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Setting up APRS for Wheeling n' Stuff

DaveInDenver

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Looks like V5 Mapsforge is not supported yet. I'll see if I can figure out more on that. Everything else seems fine. So why would we want to upgrade? They're adding features and now we can run very close to the most developed version. Some may be useful, some not. But it's there anyway. One thing most everyone will like is the values can be set to Imperial. Miles rule, kilometers drool. It's also handy to now be able to sort stations on distance or time in the main hub, the messaging is improving, Mic-E added, etc.

Screenshot 2025-02-21 at 07.17.30.png
 
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DaveInDenver

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Whatcha got going there @nakman?

BTW, NA7Q pushed a new version of the side load APRSdroid that made some changes in the comment parsing. Nothing major, so no rush to update.


He did add a very preliminary "APRS HUD" apk.

This is a pretty cool little app that just shows you the stations as they come in as a full screen display, which IIRC is similar to the scrolling display on the built-in APRS radios. The main APRSdroid app gives you a ton of information so this is handy to just let run without being nearly as distracting.

Screenshot_20250330-152910_APRS HUD_mid.png
 
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DaveInDenver

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@rover67

I know Marco used the APRS SMS gateway. This had to be shut down a couple of years ago due to changes in cellular regulations.

NA7Q came up with a work around. In this case you now have to explicitly opt-in a number that is used as a target to/from the gateway. Once you do that you send messages to SMS instead of SMSGTE, otherwise it's pretty much the same idea.

https://aprs.wiki/

https://daily.hamweekly.com/2023/11/new-aprs-sms-gateway-service/
 
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rover67

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Ahh great info Dave thanks!! Yes I was testing it the other day and had forgotten this didn't work anymore.
 

nakman

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Ok here's a random question... just wrapped up a week of wheeling with APRS, some days with multiple people pushing packets. It was really cool for a variety of reasons, like one day in particular we were really spread out, and I knew Marco was towards the back, so each time I saw his APRS beacon I also saw his distance- so .5 miles, 1.3 miles, 3.1 miles, all good feedback on how spread out we were, and I could use that info to stop, keep going, etc.

When I looked at my station list I could see everyone on the run who was transmitting an APRS Beacon: Shawn, Marco, Chris, Daniel, Andy, and myself. My FTM-400 has a "pop-up window" that displays stations that come through APRS, and I was seeing them for Marco and Andy almost constantly. but I never saw a "pop-up" for Chris or myself, and I never saw a popup for Shawn until this morning. I know that Andy and Marco are using an HT for APRS transmissions, and Chris, Daniel, and myself all have FTM-400's.. but is that the difference? I'm just curious why it's not consistent... again in the station list we're all there, it's just only the HT guys are able to pop up on my screen every few minutes.
 

DaveInDenver

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@nakman, that question may not be a simple just do this-or-that to solve. There's a few things probably that were happening.

First thing is probably to understand how your radio works compared to the way Marco does it. Your radio is sort of two radios in a box while he's running two completely independent radios. The difference is key.

The FTM-400 has two receivers but only one transmitter it can use at a time. And even with two receivers they aren't completely independent of what's happening on the other side.

The main thing is the APRS side can never transmit when the voice side is transmitting. You might find this is rare or often. It gets back to how APRS works (this is a broad topic, network theory and all that) but the key thing here is position packets don't usually get queued or retried, they are sent when they are ready. If the APRS has a packet but you have the PTT keyed that packet is sent to the trash and the timer on the next one starts. So for the sake of argument let's say you're sending a position every 2 minutes. If you're talking when one is ready causing it to be skipped that gap between packets will be 4 minutes.

In Marco's case the APRS radio doesn't care. He can be talking on his voice radio while the APRS radio sends the packet. How often this happens of course varies. With 4 or 5 of you that's probably pretty unlikely. With two stations in an active QSO it could be a lot of skipped packets in the FTM-400 station comparatively.

Next way a packet TX is skipped is going to depend on your radio settings. The radios that can do voice and APRS simultaneously still may not send even if the voice side is receiving. This is to prevent the voice side from dropping out.

There's no way to transmit and receive at the same time in a radio as tightly packed as an FTM-400 and especially using one antenna. Normal repeaters do this using what's called a cavity duplexer, which is a device about half the size of a refrigerator that prevents the high energy from the transmitter from blowing out the very sensitive receiver circuit. To be clear, here, a digipeater works differently, using a store-and-forward approach that allows RX and TX on one antenna and in fact the exact same frequency. But there's a time delay added.

If you don't use one of those approaches you must use a diplexer or a physically break the path using relays to prevent this cross over. You can in theory fit a diplexer in the space of mobile radio, which would allow VHF and UHF to operate on the same antenna but it's physically impossible with two VHF frequencies in the space of a mobile radio this way. A diplexer requires many tens of MHz difference in frequencies to isolate each side, so a physically large duplexer is the only option.

Interesting (maybe) fact is I actually use the same antenna for APRS and GMRS using a diplexer. I can do this because my APRS radio is VHF-only and my GMRS is UHF-only. They can coexist happily with the diplexer.

Since Yaesu can't predict what you're going to do they take the safest approach, which is to totally disconnect the antenna from the voice side when the digital side transmits. It's annoying and potentially worse (to miss key information perhaps) to have a lot of gaps in a voice QSO. So the radio may give you the option to choose. If voice RX is given priority over APRS TX that could lead to quite a lot more missed packet transmit opportunities during an active QSO with lots of stations keeping your RX squelch open. If I was to guess if this is a setting you can do in an FTM-400 (to let it blank the voice RX for an APRS TX or not to interrupt).

The final difference is in dual RX itself. He has two radios that really are always listening during RX. Even with two RX frequencies not all dual VFO radio can really hear, demodulate (and decode for APRS) two things at exact same time. The old FT-8800 had the option to reduce the volume of the secondary channel to make it obvious that the primary was receiving, for example. I would think the FTM-400 would be smart enough but it still might have a shared signal path that prioritizes one active RX over the other.

You may see reference to MIC-E. This was a technique originally intended to make position packets so short that they could be burst at the start or end of a voice TX. When two stations fully implement MIC-E each time a voice TX is made their positions are updated. But in practice MIC-E has just become a way to make highly compressed packets for APRS.

There's a lot more technical beyond this as to why APRS works or doesn't.

Many APRS stations are poorly tuned and set up. It's kind of amazing the whole thing works as well as it does. The main solution used is more power to overcome deficiences. But even in the remote desert 5W of well set up digital radio will work as well as 50W of poorly. Remember 10 times the power is an ideal SNR improvement of 10 dB but if just a little bit of effort to dial in twist for your radio could get that much improvement in packet decoding alone.

It comes down to signal-to-noise needed. Electronics can dig out information from static many times better than your ears. In fact you might hear only static but an APRS decoder could very well hear packets. The difference could be 20, 30, 40 dB. Like being able to understand someone at S1 instead of S9. A lot of people leave a lot of performance on the table by overdriving into distortion or underdriving or having the wrong twist.

But the flip side is someone using 50W when 1W or 5W or 10W would work is swamping everyone else regardless. Moreso when the high power station is using excessive number of time slots or too long packet negotiation or creating interference. It's the CB'er with the linear and echo mic effect. So everyone has to pump up the jams just to compete for any airtime.

If you take the time to dial in your signal levels and timing, your time slot, your preamble and tail, etc you can get a significant increase in number of valid packets heard. I'll leave some references about APRS and about doing AX.25 networking over RF. Each time you transmit you're sending a digital packet out and when you're not transmitting you're listening to other packets flowing on that network. For the network to operate well each station needs to do its part.

https://www.aprs.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Packet_Reporting_System
https://www.soundcardpacket.org
https://www.febo.com/
 
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AimCOTaco

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Oh hey, small note I forgot to share Tim,

When I looked at your data on aprs.fi online Tues-Wed it reported that your settings were reducing the precision of the reported location by one digit. This may explain why my aprsdroid/moblink'd setup was showing you so far away (worse than 1 digit, probably an app issue) for me. When I looked online you were tighter to the group / roads. Anyway there may be something to find and tweak in your FTM-400 yet.
 

AimCOTaco

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Dave,

Great technical points as always, thanks. I've been messing around with too many antennas since I added GMRS, can you elaborate on you diplexer setup for sharing an antenna between the GMRS and 144.39 gear?
 

DaveInDenver

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Oh hey, small note I forgot to share Tim,

When I looked at your data on aprs.fi online Tues-Wed it reported that your settings were reducing the precision of the reported location by one digit. This may explain why my aprsdroid/moblink'd setup was showing you so far away (worse than 1 digit, probably an app issue) for me. When I looked online you were tighter to the group / roads. Anyway there may be something to find and tweak in your FTM-400 yet.
One of the improvements Yaesu did with the FTM-400XDR is use a better GPS chipset capable of correlating 66-channels. The FTM-350 (via optional FGPS-1) and FTM-400DR had a 12-channel GPS. From what I remember the new GPS chipset was a significant improvement in the GPS performance.
 
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DaveInDenver

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Dave,

Great technical points as always, thanks. I've been messing around with too many antennas since I added GMRS, can you elaborate on you diplexer setup for sharing an antenna between the GMRS and 144.39 gear?
The antenna is a 1/4 wavelength FlexiWhip (nothing fancy, but a dual band would work, too) into an MFJ-916 diplexer on the common port. My VHF APRS radio is a Friendcom FC-301/D 5W data radio and in this case for GMRS I was using a Kenwood TK-8180.

https://mfjenterprises.com/products/mfj-916b

This unit splits VHF to below 225MHz and UHF to above 350MHz. It gives 60 dB of isolation, which alone isn't enough but what you're really blocking is some of the high in and lower out of band energy.

IOW when your radio transmits at 440MHz there's a limit to how much energy it can produce ouside that. So at 145MHz the 440 MHz transmitter is allowed a maximum spurious emission no more than 40 dB below the fundamental, thus the front of the VHF radio in this case will see roughly -53 dBm (47 dBm is 50 watts minus 60 dB isolation minus another 40dB below that spurious) of that energy on it's receiver.

There's a bandpass/notch filters on the antenna port and output/input circuits of all radios that are already filtering out of band energy. So what your radio RX sees with something like this is still probably 50 or 60 dB higher than very the weakest signal the radio can hear. This box is not so much to make energy zero but so you don't break anything in the front ends and brings energy down to same level as close in signals, like two trucks next to each other. You'll peg your meter, the radio will hit it's minimum signal gain so won't have any hope to hear anything else but it won't smoke anything.

They make better ones that are physically larger that will have quite a bit more isolation but instead of being the size of a deck of cards they'll be more like the size of a dictionary.

It was a messy installation so I've since gone to a different arrangment so that the APRS radio has it's own dedicated antenna and my voice radios on a separate antenna set up.
 
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DaveInDenver

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To give you some reference.

This is a MFJ-916. It's the bare minimum you'd need to reasonably isolate VHF from UHF via a common antenna.

MFJ-916B.jpg

While this is the main N4CLA repeater cabinet. I've never been there, just a good photo I found. This is the sort of thing you'd need to isolate same band, e.g. UHF-UHF or VHF-VHF on the same antenna.

This would be impossible to implement in a mobile radio electronically (e.g. using capacitors, inductors, resistors) so they have to do the big hammer with a PIN diode or a relay that puts in a physical air gap and maybe a shunt between an active transmitter and any receivers.

But it's something they have to do anyway usually. Most radios can't do full duplex when they share one antenna port no matter single or multiple band. The books will refer to this as a "TR switch", a transmit/receive, switch. Which is the most practical solution and especially when you're space constrained.

  1. Duplexor for the 443.150 (UHF) repeater
  2. 443.150 repeater
  3. Card cage
  4. Receiver / exciter
  5. 50 Watt Motorola amplifier
  6. Power supplies
  7. Cans (the VHF "cavity") for 147.06

N4CLA_maincabinet.jpg
 
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rover67

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For the Record my current setup is:

TM-V71A - Kenwood radio for 2m and 70cm voice only, 1/4 wave or 5/8 wave antenna in center of roof.
FT-1500M with a Mobilinkd TNC paired via Bluetooth to a Android tablet running APRSdroid and a 1/2 wave antenna on the front fender.

Previously I had the TM-V71A hooked up to the Mobilinkd and running the North American APRS freq on one side while using voice on the other. It worked great except I'd get a pause in my voice transmission or receiving while it was transmitting a packet. That got kind of annoying. Even happening infrequently. I went with the new setup so I could devote the TM-V71A to only voice and monitor a frequency while using another.

When playing around with APRSdroid this year I have actually been pleased for a change, the new release dave referenced previously works well and I have an old colorado/utah map I've been using with it for offline use. It's actually a decent map and I can run it alone without gaia and see everybody on the map pretty easily. I noticed also Aprsdroid has an option for position ambiguity, you can select from a few levels of ambiguity. I wonder if the FTM-400 also has that option and it is somehow set to a innacurate location on purpose? The packets I was receiving from you Tim were pretty spaced out, so that coupled with the positional inaccuracy made it basically impossible to see where you were (with any meaningful accuracy) in real time. on the flip side I'm probably sending packets too frequently. I'm using smart beaconing on the APRSdroid app.
 
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DaveInDenver

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Looks like ambiguity can be set in the FTM-400.

Yaesu-FTM-400DR_APRS_manual_1309-A0-sep2013_p80.jpg
How do we know?


Station info for K0NAK-7 – aprs.fi – live APRS map - aprs.fi.jpg

Which you can see in a raw packet.

2025-04-26 13:03:36 MST: K0NAK-7>SXUPVZ,BAXTER,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1,qAR,SKING:`u*Nn49R/`"BP}146.580MHz k0nak tim nakman gmvt-2 _%

The time stamp is obvious. I use one of the programs in Direwolf called, clever enough 'decode_aprs', to decode packets.

Code:
cat test.txt | /opt/local/bin/decode_aprs

K0NAK-7>SXURSZ,BAXTER,WIDE1*,qAR,SKING:`u(vm\+R/`"D?}146.580MHz k0nak tim nakman    gmvt-2 _%
Digi3 Address "qAR" is a "q-construct" used for communicating with
APRS Internet Servers.  It should never appear when going over the radio.
MIC-E, REC. VEHICLE, Yaesu FTM-400DR, Off Duty
N 38 52.3000, W 109 12.9000, 30 km/h (18 MPH), course 15, alt 1496 m (4908 ft), 146.580 MHz
 k0nak tim nakman    gmvt-2<0x20>

You can see where the longitude and latitude are padded with zeros. But that's not a guess. In MIC-E the fields tell you what's going on and why, defined in the protocol document if you want to figure it out. The APRS decoder doesn't know why there's ambiguity, just knows it's there.

 
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