Metalworking Advice Needed

[Rzeppa]

Working on getting everything "just right" before I weld up the B-pillars on my 76 FJ40 resto project, I decided to take few measurements off my 71 FJ40, and boy am I glad I did. To recap, I am basically fabbing a new tub from scratch using CCOT panels to graft in to what's left of the 76. CCOT has you save the old lip portion of your old tub, because they are usually not too rotted (correct) and would be super hard and expensive to produce and sell.

Cut to the chase:

When I fitted the old lip up to the new B-pillars, they sorta fit the profile:

 

[Rzeppa]

I noticed that at the rear, the CCOT rockers didn't quite line up, but I figured I could make a shim out of some sheet metal in an L shape and weld it in.

 

[Rzeppa]

The inside front didn't fit perfect, but a quick pass with the angle grinder made quick work of that,

 

[Rzeppa]

The following two photos show what the bigger picture looks like. The original, saved lip extends all the way from the A-pillar to the rear of the quarter panel where the ambulance door will hinge.

 

[Rzeppa]

Tonight, I got out the tape measure to make sure everything was "just right" I was shocked to discover that the whole original B-Pillar needed to move rearward by 1/2" to match the 34.5" measurement of my 71 from the rear edge of the A-Pillar to the rear edge of the B-Pillar. I cut the CCOT rockers and then bent them back straight to figure out a new bend later, then positioned the original lip at the proper 34.5" location. (FWIW, I double checked the doors on the 71 and the 76, and they are same-same dimensions).

After much measuring and grinding away, I now have what you see in the following photos:

 

[Rzeppa]

So, as you can see, the bend of the CCOT rockers is way too far forward to fit. My question is, what advice can I get on how to match the CCOT rocker edges at the B-Pillar to weld to the bottom of the original B-Pillar? Cut and substitute a new section? Heat and blacksmith? Bend gently with vice grips? Lotsa bondo?

The photo below shows where I have marked with a sharpie pen where the bend in the rockers should approximately be.

 

[subzali]

Sorry, no help here Jeff. Matt Andersen (buckroseau) is a metal-working master on MUD, doing a LPB resto in the 45 section, you might try to PM him and see what he thinks. The guy seems to have a solution for everything!

If it were me, I'd probably cut the rocker and splice in a piece that shifts the rocker back to where it needs to be. That way you don't have to dork with the curve of the lip, and it's pretty much just a rectangular-shaped piece of metal you're putting in. But then again I've never worked with metal...

 

[Rzeppa]

If it were me, I'd probably cut the rocker and splice in a piece that shifts the rocker back to where it needs to be. That way you don't have to dork with the curve of the lip, and it's pretty much just a rectangular-shaped piece of metal you're putting in.

That'd work good if the rockers weren't already welded in GOOD to the floorpans. At this point dorking with the curved sections will be most practical.

 

[Beater]

I am having trouble following you jeff. Do you just need to remove the section you have outlined on the brown tub? Or to you want to bend it in? What?

It looks like you want to section that part out so the new will slide in there? Is that correct? That a tough bit oh business there, but if that's that you need to do, I would find a plasma cutter and torch it out. Oxy will over heat the area and warp the crap out of it.

I am sure there is someone on the west side who has a portable unit, I think I am too far away for ya.

 

[Rzeppa]

I am having trouble following you jeff. Do you just need to remove the section you have outlined on the brown tub? Or to you want to bend it in? What?

Correct, the mark shows where the profile of the rocker should be. I am trying to match the profile of the rocker panel (incorrect due to the bend occurring too far forward) with the profile of the lip (which is the original lip from the factory). The door won't close properly if I simply welded it in the way it is now. Basically the two main things I am thinking of are to either cut that section out, or to somehow re-bend it to the proper profile, which seems to me to be less likely to work.

It looks like you want to section that part out so the new will slide in there? Is that correct?

Kinda sorta. If the replacement rocker panels had been bent properly to begin with, it wouldn't have been a problem. I am very happy, overall, with all the parts I've purchased from CCOT, and it's a given that the installer needs considerable skill to build a tub practically from scratch. They've been helpful over the phone and email. This particular problem really has me scratching my head on the best approach though. If the Heritage parts had been available when I was buying parts for this project I may have gone in that direction though.

That a tough bit oh business there, but if that's that you need to do, I would find a plasma cutter and torch it out. Oxy will over heat the area and warp the crap out of it.

I don't have plasma, so my precision cutting is generally with a small, air powered cutoff wheel.

I am sure there is someone on the west side who has a portable unit, I think I am too far away for ya.

Oh I can cut it out, and cut and bend a curved, crescent shaped piece to graft in. That's kind of the direction I'm leaning towards.

Thanks for posting up; you're among the folks in this club who has a LOT of experience with this sort of thing, and I really respect your advice!

 

[nakman]

No advice, but to the 2x12 rear quarter support!

 

[Rzeppa]

No advice, but to the 2x12 rear quarter support!

Hehe...that's not a 2x12! That's a shock absorber

 

[jefsyl]

Jeff,

I think what I would do is cut out the curved conture (the part that needs moved back) by cutting along the line that you have drawn, then remove enough additional material so to weld it back in where in needs to be to line up.

But, will this then leave you with a gap between the rocker panal and the door seal ledge? I can't tell from the pic if there is a lip/flange to fill the gap between the two pieces.

Kind of tricky to talk about describe with out being able to point and touch.

Jeff Trotter
Riverton, WY

 

[Beater]

if no one is near your with a plasma torch, take a trip down the hill to the west side harbor freight and pick up a "fender saw" small reciprocating saw and use about a 18 tooth or higher blade and cut it out.

Now for the weird part. after you cut out what you need, and weld where you can, do not patch with an irregular piece. use a square or circle pattern large enough to cover the area of the irregular patch. Now cut out the template square or circle, then trace onto the body. Then you cut inside that trace on the body. Then weld using the "divide by two" method, hitting the 4 points of the compass, away from the corners if a square or rectangle. then divide the distance by two each spot. Do not run a bead.

Or, do it your own way.


by doing a "regular" size patch, it will cut down on distortion from the HAF.

Another trick for patching narrow gaps is to place the patch from behind, and zap that to the edge from the front (finish side) and fill with weld. I am not a big fan of this though, unless the gap is less then an 1/4" wide.

Here are some examples from my brothers shop, about midway down this page: http://www.henleyskustompainting.com/project1.html

 

[Rzeppa]

Jeff,

I think what I would do is cut out the curved conture (the part that needs moved back) by cutting along the line that you have drawn, then remove enough additional material so to weld it back in where in needs to be to line up.

That's exactly what I've done today.

But, will this then leave you with a gap between the rocker panal and the door seal ledge? I can't tell from the pic if there is a lip/flange to fill the gap between the two pieces.

I'm actually using the piece I cut out as the filler piece. Been working it on my anvil with a hammer. Have it pretty close to the right shape now. After grinding the welds down, I'll smooth it out with body filler.

 

[Rzeppa]

if no one is near your with a plasma torch, take a trip down the hill to the west side harbor freight and pick up a "fender saw" small reciprocating saw and use about a 18 tooth or higher blade and cut it out.

I have a sawzall, but it's way too heavy duty, even with the 24 tooth blade I have for it; for precise cuts I use an air powered thin (1/16") cutoff wheel. Someday I'll splurge for a plasma cutter...

Now for the weird part. after you cut out what you need, and weld where you can, do not patch with an irregular piece. use a square or circle pattern large enough to cover the area of the irregular patch. Now cut out the template square or circle, then trace onto the body. Then you cut inside that trace on the body. Then weld using the "divide by two" method, hitting the 4 points of the compass, away from the corners if a square or rectangle. then divide the distance by two each spot. Do not run a bead.

I *think* what you're talking about is the technique I have used for all my successful sheet metal welds, which is as you describe. Beads are for heavy, thick stuff like bumpers, but warps sheet metal. I do a little MIG blast about 1/8" diameter no less than an inch or so apart, then come back and do more after the metal cools. I like your brother's rotisserie, on the Land Cruiser List we've often talked about making one of those for doing FJ40 tubs.

Another trick for patching narrow gaps is to place the patch from behind, and zap that to the edge from the front (finish side) and fill with weld. I am not a big fan of this though, unless the gap is less then an 1/4" wide.

My plan is to butt weld rather than lap weld, so top versus bottom isn't really applicable, other than it's easier to manage the puddle from top versus bottom. Here's an example of the technique I wrote about above:

 

[Rzeppa]

Below is where I cut out the offending section, and below that is smithing the cut section's bend out to be reapplied to fill the gap, at the correct profile/angle. It's unclear whether this piece will work and I may have to simply cut a new piece out of fresh metal. I clamped and unclamped the original B-pillar/lip onto the top of the new rockers several times during this process, and getting the curve and angle using the cut-out piece just right doesn't seem in the works.

 

[Beater]

awesome.

on those fillets, you may want to start the puddle in the middle rather than on one side and then pulling the puddle for the spots, less warpage, and more strength. You won't need to play with the puddle much, but a slight "whip" will give more size and a flatter bead, with less haf than the "cross connect" method.

is this a 110v machine? if so, good on ya. What filler material are you using? Esab makes some wire especially made for low amperage sheet work, that gives a flatter bead.

 

[Red_Chili]

Sorry I posted up so late, Jeff. I have a plasma cutter. Looks like you no longer need it!

 

[Rzeppa]

awesome.

on those fillets, you may want to start the puddle in the middle rather than on one side and then pulling the puddle for the spots, less warpage, and more strength. You won't need to play with the puddle much, but a slight "whip" will give more size and a flatter bead, with less haf than the "cross connect" method.

Thanks John; I do generally start in the middle and then whip, but it kind of depends on the angle of the parts (90°) in the above example and the angle of the workpiece (from top versus side versus <shudder> from underneath).

is this a 110v machine? if so, good on ya. What filler material are you using? Esab makes some wire especially made for low amperage sheet work, that gives a flatter bead.

Indeed, it's a Millermatic 130, using .023 solid with 25/75 CO2/Argon. The wire's whatever they sell at US Welding off Santa Fe and I25. Not sure what you mean by "filler": I do the spots, then grind 'em down flush, then for paint prep I use regular bondo and sandpaper.

Below are some more representative shots of the type of technique I was referring to. These were from when I was repairing the box section of the floor. I was hoping to get some more progress done this evening, but between CM preparations and family matters it looks like it'll have to wait.