Lets discuss Tow Vehicle capability spec vs safe trailer weight over our Mtn passes

[Romer]

You may have noticed I am selling my 40. The last few years I have only driven it about once a month. (Photo by TreerootCO)

I also have a BMW Z4. Pretty fun to drive especially with the top down. As long as there issn’t snow on the ground, this is the vehicle I typically use for short errands as long as I don’t need to haul anything. Not much room for picking up stuff

My wife won’t ride in either of these so the 200 gets the work when we go places together or I need to haul something or bad weather. She doesn’t like the Z4 because it is too small and low to the ground.

Neither of these vehicles give me a lot of Utility

The 200 series is a keeper. Does everything I want and after 8 years of ownership has 97K miles on the clock

Over the years I have thought it would be great if I had a truck for getting stuff from the hardware store, hauling stuff to family, etc. It would provide utility I don’t have. My wife would also ride in it or even drive it if need be. I know, get the Tundra. The Tundra’s length would fit in my garage, but it would force me to modify some of my work bench area. Plus it is wide. I feel it is too big for what I want, but not ruled completely out.

I have been reading reviews and watching videos on the Tacoma 4th gen out now and am intrigued. The 4th gen update is really nice with the rear coils, 14” entertainment system yada yada

I like the changes to the 4th gen including rear coils instead of leaf springs and the updated interior and entertainment system. However, no experience in a Tacoma so can only go off the reviews posted on-line comparing 2023 vs 2024


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnapCwZ2YfE


I would sell the 40 and likely trade the BMW Z4 in unless I buy an older Truck

The two models I am looking at are the Tacoma TRD Offroad with I4 (not Imax hybrid) and the TRD Pro which only comes with the 1-Max Hybrid

So Romer, what does this have to do with Towing? I am glad you asked

I am keeping the 200 as my main wheeling and camping vehicle. But you never know the future, so if I buy a truck it has to be capable of off roading where I like to go and tow my Kimberley Karavan.

The 2023 Tacoma TRD Off Road and TRD Pro both have a capability of 6500 pounds towing with the I6

The 2024 TRD Off road (non hybrid) has a capability of 6500 pounds

The 2024 TRD Pro with the iMAX Hybrid has a capability of 6000 pounds as does the TRD Offroad with the i-Max. The Hybrid system due to its weight reduces the towing capability by 500 pounds. This is also the capability for the new Toyota Land Cruiser 250 (I-Max engine)

Interesting enough my 100 series had a capability of 6500 pounds so assuming the performance is similar. Slow slow and steady up a Mtn pass

I read someplace a safe factor for your actual towing weight to capability is 75%. Have no idea if true or valid

So that would mean I6, and I-4 non Hybrid Tacoma’s shouldn’t tow anything greater than 4875 pounds to be safe

I-4 I-Max Hybrid Tacoma’s (and LC 250) shouldn’t tow anything greater than 4500 pounds to be safe.

Come on Romer get to the point

I want to make sure whatever I get can safely tow my Kimberley Karavan over the Mtn passes. It isn’t a primary vehicle so Towing capability performance (i.e speed up the pass) isn’t a driver, only that it can safely tow if I decide to take a Tacoma to Moab one year

The specs on my Kimberley Karavan

Dry weight – 3550 pounds based on actual measurements from owners in Australia

Gross Weight fully loaded -4850 pounds fully loaded based on actual measurements. However 418 pounds is two full water tanks and 70 pounds are two jerry cans. I could fill the water tanks in Moab or after the passes. I Know someone who does this with a larger and heavy trailer being pulled by a 200. So I could reduce the weight 250 (Half tanks)- 500 (empty) pounds depending on how full and how much extra gas I carry and fill up in the flatlands. Kimberley specs the GVWR at 5500 pounds, I am using actual measurements from several Australian owners fully loaded.

My view is I should base it off being fully loaded;

• Any 2023 Tacoma model can safely tow it
• The 2024 Tacoma TRD Off Road non Hybrid version could safely haul it
• If I reduce the water I carry, then even the I-Max Hybrid vehicles could carry it

I know, Romer just get a Tundra.

Really looking at the Tacoma right now 😊

No I am not asking you which Tacoma to get. My question is relative to towing and what is safe based on specified Trailering capability for the vehicle. Maybe because Toyota is conservative, anything up to the spec limit is safe?? This is where I could use some help. I intentionally did not include the hitch weight in this discussion. I don’t see that as an issue.

Sorry for the long winded post. Thought it would help to understand why I am thinking about it

Thoughts? Any real world data or better information out there on this topic?

Lets discuss looking at Vehicle Trailering Capability towards what is actually safe to tow over our Mountain Passes

 

[AlpineAccess]

After experience with all of the vehicles you mentioned for towing, I would say you're on track with your thoughts to just get the Tundra. It's where we ended up and it's solid. I won't act like I have a ton of data points or a long winded scientific explanation.

The Tacoma was gutless and got pushed around. It's not going up as much as it was cornering and slowing down a load from I-70 speeds. I liked towing with the 100 but it was draining over a long distance. The Tundra just does it so well and you don't feel like you're being hard on it. I really enjoyed towing with a 200. It was more maneuverable than the tundra and more comfortable.

I wouldn't rule out other brands. Our Ecoboost F150 was a phenomenal tow vehicle and off roaded well on milder stuff.

I also would just get a nice utility trailer if you want more utility and use the 200 to tow it.

 

[Romer]

After experience with all of the vehicles you mentioned for towing, I would say you're on track with your thoughts to just get the Tundra. It's where we ended up and it's solid. I won't act like I have a ton of data points or a long winded scientific explanation.

The Tacoma was gutless and got pushed around. It's not going up as much as it was cornering and slowing down a load from I-70 speeds. I liked towing with the 100 but it was draining over a long distance. The Tundra just does it so well and you don't feel like you're being hard on it. I really enjoyed towing with a 200. It was more maneuverable than the tundra and more comfortable.

I wouldn't rule out other brands. Our Ecoboost F150 was a phenomenal tow vehicle and off roaded well on milder stuff.

I also would just get a nice utility trailer if you want more utility and use the 200 to tow it.

Thanks Jack,
My thought though are not to get the Tundra

I am wanting to know if it is safe and capable or what is safe and capable as this would not be my wheeling tow rig. That is the 200 series with the big 5.7. Primarily looking for a mid sized truck for city driving and Home Depot runs that can Offroad and Tow

 

[RayRay27]

My rule of thumb is always buy more truck then trailer if you can afford it. It drives me nuts when I see a Honda Passport towing a 27 foot camper that weights 5,000lbs and the ass is dragging down the road trying to go over Vail or Eisenhower pass. Just because your owners manual says the vehicle is rated to tow 5000lbs doesn't mean you should or even try.

I spent a lot of time trying to decide between a Taco and a Tundra for towing a small camper (2000 to 4000lbs) and I always found my self going back to the Tundra. Of course my choice was made prior to the new Taco and was based on the 3.5 V6 and not Turbo I4.

The new Taco has some great features now that the last generation didn't have like an integrated trailer break controller, new 8 speed trans, an actual tow-haul mode, and towing cameras. But even with the new turbo I4 which make something like 50 more pound-feet tourqe compared to the old 3.5 V6, you're always gonna be running in the higher RPM range when going over any mountain pass in Colorado. When compared to the Tundra, I don't know how more efficient a smaller Turbo I4 truck would be compared to a full-size with a TT 3.4 V6.

Also the new Taco is getting into Tundra SR5 price territory which almost makes it a no brainer when comparing the two as tow rigs.

I don't know if I helped or hurt your case when thinking about a new tow rig.


View: https://youtu.be/2Zn3vkEGlvQ

 

[Romer]

Thanks Ray. I was just watching their review of the 2016 doing that run with an I6 engine so like a 2023. That was what I was looking for. Going up and down Eisenhower/Summit was great

Maybe I haven't been clear on my intentions. I am not looking for a new Tow vehicle. If I was, the Tundra would be a no brainer. The 200 is and will be my Tow Vehicle until it gets replaced by another vehicle like a GX550 that has sufficient towing specs for a good drive and Tow. I see that a few years down the line if at all. I do love the 200!

I am looking for a mid sized truck, that could tow my camper safely in a pinch. Towing capability isnt a driver for me, but being able to tow safely if for example the 200 breaks down is a factor. I am in research mode and not fully locked into something. It actually started due to the glut of Ford F150 lightening's, the $12.5K of incentives and the ability to negotiate. Then I figured that truck in the smallest size is still too big for what I want from a Garage perspective based on my setup. The Tundra is the same size. That is why I went to midsized truck, but I also want to be able to offroad without the trailer along the front range and that is why I was looking at the Tacoma. The 200 is big and the Tundra is bigger. I definitely don't want to wheel in anything bigger than the 200. The main decision driver is like a town daily driver with OffRoad 2nd and towing safely third.

That is why I tried to focus on safe towing numbers vs best tow rig. The Ford F350 would probably be the best

The Tacoma 2024 TRD I4 (Non Hybrid) Offroad and the 2023 Toyota Pro I6 are the ones I am thinking about

Between the video you posted and the one I looked at below, it looks like the 2024 does better (Non Hybrid) than the 3rd gen I6. These guys were trying to maintain 60 up Summit which I don't even do in my 200 to keep temps down. As long as it safely can do 40-50mph, that would work. I would be concerned about Tranny temps pushing it like they did. The trailers in both test cases was bigger and heavier than mine, 6500 vs 4880 pounds for my Karavan. or 4300 going east with empty water tanks

I may also look at the Chevy Colorado. I am a Toyota guy though


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCkBmiZV09w

 

[Romer]

I would still like to verify the numbers even if minimal margin show they work. I don't want to exceed stated capability and the payload numbers would likely be lighter than spec'd as just me and possibly one other with about 400 pounds of gear

One thing is going up west to east, my tanks are always empty on the way home so 500 pounds lighter, dumping jerry can fuel into truck before heading out. Those are both the hardest runs on Vail and Summit

FWIW Karavan Tongue Weight: 300 – 575 lbs. which is within the Tacoma specs

 

[Romer]

I should also mention my Karavan is shorter in height and narrower than what they tested with. It has the same width as my 200

I wouldn't be doing this with it, but shows size relative the truck (Photo by Daniel Markofsky)

 

[Corbet]

Personally I’d take the hybrid over the non with the Tacoma based on your posts. Either should tow your trailer in a pinch. But the extra power of the I-force max should be nice as a DD. Should be nicer towing around town. Dead stops, constant varied speeds. On the long pull up I-70 time will tell. We don’t know yet if the truck will have enough in her to recharge the system on lesser grades and continue to deliver the juice when needed.

 

[Pz10420]

Personally I’d take the hybrid over the non with the Tacoma based on your posts. Either should tow your trailer in a pinch. But the extra power of the I-force max should be nice as a DD. Should be nicer towing around town. Dead stops, constant varied speeds. On the long pull up I-70 time will tell. We don’t know yet if the truck will have enough in her to recharge the system on lesser grades and continue to deliver the juice when needed.

I agree here. If you are going to do most of the towing work with the 200 and this truck will just be a backup for towing duty, then I would just buy the Taco that you really want. It sounds like it will do the job if you needed it to, especially if you were able to keep the weight down while traveling by reducing the tank fill. I am sure you could find some other stuff to leave at home as well if you did have to take the Taco on a towing trip. But this is also coming from someone who tows a pop up with an 80 and finds a tractor trailer that I know wont be able to maintain speed on the passes and I just cruise behind them at 25mph up some of the grades around here.

 

[Romer]

To the numbers to show compliance

Do I take the Trailer Capability- Vehicle Payload- Trailer Weight and if it is positive I am in "Technical Compliance"?

I saw some sites were they also subtract Tongue weight and others they didn't

 

[J1000]

I would say that your trailer is too heavy for the Tacoma. One thing missing from the calculation is the short length and mid-mounted axle of the Kimberly Karavan. That style is sometimes called a "pig trailer." With trailers of that style, you never want the tow vehicle to be lighter than the trailer under any circumstances. Those types of trailers are very unstable compared to a longer trailer with the axle mounted further to the rear. The heaviest 2024 Tacoma comes in around 4500 lbs, so it's going to be susceptible to being pushed around by the Kimberly. Stick with the 200 or yes, a Tundra.

I would double down and say this is extra true for your use case of "mountain passes." When going downhill the weight shift forwards causes these trailers to be even more unstable, then combine that with twisty roads, so many potholes and other damage, and crazy traffic patterns.

I listen to John Cadogan on youtube and he constantly rants against this type of stuff. Here's a good video explaining the physics of different trailer types.

 

[DaveInDenver]

@Romer

Tongue weight may go against payload and axle ratings but in my owner's manual Toyota says it doesn't matter. That may be different for other vehicles.



Trailer gross weight is added to vehicle + passenger + cargo.

Using my truck since the numbers I know.

GVWR is 5,350 lbs. Curb weight is (roughly) 3950 lbs dry. Full gas tank adds 133 lbs so truck is really 4,083 lbs base weight.

I know my truck fueled with all the stuff (winch, bumpers, sliders, WilderNest) I've done to it is ~4,800 lbs.

With Kirsten, dog and me the truck weighs around 5,100 lbs. Add in camping stuff and let's say we're at 5,300 for nice numbers.

Toyota says cargo is not to exceed 905 lbs in my truck with 2 people. I hit that alright, around 900 lbs when you add up modifications, WilderNest, camping stuff. I have about 50 lbs of positive margin on paper.

Toyota also limits total combined vehicle and trailer 11,100 lbs.

Toyota rated my truck for 6,500 lbs towing with 10% tongue, so 650 lbs for normal, or 20% with weigh distributing, so 1,300 lbs.

My front axle rating is 2,755 lbs and rear is 3,110 lbs.

Notice first that not all the numbers are mutually compatible. You may hit one maximum before you hit another.

I'm at roughly 2,400 lbs front and 2,900 lbs rear at camping load.

So the capacity on paper of my truck is 3,110 - 2,900 = 210 lbs tongue if I assume all that load is on the rear axle. Aw shucks. But axle weight isn't important per the owner's manual unless you're doing a slide-in camper.

Trailer weight + GVWR = 6500 + 5350 = 11,850 lbs. So right off the bat I have to either limit trailer to 11,100 - 5,300 = 5,800 lbs (trailer limit) or 11,100 - 6,500 = 4,600 lbs (vehicle limit). You can see Toyota knows to hit 6,500 lbs means you have a pretty minimally loaded truck. I'd suggest saving weight not running a shell or bumpers, for example.

FWIW I've towed as much as 4,000 lbs with my truck and I would not recommend it. It's not getting it moving, it's stopping. The brakes are not great. Now this was a U-Haul with a tongue activated surge brake. So a good controller would help this of course. But west side of Vail was slow going, not easy to keep the brakes from fading.

It's just my $0.02 that ~3,500 lbs is about the top end of comfortable on a Tacoma that's typically built with passengers in the mountains.

Also I think the 2024 got rear disk brakes but a 2023 AFAIK still has drums like mine. This can't hurt.

 

[Romer]

I would say that your trailer is too heavy for the Tacoma. One thing missing from the calculation is the short length and mid-mounted axle of the Kimberly Karavan. That style is sometimes called a "pig trailer." With trailers of that style, you never want the tow vehicle to be lighter than the trailer under any circumstances. Those types of trailers are very unstable compared to a longer trailer with the axle mounted further to the rear. The heaviest 2024 Tacoma comes in around 4500 lbs, so it's going to be susceptible to being pushed around by the Kimberly. Stick with the 200 or yes, a Tundra.

I would double down and say this is extra true for your use case of "mountain passes." When going downhill the weight shift forwards causes these trailers to be even more unstable, then combine that with twisty roads, so many potholes and other damage, and crazy traffic patterns.

I listen to John Cadogan on youtube and he constantly rants against this type of stuff. Here's a good video explaining the physics of different trailer types.

Thanks Jimmy
Interesting video. I will have to watch it again

I was aware of the stability issue and added a draw bar extension to my Karavan while it was being built in Australia along with beefy anti-sway bars. Its not as short a distance as a stock Karavan

What I read is the 4500 pounds is the dry or empty curb weight of the Tacoma. I will look more at it

Again, not shopping for a Tow vehicle. Being able to tow in a pinch is 3rd and lowest priority for me. A pinch could mean tanks are required to be empty so 4300 lb trailer loaded. Or I could even move gear from Karavan to truck if needed. Dry weight of Karavan is 3500 pounds

and @DaveInDenver - Thanks for your write-up. They do have 4 disc brakes now. Coils all around instead of leaf springs and an integrated tow package that has additional capabilities

So far I have ruled out the 3rd gen Tacoma based on discussion here. Thanks for that. Still more work to do like going through that Physics video again.

I need to look more at the new Tow Mode in the 4th gen. You select Tow mode and it states it does the following

The Toyota Tow/Haul Mode allows your pickup truck to hold lower gears longer and avoid excess gear shifts when towing, increases throttle response, improves towing power and upgrades engine braking

I know, get a Tundra I really like what I see in the 4th gen Taco.

 

[Corbet]

Don't get the Tundra for DD duties just to maybe tow the trailer occasionally. You towed trailers with older landcruisers. You know what you're getting into. Tacoma should be better that that with the specs on paper.

 

[DaveInDenver]

https://assets.sia.toyota.com/publications/en/om-s/OM04041U/pdf/OM04041U.pdf

So assuming you're getting a high trim 4 door truck, say TZNA45L-PRFSZA which is short (5 foot) box Double Cab TRD Off Road.

GVWR is 6,175 lbs
Payload is 1,270 lbs
GAWR front is 3,480 lbs
GAWR rear is 3,275 lbs
GCWR is 11,515 lbs.
TWR is 6,400 lbs

Toyota doesn't provide curb weight but inferring GVWR - payload -> 6,175 lbs - 1,270 lbs = 4,905 lbs.

You usually assume 150 lbs per occupant but if you know actual you could do the math. The fuel tank is 18.2 gallons so 6.26 lbs/gal gets you 114 lbs.

4,905 + 2 x 150 + 114 = 5,319 lbs base weight.

So with no other modifications you can carry 856 lbs of cargo and 5,340 lbs of trailer and stay under their stated maximums.

Or biasing for trailer a 6,400 lbs trailer would let you carry 404 lbs of payload with 2 people and a full tank.

Either way seems like for occasional towing your Kimberly you'll be OK. It'll still probably be kinda slow and just keep an eye on cooling and braking. And to Jimmy's point regards to physics of the tail wagging the dog, Toyota recommends weight distributing hitch with a Tacoma for a trailer more than 2,000 lbs.

One thing to note the SAE a few years ago pushed for a uniform way to rate towing, which is SAE J2807 that is mentioned. That test is done the same way on all trucks and the Tacoma SAE J2807 rating is 3,500 lbs TWR, not 6,500 lbs. J2807 requires pulling up a grade, testing acceleration, cooling and braking capacity. Supposedly a real world normalizing test. So just a FYI.

I find it interesting that the Tacoma GVWR is above 6,000 lbs. That puts it into class 2A light trucks. Basically it's a full size 1/2 ton equivalent. Mini trucks from 79-95 and 95-23 Tacoma were all class 1. But they were also on the order of 1,000 lbs to 1,500 lbs lighter curb weight.

There's a few reasons for that. One was the chicken tax (anti-competition with Big 3) and for road fees. I wonder if the taxes and registration for a 2024 Tacoma will be more, for example.

Attached all the relevant pages (pp199-205, pp662-668) as JPGs, they were just pulled from that manual PDF I linked.

 

[Romer]

BTW- I hear you guys. It is not the best tow vehicle. I realize my response may be coming across as thick headed. I really just wanted this thread to result in math to show either compliant or non compliant. that is why it may seem I have been block headed to your discussion on a better tow rig. That isn't what I was after here. Thanks @DaveInDenver for helping me with what I was looking for. I thought It was ok, but saw a lot of conflicting sites on how to determine it.

Being an engineer there are two parts I evaluate things to; Compliance and margin. Sometimes you take solutions with no margin on some capabilities that are still compliant based on other factors and evaluation criteria. Everything is about finding the right balance to your needs

@J1000 thanks for the video link. I rewatched it and the engineer in me really enjoyed it as I took time to understand what he was saying. I did not see what you were discussing in a Pig trailer nor anything that would say can't tow with it. Note I didnt say you should The Tacoma is heavier than the Karavan and can be "substantially" heavier draining tanks and loading the truck. He didn't really define substantial, but I would consider anything greater than 10% in that category. I watched several of his videos and enjoyed them. This one is also relative to towing


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUDFWQ5QhI

 

[baileyfj40]

My 02, after growing up in the mountains of Colorado and driving all over the western United States and western provinces of Canada all the way to the oil fields of the north slope of Alaska. Watching people towing bigger and heavier trailers with lighter and more powerful vehicles of all favors, I look at the ablitity to slow and stop these moving masses. That is the reasoning behind my going to 1 ton pickups for the heavier towing. 4wheel disc brakes.
Yes Ken, I do understand not all need the size of a 1 ton pickup and parking them can be a pain.
P.s. is it just me or am I nutz, seam to only hear about pulling power of vehicles not so much about stopping power and stopping on a steep downgrade with heavy trailer pushing you down that grade.

 

[J1000]

@J1000 thanks for the video link. I rewatched it and the engineer in me really enjoyed it as I took time to understand what he was saying. I did not see what you were discussing in a Pig trailer nor anything that would say can't tow with it. Note I didnt say you should The Tacoma is heavier than the Karavan and can be "substantially" heavier draining tanks and loading the truck. He didn't really define substantial, but I would consider anything greater than 10% in that category. I watched several of his videos and enjoyed them. This one is also relative to towing


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUDFWQ5QhI

About 24 minutes in he starts talking about the factors that contribute to stability. He has about a hundred videos ranting about towing so it's hard to pick one perfect video. Here's another one (plus written article) where he rants about pig trailers specifically: https://autoexpert.com.au/towing/how-to-prevent-crashes

It seems like you've already taken that into account with the lengthening of the draw bar and sway bar so feel free to disregard!

 

[Romer]

This discussion also reminded me of something. My defined tow vehicle (200 series) is a perfect tow vehicle for my trailer. I belong to an Australian Karavan forum and 80% of the members use a 200 series. The Australian Physics guy loves the 200 series. This has made me want to keep my 200 longer.

This has been about a new daily driver with some utility my wife will ride in that can tow in a pinch. I do believe having a second offroad vehicle is a good thing to have as well.

 

[AlpineAccess]

I guess I misunderstood; you had focused a lot in your initial post about towing capability. If it was just getting a daily driver for utility and towing in a pinch, I'd go with a mid-size. I think the Tacoma fits the bill well.

Getting away from the tow debate, I have owned several generations of Tacoma and two generations of Tundra. You've listed almost all new models of vehicle which I understand, so wasn't sure if you're open to a used vehicle. But I found the 1st gen Tundra to be the perfect blended daily driver of being able to tow my ski boat around the front range and still have a big enough bed to be useful. Plenty of power where it was needed and stable at speed.

My Tacoma's bed was a joke and power wise I had to ring the thing's neck to find pulling power. Sometimes "paper-power" just doesn't translate well to real world utility. Even the extended cab's bed was just small; and the double cab is tiny. There isn't anything that fit in my double cab Tacoma's bed that I don't think I could have put into my 100 series with the rear seats removed.

You're right in the 200 being as good of a tow rig for your camper as I personally can think of! A 200 vs a newer Tacoma isn't a huge size difference, and for utility I'd grab a nice trailer that can be moved around by hand and you'll have all the utility you need. Clearly you have great towing skills if you're pulling a KK offroad. But that isn't what you asked about.