• RS MAY CLUB MEETING
    Hi Guest: Our monthly RS meeting on Wed. May 1st will be held at the Rooney Sports Complex. Details and directions are here. Early start time: 7:00 pm. to take advantage of daylight. We'll be talking ColoYota Expo and Cruise Moab.
    If you are eligible for club membership, please fill out an application in advance of the meeting and bring it with you.

Mini Truck SAS

CardinalFJ60

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
2,485
Location
Lafayette
I added castor correction shims to my 40 after adding springs and longer shackles. That did the trick. They are offered, I believe, in varying angles. I wanna say mine were 3degree (?)
 

CardinalFJ60

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
2,485
Location
Lafayette
One other thing and I’m way out of my knowledge zone. the 40 and 60 have a steering dampener do you have one? And with out that thing would that contribute to the rocking you describe?
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,075
Location
Grand Junction
Keep in mind mini trucks and an SAS like this the shackle is trailing rather than leading like on stock 40/60/62. So longer shackles create a different geometry problem.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what Jeremy is suggesting (short shackles) because longer shackles on a mini truck would slacken the caster and tend to make the steering slower and less reactive. Guess it must be that if caster is too positive the steering no longer wants to return to center at all. It just wanders through life aimlessly, you know like most of us Yotaheads.

There's also the case where the he actually needs different length than stock shackles. The stock length are right for a stock truck and springs but that doesn't mean they're right for lift springs or an SAS. He had to notch the frame after all... ;-)

So do you have the numbers from the shop @dan1554? What is the caster?

The general advice is that steering dampers are a band-aid. If replacing yours or adding a second fixes your death wobble then that usually means you have more fundamental issues to solve. And if it's a question of already too slack caster adding more damping to already slow steering will have no effect at all, might even make it worse.

But to add to the equation even though there's really nothing you can adjust your rear suspension in an alignment and overall stance impacts steering. Since Dan's got the bro lean going (e.g. SoCal pre-runner look) it's possible that his caster will be fine once he gets it level or slightly stinkbug.

For example, I put 2° wedges on my rear springs trying to fix up the rear driveshaft angles (Toyota doesn't use double cardens on 2005+ Tacomas so they are real touchy about rear lifts and pinion angle). That and the 3" of rear inches of lift made the steering more sensitive.

You know, it's also possible the axle is bent. Do you know it's history?
 
Last edited:

dan1554

RS Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
651
Location
Chaffee County
Guess it must be that if caster is too positive the steering no longer wants to return to center at all. It just wanders through life aimlessly, you know like must of us Yotaheads.
:lmao::lmao::lmao:

@DaveInDenver I think you are reading my mind. My caster is out of spec by more than 3 degrees positive. I thought this would only give more firm steering and maybe some additional tire wear, but it sounds like overly positive caster can affect handling negatively. This is from pirate 4x4:

Coming into this thread late, but the wobble you describe is exactly what I had after my swap. After the swap my front end was quite a bit higher than the rear. And carrying weight in the back made the side to side wobble even worse. When I finally got my new rear springs on and leveled the ride the wobble disappeared. Occasionally the wobble will come back (much less severe) if I have too much gear in the back.

In your later post you say it seems to have gone away with all the parts removed out of the bed. I think the weight in the rear, and in my case the sagging butt end changed the alignment up front which caused the wobble.

In my case the wobble was worse when hitting an expansion joint on the highway at an angle. Ironically, one of the worse times the wobble occurred I was on the freeway heading to 4Crawler's place to install the new rear springs (and level the ride) which were laying in the bed of the truck.

So once I get everything painted and reassembled I think I'll throw the longer rear shackles on and see if it helps. I bet I have 3 degrees of 'bro lean'

I'm also considering pulling a leaf. Is there 'best' leaf to remove from this pack? I think my only options are leaf 3 or 4, counting down from the top. They are the only ones that are just plain flat leafs. Or I just be patient and hope for settle, or that the rear lift will push weight to the front. I guess I could always add the leaf back. :dunno:

Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 9.51.39 AM.png
 

Notyourmomslx450

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
3,256
Location
Westminster
:lmao::lmao::lmao:

@DaveInDenver I think you are reading my mind. My caster is out of spec by more than 3 degrees positive. I thought this would only give more firm steering and maybe some additional tire wear, but it sounds like overly positive caster can affect handling negatively. This is from pirate 4x4:



So once I get everything painted and reassembled I think I'll throw the longer rear shackles on and see if it helps. I bet I have 3 degrees of 'bro lean'

I'm also considering pulling a leaf. Is there 'best' leaf to remove from this pack? I think my only options are leaf 3 or 4, counting down from the top. They are the only ones that are just plain flat leafs. Or I just be patient and hope for settle, or that the rear lift will push weight to the front. I guess I could always add the leaf back. :dunno:

View attachment 99952
I'd add the shims, leave the boomerang shackles and drive/wheel it. the leafs will settle. promise
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,075
Location
Grand Junction
You usually can only remove one class of spring. Can't be the top one with the eyes and usually #2 has full or partial military wraps and must also usually stay.

The shorter ones that taper usually have to stay. They are more than progressive springs, they also serve to spread the load so that you don't shear leafs.

So it's only flat, full length leafs that can come and go. You may not even have any of those.
 
Last edited:

dan1554

RS Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
651
Location
Chaffee County
I'd add the shims, leave the boomerang shackles and drive/wheel it. the leafs will settle. promise
Thats great to hear. I'll see if I can find some shims. I'm actually adding longer rear shackles (to lift the rear of the truck and reduce the squat), but leaving the front boomerangs alone.

You usually can only remove one class of spring. Can't be the top one with the eyes and usually #2 has full or partial military wraps and must also stay. The shorter ones that taper usually have to stay. So it's only totally flat, full length leafs that can come and go. You may not have any of those even.
Yeah I have none of those. Thanks for helping me rule that out.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,075
Location
Grand Junction
Yeah I have none of those. Thanks for helping me rule that out.
Just trying to see the stack, but you might get away with removing the #3 or #4 but I'd be wary of the stresses and it would make the pack spring rate more abrupt and less progressive.

The term they use is spring length stepping and it's not just random. Too much or too little affects how much the pack is prone to wind up.

Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 11.12.05 AM.png


You can't take out #5 with the clips for sure.

The spring manufacturer should be able to tell you, though. Old Man Emu in their packs has a formula for which springs and types to make a light into a medium into a heavy (usually the number of full length in the #3 slot but it's possible for it to be a combination of a full and another).

So if you did take out springs from your pack the change in height would be because technically you've overloaded the spring, though.
 
Last edited:

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,075
Location
Grand Junction
If you end up adding shims and they work for you I’d weld them on. I’ve spit a few of those out and it’s an unnecessary trail repair that never happens in a good spot
FWIW, I used Roger Brown's bolt-on shims in my rear springs and I felt they were pretty well made. They are machined steel (looks like plain hot rolled material to me) with a relief pocket milled in for the center pin.

Way different compared to cast ones you slip in. I can't see these splitting (the thin end is still maybe 1/8") but they are a PITA to remove or change. You have to cut and replace the center pin.

But he also offers a version intended to be welded to the spring perch. It's the same shim but the hole is drilled through to clear the center pin completely.

For front shims I'd give it some thought from a safety aspect. Which way is safer? I honestly don't know. One style is double bolted (center pin plus u-bolts) but then again welding a shim to the axle perch is still backed up with the u-bolts so even if the weld failed it can't go anywhere.

 
Last edited:

dan1554

RS Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
651
Location
Chaffee County
@TrailRigRacing Thats GREAT info. It sounds like the same setup, except I'm using chevy rears of unknown origin and age with a 350 pound topper. I'll run them with the 7" shackles for a bit and see how the fronts settle. Love the photos. If anything photos of my welds are now junking up the thread. 😬
 

J Kimmel

Hard Core 4+
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
1,702
Location
Glenwood Springs CO
FWIW, I used Roger Brown's bolt-on shims in my rear springs and I felt they were pretty well made. They are machined steel (looks like plain hot rolled material to me) with a relief pocket milled in for the center pin.

Way different compared to cast ones you slip in. I can't see these splitting (the thin end is still maybe 1/8") but they are a PITA to remove or change. You have to cut and replace the center pin.

But he also offers a version intended to be welded to the spring perch. It's the same shim but the hole is drilled through to clear the center pin completely.

For front shims I'd give it some thought from a safety aspect. Which way is safer? I honestly don't know. One style is double bolted (center pin plus u-bolts) but then again welding a shim to the axle perch is still backed up with the u-bolts so even if the weld failed it can't go anywhere.

I used steel shims, and spit them out twice before welding them in. Maybe they live under smaller tires? I don’t know, but they spit in inconvenient places.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,075
Location
Grand Junction
I used steel shims, and spit them out twice before welding them in. Maybe they live under smaller tires? I don’t know, but they spit in inconvenient places.
Are you saying spit (as in shot out) or split (as in cracked and broken in half)?

I read split with the "L", which I've had happen to cast zinc shims, thus why I used machined steel.

Being spit out, yeah defs, that's why I went with the bolt on type that use the center pin to hold them in place. That's never happened to me and I like it that way, too!
 

J Kimmel

Hard Core 4+
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
1,702
Location
Glenwood Springs CO
Spit out. Broke center pins. It’s a mess. I couldn’t ever get center pins and U bolts tight enough. I welded a new spring hanger on one side and the opposing spring plate but I bolted the driver side on rather than weld to the cast and I spit that one out too along with breaking studs on the housing (Dana 60). So I linked it.
 

dan1554

RS Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
651
Location
Chaffee County
Put some 2.5 degree shims in while I was painting everything. It was 3 degrees over spec, but I'm thinking the 7" rear shackles and front spring settling will take care of the remaining 0.5. It seems to have taken care of most of the rocking in fast corners, and it doesn't feel like its about to dart off the road anymore.

Doing some soul searching on whether or not I want to mess with the drive train right now (LS swap). That will determine how soon it gets a front drive shaft and sees dirt.

Screen Shot 2021-11-30 at 3.31.34 PM.png
 

rover67

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
9,322
Location
Boulder, Co
Looking great Dan!

Hijack on:

New OME rear springs in the Tundra have a W shape when loaded. I added another leaf to try and fix it. sounds like it'd a design issue... looks just like "B". Bummed since its a factory OME pack. Maybe a call to ARB is in order.

screen-shot-2021-11-23-at-11-12-05-am-png.99953
 

rover67

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
9,322
Location
Boulder, Co
Oh yeah that’s awesome great choice. I might just throw a cam in it and call it a day. They do take boost well though as Phillip maybe was alluding to.
 
Top