Need emissions help, Colorado changing rules for v8 swaps

[White Stripe]

We've been the same as Cali for many years, just not quite as hard core. Now things are getting tighter, as they're checking to see if you have a tune and failing you unless the tune is CARB certified. If it is, you have to go to the referee station where they check that, sign off on it and then you get to go back to Air Care to get tested.

How do they check if you have a tune?

 

[satchel]

The stock tune has version numbers. When I took mine in they gave me a 5 page printout showing each stock version I should have had and what it did in the computer. If you are missing any or the version number doesn't match they fail you.

 

[J1000]

How do they check if you have a tune?

Over the past decades the state of CA has literally copied the data from millions and millions of vehicle ECUs and created a database they can check against.

 

[White Stripe]

The stock tune has version numbers. When I took mine in they gave me a 5 page printout showing each stock version I should have had and what it did in the computer. If you are missing any or the version number doesn't match they fail you.

So what do you have to do?

 

[satchel]

You have to install the exact tune that is meant for the engine and year. You can typically find tuning websites where people post their stock tunes and you can download one of the same engine that matches.

I registered mine in Texas instead of going that route, so I can't offer much expertise.

 

[Docwyte]

The stock tune has certain values in the cvn and check sum areas. Those have to match with what the smog computer says and with your VIN#. This info has been given to them by the car companies. So just any stock tune won't work, it's gotta be the one linked to your specific car.

If you need your stock tune, many of the tuners have them, or most of the hand held units grab your stock tune before loading on their tune, so you can revert back to stock easily

 

[DouglasVB]

That sucks they're changing the rules on you!

I can speak to my experiences in California in a smog "Basic" county. There are three tiers here -- 1) change of ownership area, 2) basic, 3) enhanced -- and they are based on how bad the smog gets in the area and how rural it is. If it's really rural, you only smog when you change ownership. If there isn't a bad air quality issue, you're doing the basic smog check.

For my now dearly departed 1986 4runner with an all stock engine, they popped the hood to manually verify all vacuum hoses were correct, all components were present, the correct sticker was on the underside of the hood, and I think they inserted a few probes under the hood, too? Then they also did a gas cap check and gas tank check. And a tail pipe sniff at various RPMs. They also crawled underneath and physically verified the numbers on my catalytic converter with what is legal in Cali for the vehicle. One year my EGR valve wasn't actuating properly and they were able to pinpoint that as the problem (I think they're not supposed to tell you what the problem is but they did for me in a wink wink sort of way). So I went over to the Toyota dealership a few blocks away and bought a new EGR vacuum actuator and then it passed just fine. Another year my catalytic converter was completely blown out so I had to get a new one of those. The re-test fee was lower for me versus the initial test but they re-did the entire test from start to finish again. So I think there must be whatever cut the shop gets and they get that every time, and then the state only takes their cut once.

On my 2001 Ford Focus ZX3 5M/T (just broke 251k miles with the original clutch!), it failed once due to a collapsed hose involved in the emissions equipment. They found the issue, marked it with a bit chalk X, showed it to me (again in a wink wink situation), and failed it. I bought the hose, put it in, and then it passed just fine. They did the same thing as with my 4runner -- open the hood, inspect everything, verify the numbers on the cat match their database, check the gas cap, check the tank. Then of course they also plugged into the OBDII port.

Both tests were static tests since I live in a "Basic" county. I think they do rolling tests on at least some vehicles (depending on model year and such) in the "Enhanced" counties. But I've never had to deal with that so I'm not really sure what happens in that situation.

When I brought my vehicles into California (both were Cali-compliant vehicles), I had to get VIN inspections on the 4runner and Focus but on my motorcycle they also had to verify the engine serial number matched my paperwork. Evidently that's a whole thing on motorcycles here I think from chop shops stealing bikes and selling engines. It's the same deal if they see you with a tail gate that doesn't match the color of your truck. You have to have paperwork that clearly shows you bought the tailgate from somewhere legally -- there was a big problem with stolen tailgates for a while. I think there might be similar (seldom enforced) requirements for other auto parts regarding retaining purchase paperwork.

I see so many old Toyota pickups running around with current tags that it must not be terribly hard to pass emissions here even with ancient vehicles as long as everything is kept up to date on maintenance. In my area I also see all sorts of other old vehicles being driven by people who probably shouldn't be driving anymore . For instance, there's a guy who is older than the hills down the block from me with a late 70s era El Camino that's completely rusted out (he tarps the roof when it rains) and it has current tags. I see plenty of other 70s and 80s era vehicles driven by old timers with current plates.

I never had to deal with the CARB inspectors for an engine swap or anything like that. I thought about it and looked into it but I got so much conflicting information from online sources that it wasn't worth trying to sort out for myself. Local shops that do LS swaps that I talked to basically said they'd do the swap but I was on my own for paperwork.

I'm a little surprised that there isn't a system in place yet to buy your way out of the more stringent emissions requirements. Or maybe a cap-and-trade situation? It would be cool, for instance, if I could swap an engine and be allowed to do it with minimal questions or hassle if I also took an old polluting car off the road and sent it to the crusher.

The future though is EV conversions

 

[J1000]

I'm a little surprised that there isn't a system in place yet to buy your way out of the more stringent emissions requirements. Or maybe a cap-and-trade situation? It would be cool, for instance, if I could swap an engine and be allowed to do it with minimal questions or hassle if I also took an old polluting car off the road and sent it to the crusher.

The future though is EV conversions

If you talk to the policymakers they just say "we want to get old cars off the road." It's not really about the emissions. If it really were, then they would much rather everyone has their old jalopy than a brand new Tesla, after all manufacturing a new car takes tens of thousands of gallons of clean, fresh water and the average new car puts 15 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere when manufactured. Not to mention an EV takes many times more copper and nickel than a gasoline car. How many years would it take to drive an old polluting car and put out 15 tons of CO2 out the tailpipe?

So it's not about the environment, that's just the legal basis to give the power needed to restrict peoples' vehicles.

They say as much; city planners say they need to put cities on a "road diet" by adding bike lanes, red lights, narrow roads, etc with the express goal of reducing automobile traffic. Dems say high gas prices are good because it reflects "the true environmental cost" it doesn't matter if it hurts individuals or the economy as long as the end goal of reducing traffic on the roads are realized.

The unspoken truth is that limiting peoples' mobility in this way directly limits economic opportunity and freedom of mobility.

You can buy your way out of it by buying a new car, it's emissions excempt for 5 years. So you buy a new car and modify the hell out of it and then sell it on to the next schlub after 5 years and get a new one.

I think Quebec has actually outlawed EV conversions of gas vehicles unless you get a permit from the government to do it commercially. I wouldn't be surprised if that type of thing expands or for instance banning EV conversions from public charges and the like.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to this stuff, I hope I'm wrong.

 

[DouglasVB]

How many years would it take to drive an old polluting car and put out 15 tons of CO2 out the tailpipe?

Looks like it would take about four years?

Greenhouse Gas Emissions from a Typical Passenger Vehicle | US EPA

This page answers questions about GHG emissions from passenger vehicles and how these emissions are measured and calculated.

www.epa.gov

 

[J1000]

Looks like it would take about four years?

Greenhouse Gas Emissions from a Typical Passenger Vehicle | US EPA

This page answers questions about GHG emissions from passenger vehicles and how these emissions are measured and calculated.

www.epa.gov

How does burning a gallon of gasoline (2.7kg) release 8.8kg of CO2?

 

[DouglasVB]

How does burning a gallon of gasoline (2.7kg) release 8.8kg of CO2?

https://climatekids.nasa.gov/review/carbon/gasoline.html

I guess that's how it does it.

 

[J1000]

https://climatekids.nasa.gov/review/carbon/gasoline.html

I guess that's how it does it.

Thanks for that. Still works out that if you keep an old car on the road it will have a smaller carbon footprint than if you buy a new car to replace one that works fine. It'd put you about 4 years ahead.

 

[DouglasVB]

Thanks for that. Still works out that if you keep an old car on the road it will have a smaller carbon footprint than if you buy a new car to replace one that works fine.

Yup until the old car is sufficiently dead enough that it stops making sense. Or to get new safety features.

Like my Ford Focus... It needs so much work if it is to keep running much longer and the interior is trash. Plus all the body damage. Basically everything other than the unibody needs to be replaced at this point So I could keep it on the road but it would be less expensive for me over time to get something significantly newer with less mileage. And then if I got an electric vehicle, I'd be money ahead and helping the climate after a few years as well.

But if you've got a cream puff Pontiac Phoenix with the upgraded wire rims then absolutely keep that beauty on the road

 

[nuclearlemon]

Luckily, unlike CA, CO hasn't delegated the responsibility to law enforcement and they aren't pulling over modified cars and crushing them like they did in CA. More of a slow burn here.

Not yet...but Calorado is quickly changing

 

[White Stripe]

The stock tune has certain values in the cvn and check sum areas. Those have to match with what the smog computer says and with your VIN#. This info has been given to them by the car companies. So just any stock tune won't work, it's gotta be the one linked to your specific car.

If you need your stock tune, many of the tuners have them, or most of the hand held units grab your stock tune before loading on their tune, so you can revert back to stock easily

Thanks. I just did some research on it myself. Came across the cvn and checksum numbers. Looks like if you know what your doing you can change both numbers to whatever you want. I'm a amateur tuner so it was a little above my head. I'm really not sure why aftermarket tunes are a concern if if the car has to get exhaust gasses tested every year. I do know enough too that factory tunes are not the most efficient or pollution free tune. In addition it makes no sense if for example I want to bump up the pump pressure in my transmission so the clutches wear out slower and fail me for emissions in doing so.

 

[DouglasVB]

Thanks. I just did some research on it myself. Came across the cvn and checksum numbers. Looks like if you know what your doing you can change both numbers to whatever you want. I'm a amateur tuner so it was a little above my head. I'm really not sure why aftermarket tunes are a concern if if the car has to get exhaust gasses tested every year. I do know enough too that factory tunes are not the most efficient or pollution free tune. In addition it makes no sense if for example I want to bump up the pump pressure in my transmission so the clutches wear out slower and fail me for emissions in doing so.

Out here in Cali it's been a thing for a bit over a year. This explains it decently: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cu...californias-new-ecu-law-means-for-tuned-cars/

It seems like some tuner companies are getting their tunes approved by the state so they can sell them. But it also seems like a piggyback device or just swapping ECUs would get around it.

I think the CVN is a calculated value by the ECU that can't be changed manually?

 

[White Stripe]

Out here in Cali it's been a thing for a bit over a year. This explains it decently: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cu...californias-new-ecu-law-means-for-tuned-cars/

It seems like some tuner companies are getting their tunes approved by the state so they can sell them. But it also seems like a piggyback device or just swapping ECUs would get around it.

I think the CVN is a calculated value by the ECU that can't be changed manually?

The big name tunes must take a lot to get approved. The cvn can't be changed unless some mild hacking is done from what I understand.

 

[DouglasVB]

It seems they just hack the ecu to display a fake cvn.

To quote a great movie ...

Life... Uh... Finds a way.

 

[White Stripe]

To quote a great movie ...

Life... Uh... Finds a way.

Ya I don't think they are really that sophisticated of ecu's.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

If you talk to the policymakers they just say "we want to get old cars off the road." It's not really about the emissions. If it really were, then they would much rather everyone has their old jalopy than a brand new Tesla, after all manufacturing a new car takes tens of thousands of gallons of clean, fresh water and the average new car puts 15 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere when manufactured. Not to mention an EV takes many times more copper and nickel than a gasoline car. How many years would it take to drive an old polluting car and put out 15 tons of CO2 out the tailpipe?

So it's not about the environment, that's just the legal basis to give the power needed to restrict peoples' vehicles.

They say as much; city planners say they need to put cities on a "road diet" by adding bike lanes, red lights, narrow roads, etc with the express goal of reducing automobile traffic. Dems say high gas prices are good because it reflects "the true environmental cost" it doesn't matter if it hurts individuals or the economy as long as the end goal of reducing traffic on the roads are realized.

The unspoken truth is that limiting peoples' mobility in this way directly limits economic opportunity and freedom of mobility.

You can buy your way out of it by buying a new car, it's emissions excempt for 5 years. So you buy a new car and modify the hell out of it and then sell it on to the next schlub after 5 years and get a new one.

I think Quebec has actually outlawed EV conversions of gas vehicles unless you get a permit from the government to do it commercially. I wouldn't be surprised if that type of thing expands or for instance banning EV conversions from public charges and the like.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to this stuff, I hope I'm wrong.

Not just about limiting people's mobility, it's about limiting people period. Politicians and many in the elite rich class make no bones about the fact that they want to reduce the world's population drastically.