledge from this has even poured into CB users in the club though some may not want to admit it. HAM users in the know help CB'ers gt SWR tuned, find grounding issues, and generally speaking seem to help most with radios before another CB'er even knows what's up or wants to chime in.
Either way, put yourself up on Jenny Creek being confronted with a drunk and disorderly trail user that's putting people's lives at risk. Reach for CB, Cell, or HAM? the first two don't work. Reach for HAM and instantly I have an elmer in teh front range literally waiting for me to tell him to send the cops.
Put yourself in a situation where somebody needs medical evac. cell phone? nope. CB? no way. sat phone? nobody has one. HAM, bingo, use your knowledge, make the calls and it's your best bet.
Breakdown? you guessed it. HAM.
Hooking up at a random place in the woods to camp? HAM.
Does mine stay turned off lately? Yes, I should use it more. Does my CB stay turned off? Yes, except for a trail run i'm leading where the users have CB and i make an attempt to stay connected. it rarely works. and my CB is set up decently well even.
I think if you participate in group wheeling enough it's like owning any other piece of hardware.. maybe like a winch or other recovery gear. at first it's a come along and a strap (CB) then as people learn and find there are better solutions you get a winch and synthetic line. People may choose to wheel without all the frills and I dig it, it's fun and keeps it more of a solo experience even when you're in a group. Sometimes in a group i'll just turn the radio off and boom, there's my solo experience back again. that easy. Flip it on again when i need to take a whizz and let folks know I'll be along soon, done. I like that you have to take a test, it kinda makes sure people know how to set a radio (HAM or CB) up and use it. It also keeps people using the radio in a relatively efficient way that leaves space for real stuff that needs to be talked about.
You guys know this but on a run of any size leader simply cannot communicate effectively with the tailgunner without HAM. On the runs we like to do out west where we get spread out and speeds are higher and vehicle gaps are greater due to dust, it is also the only reliable way to go.
I'm certainly a fan of keeping it old school and having a nice chromed out CB in a rig, and they can be made to work pretty well, but typically they don't and can't.
Honestly, my bottom line is it's just not as safe as having a HAM radio. I mean if anything happens I reach for the HAM. I know the group near me can hear me. They have taken the test, shown interest in good communications and probably have taken the time to make sure their stuff works or understand why it doesn't. The knowledge from this has even poured into CB users in the club though some may not want to admit it. HAM users in the know help CB'ers gt SWR tuned, find grounding issues, and generally speaking seem to help most with radios before another CB'er even knows what's up or wants to chime in.
Either way, put yourself up on Jenny Creek being confronted with a drunk and disorderly trail user that's putting people's lives at risk. Reach for CB, Cell, or HAM? the first two don't work. Reach for HAM and instantly I have an elmer in teh front range literally waiting for me to tell him to send the cops.
Put yourself in a situation where somebody needs medical evac. cell phone? nope. CB? no way. sat phone? nobody has one. HAM, bingo, use your knowledge, make the calls and it's your best bet.
Breakdown? you guessed it. HAM.
Hooking up at a random place in the woods to camp? HAM.
Does mine stay turned off lately? Yes, I should use it more. Does my CB stay turned off? Yes, except for a trail run i'm leading where the users have CB and i make an attempt to stay connected. it rarely works. and my CB is set up decently well even.
I think if you participate in group wheeling enough it's like owning any other piece of hardware.. maybe like a winch or other recovery gear. at first it's a come along and a strap (CB) then as people learn and find there are better solutions you get a winch and synthetic line. People may choose to wheel without all the frills and I dig it, it's fun and keeps it more of a solo experience even when you're in a group. Sometimes in a group i'll just turn the radio off and boom, there's my solo experience back again. that easy. Flip it on again when i need to take a whizz and let folks know I'll be along soon, done. I like that you have to take a test, it kinda makes sure people know how to set a radio (HAM or CB) up and use it. It also keeps people using the radio in a relatively efficient way that leaves space for real stuff that needs to be talked about.
Rezarf
Hard Core 4+
This has become a good thread. Thanks for the info and opinions, I like that the Aussie's made their UHF an open band for their citizens... pretty sweet.
I agree with what has been said, once you go HAM, it's impossible to go back. It's like going from a carb engine to a fancy fuel injected hot rod motor.
The 40's only run could have still been a challenge if Romer, Nak, Adam and I didn't have HAM. We were spread WAAAAAY out.
I agree with what has been said, once you go HAM, it's impossible to go back. It's like going from a carb engine to a fancy fuel injected hot rod motor.
The 40's only run could have still been a challenge if Romer, Nak, Adam and I didn't have HAM. We were spread WAAAAAY out.
chaos
Rising Sun Member
So, I have been thinking about how to respond to this as someone new to the sport. I don't feel comfortable going out alone yet, so I've been on a Rising Sun Gulches trip, 2016 CruiseMoab, Bill Burke's 2 day training, 2017 FJ Summit and the double overnight with Bill. The requirement was always a working CB. I bought a Midland hand held and it didn't really work well at all from the day I took it out of the box.
After spending too much time here, and Mud and Expedition Portal, I got my ham license and a Baofeng hand held. I had the "required CB" for Cruise Moab and my hand held Baofeng. Most of the conversation (when I could hear it) was on the CB and very little on the Ham. I unplugged it because my other runs all seemed to be talking on CB, until I went on the JaxTrax and more people used Ham then. Actually, my first transmission on a ham radio ever!! On this year's FJ Summit, almost no one had a ham. With Bill's overnight trip, Bill left his hand held Ham in his Defender and was only on CB.
Since my Midland is dead, and my Baofeng developed some problems, it is time to get something more permanent in the vehicle. I have concluded that since I'm starting from scratch again, I'm going to get one of those Uniden's that go into the ashtray area with a magnetic antenna and also a dual band Ham mounted to the hood of my 80 with Gamiviti's hood mount thing. I'm going to have to do both.
I think this will give me a CB radio that I can actually hear people when that's all that is being used and then a Ham for when I go with a more seasoned group.
Tough being stuck in the middle...you have to be able to handle both.
Just my thoughts...
After spending too much time here, and Mud and Expedition Portal, I got my ham license and a Baofeng hand held. I had the "required CB" for Cruise Moab and my hand held Baofeng. Most of the conversation (when I could hear it) was on the CB and very little on the Ham. I unplugged it because my other runs all seemed to be talking on CB, until I went on the JaxTrax and more people used Ham then. Actually, my first transmission on a ham radio ever!! On this year's FJ Summit, almost no one had a ham. With Bill's overnight trip, Bill left his hand held Ham in his Defender and was only on CB.
Since my Midland is dead, and my Baofeng developed some problems, it is time to get something more permanent in the vehicle. I have concluded that since I'm starting from scratch again, I'm going to get one of those Uniden's that go into the ashtray area with a magnetic antenna and also a dual band Ham mounted to the hood of my 80 with Gamiviti's hood mount thing. I'm going to have to do both.
I think this will give me a CB radio that I can actually hear people when that's all that is being used and then a Ham for when I go with a more seasoned group.
Tough being stuck in the middle...you have to be able to handle both.
Just my thoughts...
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
CB radios aren't anything special in this modern technological era but being 11m, mobile CB is difficult to get an efficient antenna. Mag mounts are usually the worst way to go, too. I wouldn't spend much on a CB and would concentrate on finding a way to get a better antenna, if you want it to work as well as it can.
David good comments, thank you. I run a mag mount for CB antenna, a CB which is screwed to the side of the tranny hump. It's easy to get to the back of the radio to ad the antenna. I only run the mag mount when on a run where CB is the de facto communication tool, as you've experienced. I wouldn't run a mag mount permanently- there's a small safety risk there best avoided, IMO.
I really like the spot on the transmission cover that is in front of the t-case shifter for remote face plates- most will fit there, particularly the skinny ones like FT-7900 or FT-8900. Then the actual radio can live under the passenger seat, running the power and antenna to the outside edge under the carpet and up front under the door threshold plastic and passenger side kick panel. hope that helps some.
I really like the spot on the transmission cover that is in front of the t-case shifter for remote face plates- most will fit there, particularly the skinny ones like FT-7900 or FT-8900. Then the actual radio can live under the passenger seat, running the power and antenna to the outside edge under the carpet and up front under the door threshold plastic and passenger side kick panel. hope that helps some.