Lets discuss off road recovery gear

[Romer]

My current kit includes:

• ARB ARB710LB 3-1/4" x 30' Recovery Snatch Strap Minimum Breaking Strength 24000 lbs Kinetic Stretch 20% With Reinforced Eyes and Protector Sleeves
• Tree saver strap
• 4 D rings
• Snatch Block - 200 only
• Gloves - several pairs per vehicle
• ARB Hydraulic Jack- on 200, but portable
• 2 MaxTrax recovery boards- 200 only
• Warn winch (12K steel on 200, 10K synthetic line Taco)

And I will look at adding two soft shackles for the 200 at first to try them out

My strap has some Kinetic capabailities, but not as much as a Kinetic rope. You can tow with a recovery strap, but can't snatch with a Tow strap and you don't have to use the Kinetic abilities. That is why I bought this one and replaced the tow strap I had 10 years ago.

I use to carry the Slee Jac-off tool as well. Never used it so sitting on a shelf now.

I have been debating on changing the 12K to synthetic line. The steel cable is still in great shape and has never failed me though

Not quite what Matt has

 

[Romer]

Factor 55 rope retention pulley. Looks like Iron Man has something similar for less. Looks like a good reaon to upgrade the 200 winch line to synthetic and toss the heavy snatch block

Two demos one a redirect on UTV and the other a double pull on a toyota

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDwpXS1JpKE



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnz7OvJ2I7s

 

[DaveInDenver]

FWIW ASR Offroad also sells traceable and rated soft rigging. Most of my soft stuff and such are from them.

Synthetic Winch Ropes, Kinetic Recovery Straps & 4x4 Accessories | ASR Offroad

ASR Offroad offers a variety of 4x4 accessories including synthetic winch ropes, tow straps, kinetic vehicle recovery straps and snatch blocks for 4x4’s, ATV’s and UTV’s.

www.asroffroad.com

@Romer, I wouldn't toss out perfectly good rigging. Add a couple of soft shackles if you want but a kinetic strap works the same as a kinetic rope, just has slightly less elongation. You're not supposed to be doing 3rd gear, high RPM hits on kinetic ropes/straps, the intention is to store your recovery energy and lengthen the release of it, not multiply it a bunch using velocity. In terms of our world we're trying to make an steep impulse step into a ramp so there's less damaging overshoot.

 

[Romer]

I was looking at the ASR. These are 10" long, I think thats as a shackle and the choice is 3/8 or 7/16. for $2 more the thicker one has a 700lb higher working load limit of 9400 lbs. I am assuming either one would be just fine. Am I looking at these correctly? Right size and strength?

This was intersting. I was searching for strength and length recommendations for soft shackles. This test in Australia compares them and hard shackles.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66BXmM_JuBI

 

[DaveInDenver]

I've seen some that got overloaded.

 

[On the RX]

Just need to find space for an air fryer...

Overland expo probably has someone there selling swingout attachments for the rear bumper, or you could always use some self tapping screws to slap it on the side window where everyone is hanging rotopaX!

 

[Inukshuk]

@Romer. I’m about to take off on a 14 hour flight. That might be enough time to read this.
Let’s get lunch!

 

[Romer]

Lets talk Snatch Blocks and determing requirements

Since I converted to Synthetic, I am going to replace my Snatch Block

For my heavy Land Cruiser, guessing 7000-8000 pounds loaded wanting to make sure the Working Load should I be looking for?

I am wanting a light weight Snatch Block as my current old style ARB is very heavy. I also am looking for softer material around the pulley to reduce heat. I also want one that would work for both vehicles with 7/16 and 3/8" winch rope.

I listed three snatch blocks below and ruled out two as I was going through them. I left them here to help with the discussion on determing what working load and breaking strength I shoulld be looking for.

There is this one from ARB. This looks like it will easily work. It is the heavist of the ones I am looking at

Specifications:

• Working Load: 20,000lbs (9000kg)
• Breaking Strength: 38,500lb (17,500kg)
• Side Plate Material: 6mm cold rolled steel
• Pulley Material: Specialized Polymer
• Pulley Diameter: 4.3in (110mm)
• Cable Size: 0.3"-0.5" (8mm - 13mm)
• Weight: 5.3lb (2.4kg)
• Greasable: not required

This one from TRE. Lightest weight at 2.2 lbs. I decided against this after calling them (see below).

• Designed to be used with a Soft-Shackle anchor attachment
• Maintenance Free design
• Heavy duty Nylatron self lubricating pulley
• Lightweight – ONLY 2 lbs.
• Precision Machined from 6061-T6 aircraft grade Aluminum
• Designed specifically for use with synthetic winch rope only, up to 7/16″ diameter
• For use with Winches up to 20,000 lbs.
• Easy to use smooth edge swing block
• Can be used with standard 3/4″ steel bow shackle
• Easy to store due to compact lightweight design
• MIL-A 8625 Type III Hard Anodized Black for abrasion resistance and finish protection
• Tested to 40, 000 lbs.
• 100% Made in USA

This one from Master Pull. Seems to have the lowest specs, but is the WLL of 15K pounds more than enough for my application? I am thinking it would be. I noticed after evaluating a few of them it states max rope size is 3/8" and I am using 7/16" so this won't work for me

Specifications​

3.7 lbs (1.68 kg)

30,000 lbs (13,610 kg)

15,000 lbs (6,800 kg)

3/8" (9.5 mm)

3/4" (7/8" diameter pin)

Synthetic rope only

[td]Weight[/td] [td]Breaking Strength[/td] [td]Max Load[/td] [td]Max Rope Diameter[/td] [td]Max Shackle Size[/td] [td]Applications[/td]

The TRE looks great at 2.2 lbs. Concern is it says for winches up to 20K pounds rather than a working load spec. It also says tested to 40K pounds rather thaan Breaking strength. I called TRE to ask about this and they said this is for rope sizes up to 3/8" and that is how they tested it with no real info on how tested or clear data results. Thier web site says 7/16" max. This makes me concerned enough to pass

The Master Pull is in the middle weight wize, but not sure it has the specs for my application. Reviewing testing with TRE made me realize this states for rope size up to 3/8" max diamter, so this one would not work with my 7/16" rope. Hopefully my lapse looking over the specs on their web site will help someone else. So Master Pull will not work for the 200, but would work for the Tacoma with 3/8" rope.

The ARB one seems like it would cover the basis, but is the heavist. It is also the less expensive option. The extra weight isn't much, just a data point.

My question is how do I determine the minimum specs for my application as I may look at others. Max rope size is an easy one now that I looked through these. What Working load and breaking strength is sufficient including normal margin for me?

 

[nakman]

ok just to toss some gas on the fire here.... why wouldn't you want your pulley block to be the weakest rated thing in the whole rig? Figuring it's gong to separate at the pulley, stay attached to your shackle, then send a synthetic line down to the ground... maybe a little grooved wheel rolls away, seems like the best failure mode right? If you over rate your pulley block then push your rig to its breaking point, what's the next thing that breaks, and what does that look like when it happens? Like wouldn't you rather the pulley break, then your tree saver? If the tree saver snaps then the whole pulley block comes flying towards you.

My opinion is your weakest point is likely vehicle attachment (or the vehicle you're trying to recover) followed by the shackle used and/or how it's orientated. 3rd is a fatigue or rip in your synthetic line. I feel you have a long way to go before the actual pulley block is the weakness.

 

[Romer]

Thanks Tim. That's something I hadn't thought of

 

[Inukshuk]

Thanks Tim. That's something I hadn't thought of

With respect to Tim, its is not something you should be thinking of. Rig appropriate to the load with appropriate safety factors and then trust the equipment. Don't rig with any "fuse" in mind. In C04x4RnR we have gone to adding safety lanyards in key spots of complex rigging in an effort to restrain any metal components were something to let go.

Consensus 'opinion' (not fact) is a 2:1 safety factor is acceptable in winching when manufacturer has not specified a WLL. That is roughly what ARB has with 20,000/38,000.

Master Pull makes a good product.

TRE - interesting. Takes cues from SafeXtract's Patented design.

SafeXtract pulley block *IS* (opinion based on features and specs) the bees knees! Be ready - $370.00

Overall, ARB

You wrote "I am wanting a light weight Snatch Block as my current old style ARB is very heavy." My opinion is pulley block weight should only matter if you plan to carry gear long distances or are SF being air-dropped. Even then, priority should be function. Pulley blocks are generally heavy.

Sheave size (the wheel) is an important factor. I grabbed a nice 30,000 lb Master Pull for $50 at KOH only to later discover the sheave will only work with 3/8 wire. Synthetic needs a groove at least as deep as the entire diameter. Wire is ok with a radius deep groove.

PS. Go weigh the truck. Then no guessing.

 

[nakman]

Every time I rig something up I consider where is it most likely to fail. That usually helps dictate what we monitor closely, and where we stand. Not saying put a fuse in the system, but just think in terms of how is this rigging going to go south, if at all. I'll maintain #1 is where something is attached to a vehicle- from your worst case being a tow ball or drop hitch, then a non-rated loop transit tie down deal, up to your thin aluminum recovery point welded to a bumper, etc. there's a spectrum here, but my own experience is this is where most failures occur. @Inukshuk do you have any data that supports/refutes that? I'm remembering that picture of yours of a transit loop in an 80 window.

Second failure point IMO is what is attached to the vehicle- soft shackle, bow shackle, etc. again Daniel same question.... from my experience this is the next point to fail, ahead of the actual line breaking. Usually a soft shackle set up wrong, or bow shackle that got twisted sideways (pictures above)

And then way down the line to me is the actual pulley block, but if one were to fail it's probably the snap ring that holds the main pin (axle) in place, allowing the pulley to slide off. Using synthetic line, I wonder just how far that pulley would actually travel. If I get to pick a failure, I might still choose that one, as the result just feels less exciting.

 

[Hulk]

I purchased the SafeXtract 20K Pulley Block: https://www.asroffroad.com/sx-20000g-pulley-block/
It's pretty sweet. I expect my great great grandchildren will use it.

 

[Romer]

You wrote "I am wanting a light weight Snatch Block as my current old style ARB is very heavy." My opinion is pulley block weight should only matter if you plan to carry gear long distances or are SF being air-dropped. Even then, priority should be function. Pulley blocks are generally heavy.

Since I am getting a new one, lighter weight is a desire. You have a good point

SafeXtract pulley block *IS* (opinion based on features and specs) the bees knees! Be ready - $370.00

I purchased the SafeXtract 20K Pulley Block: https://www.asroffroad.com/sx-20000g-pulley-block/
It's pretty sweet. I expect my great great grandchildren will use it.

That is the beez kneez. I like that one. Thanks for the option @Inukshuk & @Hulk . I can't see what the largest diameter line it takes is. I called Safe-Extract and they said 1/2". He also discussed how each one is made. Very impressive

I also sent an email to TRE asking them for clarifcation on testing and line size. The sales lady asked someone standing next to her, so not sure how accurate that was. Still don't like the unclear specs

This is a good discussion. I tend to agree with @Inukshuk as I don't like to design with a known weaker link. Although it is a factor to consider in Mechanical design depending on the application. I am not dismissing it as a valid concept.

 

[Romer]

I purchased the SafeXtract 20K Pulley Block: https://www.asroffroad.com/sx-20000g-pulley-block/
It's pretty sweet. I expect my great great grandchildren will use it.

Did you get the case? If so, would you recommend it or is it to bulky?

They have some nice tutorials and I watched the video on their app

 

[Inukshuk]

Every time I rig something up I consider where is it most likely to fail.

For sure

Not saying put a fuse in the system, but just think in terms of how is this rigging going to go south, if at all.

Roger

I'll maintain #1 is where something is attached to a vehicle- from your worst case being a tow ball or drop hitch, then a non-rated loop transit tie down deal, up to your thin aluminum recovery point welded to a bumper, etc. there's a spectrum here, but my own experience is this is where most failures occur. @Inukshuk do you have any data that supports/refutes that? I'm remembering that picture of yours of a transit loop in an 80 window.

I have no data on "where most failures occur"

When my loop failed (some Toyota owner manuals call it a tow point), it was discovered (by visible rust in break area vs shiny metal) to have existing damage from repeated rock hits.

Second failure point IMO is what is attached to the vehicle- soft shackle, bow shackle, etc. again Daniel same question.... from my experience this is the next point to fail, ahead of the actual line breaking. Usually a soft shackle set up wrong, or bow shackle that got twisted sideways (pictures above)

Most OE "recovery points" or "tow loops" are rated WLL 1.5 x GVWR. This unofficial comes from two OE manufacturers.
Aftermarket points are anyone guess - except ARB and Ironman rate theirs and the "URB" has also been tested (by it's developer and prior business owner) (its a bent 1/2" plate). A thick steel plate bolted to the frame with grade 10.9 bolts will bend the frame before it fails.
I'll always trust a thick steel Slee bumper attached with about 12 - 16 bolts!

And then way down the line to me is the actual pulley block, but if one were to fail it's probably the snap ring that holds the main pin (axle) in place, allowing the pulley to slide off. Using synthetic line, I wonder just how far that pulley would actually travel. If I get to pick a failure, I might still choose that one, as the result just feels less exciting.

I have no data on any pulley blocks failing. The ARB one Ken posted is supposed to never break below 38,000. That's nearly 2x the winch line. In testing they could not fail the SafeXtract pulley block. They could not fit a synthetic rope between the cheeks large enough to break it. The poly sheave deformed but the axle did not fail. That is why the higher rated version has an aluminum sheave.

Mostly I hear of the winch stalling or the winch line failing at the end of the tail in the deep bury.

If you are rigged properly with good equipment the winch will stall before any gear breaks.


Winching is controlled and predictable. Dynamic (kinetic rope) recoveries are different but can be done with control and predictability.

• Forces increase dramatically with speed.
• Heavier rigs pull better. Connect two or more rigs for more mass (and traction)

(EDITED per good feedback from @DaveInDenver ) Google: The formula for force = mass x acceleration.

A good way to see this is to play with inputs in the Safe Xtract App

 

[DaveInDenver]

Pull it all together, the intrepid 4x4'er will have ratings on rigging, usually in lbs (or lbf, pound-force). How does knowing theoretical kinetic energy in joules (or if you convert to English so have it in ft-lb) help prevent him killing anyone? Talk about how force, acceleration, distance relate energy to work moving a truck or where/how things might fly when you lose control. Is it even relevant to understand kinetic energy? I'm just curious how the physics is applied to training 4x4.

 

[Inukshuk]

Pull it all together, the intrepid 4x4'er will have ratings on rigging, usually in lbs (or lbf, pound-force). How does knowing theoretical kinetic energy in joules (or if you convert to English so have it in ft-lb) help prevent him killing anyone? Talk about how force, acceleration, distance relate energy to work moving a truck or where/how things might fly when you lose control. Is it even relevant to understand kinetic energy?

Yeah I quoted something wrong in haste.

Anytime I’ve done this kind of math I’ve used the inputs to get pounds outputs.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Yeah I quoted something wrong in haste.

Anytime I’ve done this kind of math I’ve used the inputs to get pounds outputs.

I suspect you want to refer to the force equation, force = mass x acceleration. This is Newton's 2nd Law for motion.

You can reverse that if you know force and mass to calculate how much you're going to accelerate an object. Then you can use your vectors to determine where it's going to fly. F = m x a is already a vector equation, too.

In S.I. unit force is Newtons, mass is kg and acceleration is m/s^2. In Imperial units force is lbf with ft/sec^2 for acceleration and pound-mass (lb) or slug for mass.

You can try to calculate potential energy based on positions or use kinetic energy once it's in motion but that's not useful to know. You need displacement to get useful information.

 

[DouglasVB]

I just wanna say that I got to use my aluminum sand ladders for the first time in a decade a month or so back. I've got some info on that recovery here: https://risingsun4x4club.org/xf/threads/building-a-toyota-that-fits-douglas.35396/post-459050

And they look like this (I've got two pairs and in the photo they're tied together in sets.

My aunt and uncle had them made in Egypt when they were living there 30 years ago. They saw a lot of action in the Faiyum Desert and further west back in the day but until recently I haven't encountered much deep sand in the western USA (aside from Medano Pass).

I've also got some ultra cheapo Amazon special traction boards (we're talking REALLY cheap) that I've used a few times to extricate passenger vehicles from snow. I used them in addition to the sand ladders a month or so back to get that car out of the sand.

I'm still pretty excited about FINALLY using this gear I've been carrying FOREVER in my trucks

Oh also... I've got mostly metal shackles but recently acquired a soft shackle which I really like. And on my current truck I'm running a synthetic line which I much prefer to the steel line on my old truck. I need a better solution for the thimble at the end of the winch line though -- the "stealth bumper" that my truck came with has the winch line exiting in an angled downward direction so the hawse fairlead is the first thing to come in contact with the ground with a steep approach angle. Or in this case it's the thimble on the end of the winch line I need a better solution for this until I eventually get a better bumper. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears!

I've also got an ARB snatch strap, an ARB tree saver, a Harbor Freight tree saver, a Harbor Freight snatch block, a tow strap, and some other doodads. I'd like to get a winch extension line and some more soft shackles.

I really wish we were still in Colorado so I could participate in the annual recovery events. They seem really cool and useful.