AxleIke
Hard Core 4+
Fair Points All.
Romer, I don't see that experience with hardly any of my friends from college. Its not just my experience I am drawing from. There were the psychology degrees, many business degrees, a religious studies degree, physics, engineering, and a math major. Guys with business degrees are doing very poorly, either unemployed or working low salary, few benefit jobs. Guys with physics degrees are back in school=no work for lower than a masters in that field. Religious studies guy went on to seminary and, from what I've heard, is doing well as an assistant minister at a church. Psychology folks, mostly ladies, are doing well in that they are doing what they love, but are poorly compensated. Engineering guys are doing about as expected, around 50k, but have been laid off and rehired 3x already (one only twice). Math major became a teacher.
I agree that there are more benefits than just salary, but lets estimate 10k ish in benefits. Only my benefits are better than Rachels, and I work for the state. Everyone else I know is not getting near that, and are at decent sized company's. So bump everyone's salary by 10K, and yes, they are doing what I would consider the minimum expected salary for a college grad. Again, except me. I'm still behind. My choice, and my bad. I am rectifying the situation by pursuing further education, as, in the sciences, that opens a lot more doors.
I'm guessing Rachel is a fair cut smarter and is much more driven than my friends, if her father is any indication (I don't know her at all). Meaning, she is above average, and therefore is doing above average in her professional life.
Current tuition rates at a major university would leave a 50k debt very easily for in state students. I don't know rachel's situation, but until you are 23, you MUST submit parental tax information for financial aid. Dependant status has no bearing on financial aid. My fiance's father makes about 60k a year. She was not able to get grant assistance, and had to take out all loans. She did qualify for federal loans, which I did not, but still, getting grants is reserved for only the very poor.
Now, Randy, you are correct, it is by no means any company's responsibility to make sure you are doing well. Absolutely not. That wasn't my point. It was simply that, if you wish to be at that financial position when you want to start a family, a college degree won't get you there. When my parents were college grads, it would have.
You will need a professional degree, and even there, family building will have to wait to early to mid 30's. Given what I've read about how to survive in a marriage, not having to worry about money gives you a MAJOR advantage over those who do.
Financially, if you can make the same and not start out 50k in debt, then again, my point about the uselessness of college is valid. True, I am glad I went to college, and have learned that I will get paid whatever I'm told I'll get paid because college grads are a dime a dozen. However, I don't have the same work conditions as someone who is working construction, and I have a steady pay check.
That is worth it to me.
Again, I remind all that my original post was posted in a different thread. Tim moved it here without the original thread's context. I was responding to a guy who said that he was looking for a job, did not like school, and wanted to ski. I was responding to folks who were advocating that he go back to school rather than do what he wanted. I was offering a contrary opinion.
Now, as to my stereotypical comment. Perhaps you and Romer know more than most. However, I know how my parents generation view college degree's, and it is not applicable for today's youth. Like I said, company's have thousands of college grads to choose from. However, even some of them have told me that college is not enough. Graduate/Professional school is a must.
Some, like Rachel, stand out, and are thus rewarded. But, most of us do not fall into that category. The majority of college grads have really nothing to offer that a company can't find in 100 other applicants. This drives the market value of those jobs down.
Now, true, there are many other advantages of having a desk job versus standing out in the rain digging ditches.
Financially though, if someone doesn't like school, the advantages of college degrees aren't the same as they used to be.
Lastly, it surprises me that you see graduates being lazy, showing up late and leaving early. Both my, and my friends', experiences have been that those people are gone very shortly. Working extra is expected. 40 hours a week will barely keep you employed. If you wish to see a raise, long hours, and high productivity is a must. Raises come regularly, but are generally a percent or so above cost of living. Only one of my friends gets a yearly bonus, and it isn't 1.5%.
Anyway, I will apologize for my generic comment about older members. I agree, it wasn't fair, as you two have clearly a good understanding of what's what. My apologies, and I hope for your forgiveness for an ill conceived comment.
Romer, I don't see that experience with hardly any of my friends from college. Its not just my experience I am drawing from. There were the psychology degrees, many business degrees, a religious studies degree, physics, engineering, and a math major. Guys with business degrees are doing very poorly, either unemployed or working low salary, few benefit jobs. Guys with physics degrees are back in school=no work for lower than a masters in that field. Religious studies guy went on to seminary and, from what I've heard, is doing well as an assistant minister at a church. Psychology folks, mostly ladies, are doing well in that they are doing what they love, but are poorly compensated. Engineering guys are doing about as expected, around 50k, but have been laid off and rehired 3x already (one only twice). Math major became a teacher.
I agree that there are more benefits than just salary, but lets estimate 10k ish in benefits. Only my benefits are better than Rachels, and I work for the state. Everyone else I know is not getting near that, and are at decent sized company's. So bump everyone's salary by 10K, and yes, they are doing what I would consider the minimum expected salary for a college grad. Again, except me. I'm still behind. My choice, and my bad. I am rectifying the situation by pursuing further education, as, in the sciences, that opens a lot more doors.
I'm guessing Rachel is a fair cut smarter and is much more driven than my friends, if her father is any indication (I don't know her at all). Meaning, she is above average, and therefore is doing above average in her professional life.
Current tuition rates at a major university would leave a 50k debt very easily for in state students. I don't know rachel's situation, but until you are 23, you MUST submit parental tax information for financial aid. Dependant status has no bearing on financial aid. My fiance's father makes about 60k a year. She was not able to get grant assistance, and had to take out all loans. She did qualify for federal loans, which I did not, but still, getting grants is reserved for only the very poor.
Now, Randy, you are correct, it is by no means any company's responsibility to make sure you are doing well. Absolutely not. That wasn't my point. It was simply that, if you wish to be at that financial position when you want to start a family, a college degree won't get you there. When my parents were college grads, it would have.
You will need a professional degree, and even there, family building will have to wait to early to mid 30's. Given what I've read about how to survive in a marriage, not having to worry about money gives you a MAJOR advantage over those who do.
Financially, if you can make the same and not start out 50k in debt, then again, my point about the uselessness of college is valid. True, I am glad I went to college, and have learned that I will get paid whatever I'm told I'll get paid because college grads are a dime a dozen. However, I don't have the same work conditions as someone who is working construction, and I have a steady pay check.
That is worth it to me.
Again, I remind all that my original post was posted in a different thread. Tim moved it here without the original thread's context. I was responding to a guy who said that he was looking for a job, did not like school, and wanted to ski. I was responding to folks who were advocating that he go back to school rather than do what he wanted. I was offering a contrary opinion.
Now, as to my stereotypical comment. Perhaps you and Romer know more than most. However, I know how my parents generation view college degree's, and it is not applicable for today's youth. Like I said, company's have thousands of college grads to choose from. However, even some of them have told me that college is not enough. Graduate/Professional school is a must.
Some, like Rachel, stand out, and are thus rewarded. But, most of us do not fall into that category. The majority of college grads have really nothing to offer that a company can't find in 100 other applicants. This drives the market value of those jobs down.
Now, true, there are many other advantages of having a desk job versus standing out in the rain digging ditches.
Financially though, if someone doesn't like school, the advantages of college degrees aren't the same as they used to be.
Lastly, it surprises me that you see graduates being lazy, showing up late and leaving early. Both my, and my friends', experiences have been that those people are gone very shortly. Working extra is expected. 40 hours a week will barely keep you employed. If you wish to see a raise, long hours, and high productivity is a must. Raises come regularly, but are generally a percent or so above cost of living. Only one of my friends gets a yearly bonus, and it isn't 1.5%.
Anyway, I will apologize for my generic comment about older members. I agree, it wasn't fair, as you two have clearly a good understanding of what's what. My apologies, and I hope for your forgiveness for an ill conceived comment.
That sound more like when I got a real job after going to school
