Is Higher Education Worthless?

[DaveInDenver]

16 Shocking Facts About The Student Loan Debt Bubble And The Great College Education Scam

As you read this, there are over 18 million students enrolled at the nearly 5,000 colleges and universities currently in operation across the United States. Many of these institutions of higher learning are now charging $20,000, $30,000 or even $40,000 a year for tuition and fees. That does not even count living expenses. Today it is 400% more expensive to go to college in the United States than it was just 30 years ago. Most of these 18 million students have been told over and over that a "higher education" is the key to getting a good job and living the American Dream. They have been told not to worry about how much it costs and that there is plenty of financial aid (mostly made up of loans) available. Now our economy is facing the biggest student loan debt bubble in the history of the world, and when our new college graduates enter the "real world" they are finding out that the good jobs they were promised are very few and far between. As millions of Americans wake up and start realizing that the tens of thousands of dollars that they have poured into their college educations was mostly a waste, will the great college education scam finally be exposed?

For now, the system continues to push the notion that a college education is the key to a good future and that there is plenty of "financial aid" out there for everyone that wants to go to college.

Recently, U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan visited students at T.C. Williams High School in Alexandria, Virginia and encouraged them to load up on college loans....

"Please apply for our financial aid. We want to give you money. There’s lots of money out there for you."

So where will Arne Duncan be when those students find themselves locked into decades of absolutely suffocating student loan debt repayments?

What young high school students are never told is that not even bankruptcy can get you out of student loan debt. It will stay with you forever until you finally pay it off.

Today each new crop of optimistic college graduates quickly discovers that there are simply not nearly enough jobs for all of them. Thousands upon thousands of them end up waiting tables or stocking the shelves at retail stores. Many of them end up deeply bitter as they find themselves barely able to survive and yet saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt that nobody ever warned them about.

Sadly, the quality of the education that most of these college students is receiving is a complete and total joke.

Take it from someone that has graduated from a couple of very highly respected institutions. I have an undergraduate degree, a law degree and another degree on top of that, so I know what I am talking about. Higher education in America has become so dumbed-down that the family dog could literally pass most college courses.

It is an absolute joke. The vast majority of college students in America spend two to four hours a day in the classroom and maybe an hour or two outside the classroom studying. The remainder of the time these "students" are out drinking beer, partying, chasing after sex partners, going to sporting events, playing video games, hanging out with friends, chatting on Facebook or getting into trouble. When they say that college is the most fun that most people will ever have in their lives they mean it. It is basically one huge party.

Of the little "education" that actually does go on, so much of it is so dedicated to pushing various social engineering agendas that it makes the whole process virtually worthless. Most parents would be absolutely shocked if they could actually see the kind of "indoctrination" that goes on inside U.S. college classrooms today.

A college education can be worth it for those in very highly technical or very highly scientific fields, or for those wanting to enter one of the very few fields that is still very financially lucrative, but for nearly everyone else it is just one big money-making scam.

Oh, but you parents please keep breaking your backs to put money into the college funds of your children so that they can be spoon-fed establishment propaganda all day and party like wild animals all night for four years.

It really is a huge scam. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes.

But if you will not believe me, perhaps you will believe some cold, hard statistics. The following are 16 shocking facts about the student loan debt bubble and the great college education scam....

1. Americans now owe more than $875 billion on student loans, which is more than the total amount that Americans owe on their credit cards.
2. Since 1982, the cost of medical care in the United States has gone up over 200%, which is horrific, but that is nothing compared to the cost of college tuition which has gone up by more than 400%.
3. The typical U.S. college student spends less than 30 hours a week on academics.
4. The unemployment rate for college graduates under the age of 25 is over 9 percent.
5. There are about two million recent college graduates that are currently unemployed.
6. Approximately two-thirds of all college students graduate with student loans.
7. In the United States today, 317,000 waiters and waitresses have college degrees.
8. The Project on Student Debt estimates that 206,000 Americans graduated from college with more than $40,000 in student loan debt during 2008.
9. In the United States today, 24.5 percent of all retail salespersons have a college degree.
10. Total student loan debt in the United States is now increasing at a rate of approximately $2,853.88 per second.
11. There are 365,000 cashiers in the United States today that have college degrees.
12. Starting salaries for college graduates across the United States are down in 2010.
13. In 1992, there were 5.1 million "underemployed" college graduates in the United States. In 2008, there were 17 million "underemployed" college graduates in the United States.
14. In the United States today, over 18,000 parking lot attendants have college degrees.
15. Federal statistics reveal that only 36 percent of the full-time students who began college in 2001 received a bachelor's degree within four years.
16. According to a recent survey by Twentysomething Inc., a staggering 85 percent of college seniors planned to move back home after graduation last May.

 

[nakman]

That's interesting stuff for sure. It will be even more interesting seeing how the world changes in the next 10-12 years, at which time our kids will start thinking about college and we get to decide what they do. My favorite parts of the college experience was being poor, living with a bunch of dudes, and learning about real life- solving problems without mom & dad, owning up to the consequences of your own actions, making a name for yourself at a real job, etc. I think I grew more between 18 and 22 than any other 4-year timespan.. well at least since the 0-4 period, perhaps.

I was also able to get out of college without debt- tuition at CU was about $1200/semester and my employer helped with half of it, my folks kicked in the other half, and I bought all my books, supplies, everything else. I worked full time and went to school full time.. one of my best experiences ever. I'm also one of those rare folks who does exactly what their degree is in, I apply things learned in class almost daily, and still refer to some of my college textbooks. I wouldn't have my career if it weren't for my degree, and how I've applied myself.

 

[pmccumber]

It's from that aspect that I think higher education is largely a waste. Kids are coming out with so little appreciation of the traditional subjects (rhetorical and logical thinking, appetite for knowledge), next to no practical marketable skills (be it math, science or otherwise) and huge debts to boot. It just seems like such a waste.

I can't agree with this. My kids are so far outstripping what I learned in an excellent Wisconsin school system. I have a 4th and a 7th grader and they are in accelerated courses here in Boulder County and it simply couldn't be better. I don't move because of these schools.

With respect to college, I've got two kids working for me that are in their late 20s and have been working for me for 4 years. One went to Rice and the other Utah. They are so incredibly prepared it is astounding. One has an EE and the other is CS. But both are right there with all the physics, optics, and math of state of the art R&D lasers. Just brilliant.

And I'm sorry, I've worked with 1/2 dozen MIT Phds in the last 6 years and two Cal Tech guys and that damn pedigree means something. MIT guys very rarely disappoint.

Does that mean that you can't be all that without a piece of paper? No. The highest paid employee out of 240 at my last semi company was a guy who never got a degree and played in a rock band until his 30s. He was worth every penny.

But that is the exception. The exception doesn't justify the statement that higher education is a waste of time.

Think of it this way: Are you going to encourage your kids to go to college? Hell yes. And why is that?

 

[nakman]

.... My usual answer is that no kid should go straight to college after high school, that they should take a year off and work and travel and be a young adult. I know I certainly wished I'd have done that.

I agree with you there, Dave, in my case it was two years of abysmal college right oughta high school, followed by a 2.5 year semester off. It was in that time when all the maturity & growth happened, not when we were raising hell in the dorms...

But after a good dose of real life I was instantly motivated to knock out college. I went every summer, switched majors from psych to business, grades went from academic probation to dean's list. In fact only way I got into CU Boulder was to start at CU Denver.. my grades weren't good enough at CSU to get into Boulder. For some reason the system gives you a new start on GPA when you transfer, so a year and a half later I was looking pretty good and Boulder said welcome.

My only regret is not taking the year off sooner, wouldn't have wasted those first couple of college years, I had to take half those classes over again anyway. Not that big of deal though, I actually don't mind the path I took one bit.

 

[pmccumber]

Paul, your points I think go towards my argument. I said in the previous post that there is no way an 18 year old kid could be expected to step right into professional engineering. That's obviously ridiculous. I've never had the chance to work with people of your level, but I do think you guys are on a different plane and respect that. I struggle mightily with what I do, it doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm still proud of it and work hard at doing my best at it.

I'm also not speaking to primary and secondary school in this thread. I have opinions on these things but they are not central to my statements here, that taking on $50,000+ in student loans so that you have an excuse to party and get a B.A. is a waste in principle. The student who is headed to engineering, physics, really any math or science track is not the prototypical example I have in mind. Even that is something of a tough one, half a dozen of my friends who got geology or chemistry degrees for example but could not afford to get get advanced degrees ended up in fields like construction.

Yes, I do tell kids who might ask me that unless you are going to major in something with a demonstrated future that maybe going to college isn't worth it. But also know that we do not have kids and are not going to have them, so I'll let you decide if telling cousins, nephews, nieces and family friends counts. My usual answer is that no kid should go straight to college after high school, that they should take a year off and work and travel and be a young adult. I know I certainly wished I'd have done that.

See now that lines up 100% with my views. 100 freaking percent. The neighbor kids both went to private schools, one done and the other with a year left. The kid that is done, great kid by the way, is unemployed 6 mos after graduation. Just saw him selling popcorn at the movie theater and I'm NOT making this up. (True Grit - LOVED IT!). The girl is getting a degree in music and well, ..., good for her I guess.

My niece graduated last weekend from Naropa. From the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets. Again, I am NOT making this up. Now she is going to Front Range Community to get pre-reqs out of the way so she can go get some "Nutrition" degree.

What do they all have in common? Massive dollars spent on degrees that have gotten them nowhere. Now if they could develop some firmware, they'd be kickin' down $75k out of school.

I'm not here to say that music, poetry, yoga, or any of that stuff isn't great because it most certainly is. And if you're of the means to do it or fund it, more power to you.

Nobody who looks like me is getting checks written in their behalf by this author for such pursuits however.

 

[Haku]

Read post #50, I think arts & lit are very important to personal balance and society. But that does not mean they are good careers. You and I are really arguing from the same basic viewpoint. I really don't want to see all universities turn into a fancy trade schools and job prep mills. I do like that some people decide that pursuit of more purely academic subjects is their calling. But for the majority of people I think the advice has been practically wrong. It has sure been a boon to higher education as a business, you know for all those humanities profs, though.

I think a better way to say this is "They are important, but don't lend themselves to the traditional career path". If you are good at what you do, and people like it, then it is a completely legitimate career. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be any rock stars, authors, orchestra's, or many other "cultural" people.

That said, do these people need to go to college? For some, yes, because it provides legitimacy and arguably will give them the skills and background to be successful. However, for most people, a masters degree is required minimum for the legitimacy factor. This is especially true for literature types, at least that is what my english/education major sister tells me (she has an EDS degree, which is between a Masters and Doctorate).

For many many others, its just the checkbox that you have been speaking of, and they don't even study what they want to do for a living. Take an artist for example, in the classic sense of the word. Maybe some of them benefit from 4 years of Art History classes and a few technique courses, but I get the feeling like they could have read up on their own, taken a few independent classes to learn technique and have been much better off financially and use the money they would have spent for college to explore what kind of art they really want to create and whether it is something they want to do as a lifelong career.

I do agree with you that most people who do not intend to go into a technical or professional field that requires a solid basis of knowledge on a subject to work in the field should really think hard about whether College is the right choice for them, especially right out of High School. Like I said before, you can get the "college experience" without actually attending college. Just move to a college town and live with college students, doing what they do for the other 138 hours (of 168) of the week that they do when they aren't studying. In the meantime, get a entry level job and actually work for a living. Try to find a job that they enjoy, and see if any career ideas pop up and whether going to school will really pay dividends.

For me, it didn't. I was lucky enough to have an affluent enough family that I would have had my way payed through college if it had been the right choice for me. In the end it wasn't, and the one semester I did was unfortunately wasted trying to find that out. I went to a college preparatory school, and it was definitely expected that I go directly into college afterwards. The only people at my school who didn't, went into the Military instead. I don't think anyone sat me down and said "you know, you don't have to go to college right away or at all". For my field (I'm a Lighting Designer/Technician for the entertainment and corporate theater world), four years of background theory, paying to work long hours doing shows, and coming out at basically the same level didn't sound like a good thing to me.

I worked many jobs, but the one that made this most evident to me was being a ticket checker and eventually ticket sales clerk at Vail Resorts for a summer. Every other person who worked there had a college degree of some sort, many of which were "recreational education" or some other bull**** degree. 20 to 24 years old, and not a one of them had a clue what they wanted to do with their lives. Not sure, but I know at least 1/4 of them stayed there for at least a couple years and climbed the ladder up into management. Would I have had any harder a time doing the same without a college degree had I chosen that path? Not a chance. Big difference is I was debt free and didn't have a worthless degree to show for it.

In the end, I was learning more working, and was getting paid to do the same stuff that the guys over in the tech theater department were paying to do, but on a smaller scale. So far, its worked out. I work, I learn, work a little more, learn a little more. If I can't learn it by doing, there are classes that can teach me that only take a couple days. Much better to spend $600 every other year going to a class that deals specifically what you want to learn then spending thousands learning "theory" and "filler" classes that most liberal arts colleges think enrichen a students life (but as far as I can tell are just a way to require them to be there for the full four years or more).

I love the career I am in, and a college degree isn't on any kind of life plan that I have right now. That might change when I'm 40-50 years old and I want to get out of the industry I am in (don't see it happening). If at that time I feel like I really need a degree, I'll look into it. That is the other thing I have figured out, its never too late to go back to school if you feel like you need to.

Lastly, I haven't found out since I'm a largely honest person, but as a 30 year old person, but this could be true of people younger too, I'm pretty sure I could say I have a full bachelors degree on a resume and get away with it. Only the bigger companies have the human resources capability to check that, and it would be especially true if you put a more obscure college. I could be wrong though, and can't say since I haven't put it to the test even though I have been tempted to try it.

 

[Caribou Sandstorm]

Ben Bernanke (sp?) one was on 60 minutes a few Sundays ago and said we are heaeded to two societies and that is concerning the goverment. He said unemployment for those with only a highschool diploma was 9% nation wide and those with a 4 year degree is at 5%.

Did anyone else see that interview?

Dave retirement is over rated...Many financial experts do not advise retiring in your 50s, based on the average wage earner is usually in their prime earning years and you won't have enough..

 

[Haku]

Ben Bernanke (sp?) one was on 60 minutes a few Sundays ago and said we are heaeded to two societies and that is concerning the goverment. He said unemployment for those with only a highschool diploma was 9% nation wide and those with a 4 year degree is at 5%.

Did anyone else see that interview?

Dave retirement is over rated...Many financial experts do not advise retiring in your 50s, based on the average wage earner is usually in their prime earning years and you won't have enough..

You can't look at just one statistic without looking at others too, namely that people who can afford to go to college tend to be better connected and have easier time finding work just by the fact that they are largely middle class.

I can see the "two societies" thing though, and it concerns me too. My dad would agree with you on the retirement thing. He's coming up on 70 and while he can fully afford to be retired, he got so restless that he is starting a new business. I wouldn't call him completely "un-retired", but this is the third time he has come out of retirement to some degree.

 

[Jenny Cruiser]

Wow. That was an unexpectedly painful read. I had hoped he would attempt to answer his question, but in the end it looks like his "example is a crude one" and he's "not qualified to say."

Pausing to evaulate education from a financial perspective may make for a good rant, but it is never is good for a marriage.

"Is a college degree worthless?" - I think the answer to that question goes without saying.

 

[Chris]

Dave retirement is over rated...Many financial experts do not advise retiring in your 50s, based on the average wage earner is usually in their prime earning years and you won't have enough..

Don't knock it until you try it... Many financial experts will be working past 65 because they can't afford to retire.

Oh yeah, and then when they do retire they'll drop over dead within 6 months.

 

[AxleIke]

Get a job in construction. You'll make good money and don't need to finish school to do it. If you hate school, don't waste your time. You can make plenty of money without a degree. You'll just have to work harder.

A college degree is mostly pointless in this day and age. Its the new high school diploma. Without a further, professional degree, you won't make much. Certainly not enough to warrant the expense. I have friends who make very good money, I'm not much older than you. They all have MBA's, or JD's. Don't waste your time on college unless you are willing to do more.

No offense to other club members, but unless you are young, you don't have a good read on the job market. The old rules don't apply. The only degree that makes good money right out of college is engineering, and that doesn't hold a lot of potential for salary increases, rather, it tends to plateau. A masters is generally the best choice, as you can actually make good money, and it doesn't take the time that a doctorate does.

 

[Air Randy]

No offense to other club members, but unless you are young, you don't have a good read on the job market. The old rules don't apply.

Wow, I guess since I am not "young" my 35 years of experience managing a business (still do) with 700+ employees doing over $1B of business annually doesn't count? Or the fact that I am directly involved with setting the hiring standards for that organization?

Frankly, I think telling someone a college degree is worthless is bad advice, and I never went to college myself.

To be clear, getting a college degree by itself is no guarantee of instant success. You have to get a degree that is relevant to the career field you want to pursue and recognize the degree only helps you get your foot in the door starting at the bottom so you can gain experience. From that point on what really matters is how you perform. Are you reliable; do you work hard and are you willing to make the little extra sacrifices; can you work with others effectively and do you learn and grow your knowledge base? Those are just a few of the traits we look for in our people that get them promoted with commensurate pay increases.

What I can tell you we see a lot of with the younger generation coming into the work force is a sense of "entitlement". These people (whether or not they have a degree) seem to think they are "owed" a job that starts at 50K per year with full benefits and 4 weeks of paid vacation. They're the same ones who think starting work at 8AM means showing up at 8:20 and being the first ones out the door at 5PM.

Then they're disappointed when they don't get promotions and pay increases even though they show up with a new masters degree. Which they then blame on degrees being worthless..................

 

[Romer]

Get a job in construction. You'll make good money and don't need to finish school to do it. If you hate school, don't waste your time. You can make plenty of money without a degree. You'll just have to work harder.

A college degree is mostly pointless in this day and age. Its the new high school diploma. Without a further, professional degree, you won't make much. Certainly not enough to warrant the expense. I have friends who make very good money, I'm not much older than you. They all have MBA's, or JD's. Don't waste your time on college unless you are willing to do more.

No offense to other club members, but unless you are young, you don't have a good read on the job market. The old rules don't apply. The only degree that makes good money right out of college is engineering, and that doesn't hold a lot of potential for salary increases, rather, it tends to plateau. A masters is generally the best choice, as you can actually make good money, and it doesn't take the time that a doctorate does.

Issac, I disagree based on my experiance and that of my daughters

Rachel graduated with a Business Degree and is making great money. I was in fact amazed at how much they started here at right out of college. Many of the large companies are hiring and you can't get on without a degree. A lot depends on how well you can sell your self and how your resume comes across. If the Resume doesn't catch me in the first half a page, I move on to the next.

Now if you get a degree in English, Psychology or Political science, the market is not very kind to you unless you get a higher degree

Back to the original question, craigslist, denverbusiness journal has postings

The big companies are hiring a few positions that don't require a degree. Look at the largest employers like Lockheed, Raytheon, IBM, HP, etc

It takes a lot of work to get a job and its all about impressions

 

[Mendocino]

[snip]... with 700+ employees doing over $1B of business annually...

Wow! That's impressive revenue to headcount,that's ~$1.5m per employee; nice productivity.

 

[Air Randy]

Wow! That's impressive revenue to headcount,that's ~$1.5m per employee; nice productivity.

The 700 HC are just my nationwide team of PM's, engineers, construction managers, etc involved with the deployment and operation of the systems. There are also distribution and corporate headcount that would go into the equation but it's still a pretty good business.

 

[timmbuck2]

my 2 cents are it really depends on your field...I went to college but after 3.5 years I changed majors, then never finished...and I never finished because I got into the software support and development field, and could not afford to go back and finish because I was making good money. Even now when I interview for new projects a degree is the last thing they care about, in fact I don't even remember the last time I was asked...it is more about what current skills and technology do you have. Obviously each field is completely different. Also the college experience can be a huge part of the maturation process and many important life lessons and life skills can be learned in college regardless of the type of classes you take, or if you finish...

 

[AxleIke]

Wow, I guess since I am not "young" my 35 years of experience managing a business (still do) with 700+ employees doing over $1B of business annually doesn't count? Or the fact that I am directly involved with setting the hiring standards for that organization?

Frankly, I think telling someone a college degree is worthless is bad advice, and I never went to college myself.

To be clear, getting a college degree by itself is no guarantee of instant success. You have to get a degree that is relevant to the career field you want to pursue and recognize the degree only helps you get your foot in the door starting at the bottom so you can gain experience. From that point on what really matters is how you perform. Are you reliable; do you work hard and are you willing to make the little extra sacrifices; can you work with others effectively and do you learn and grow your knowledge base? Those are just a few of the traits we look for in our people that get them promoted with commensurate pay increases.

What I can tell you we see a lot of with the younger generation coming into the work force is a sense of "entitlement". These people (whether or not they have a degree) seem to think they are "owed" a job that starts at 50K per year with full benefits and 4 weeks of paid vacation. They're the same ones who think starting work at 8AM means showing up at 8:20 and being the first ones out the door at 5PM.

Then they're disappointed when they don't get promotions and pay increases even though they show up with a new masters degree. Which they then blame on degrees being worthless..................

Again, I said no offense.

However, I think you proved my point. Coming out of college with an expectation of 50k a year is not a sense of entitlement. Rather, its the hiring department that thinks it is. Given the amount of debt that most students come out of college with, 50k a year is just good enough. I think more college grads should be demanding at least 50k. If an employer doesn't want to hire them, then that is their perogative. But college grads should wisen up and drive the market value of their education up.

I would expect that an employer would be looking for college graduates and starting them between 50 and 60. That is lower middle class range. This allows them to be mid-middle class by the time they wish to start a family.

Rather, you can get a GED, go into construction and do 30k a year, without the debt, and the wasted time.

To that end, I argue that, if indeed a 50K salary is considered an entitlement by companies, then a college education is, salary wise, worthless.

To be clear, my post was moved from another thread and my response was directed to an individual who stated that he did not like school, and wanted to get a job.

To romer's point, I guess a college degree can be helpful in a business environment, but one could argue that many people start businesses without degrees, and do very well. I'm not sure what business your daughter is in, but I'd say that she is the exception, rather than the rule, making big bucks with a degree.

Again, master's degrees and professional degrees pay off. My best friend is an attorney, and his wife has an MBA and is a CPA. Starting salaries for both were well into the 100's.

 

[AxleIke]

Wow, I guess since I am not "young" my 35 years of experience managing a business (still do) with 700+ employees doing over $1B of business annually doesn't count? Or the fact that I am directly involved with setting the hiring standards for that organization?

Frankly, I think telling someone a college degree is worthless is bad advice, and I never went to college myself.

To be clear, getting a college degree by itself is no guarantee of instant success. You have to get a degree that is relevant to the career field you want to pursue and recognize the degree only helps you get your foot in the door starting at the bottom so you can gain experience. From that point on what really matters is how you perform. Are you reliable; do you work hard and are you willing to make the little extra sacrifices; can you work with others effectively and do you learn and grow your knowledge base? Those are just a few of the traits we look for in our people that get them promoted with commensurate pay increases.

What I can tell you we see a lot of with the younger generation coming into the work force is a sense of "entitlement". These people (whether or not they have a degree) seem to think they are "owed" a job that starts at 50K per year with full benefits and 4 weeks of paid vacation. They're the same ones who think starting work at 8AM means showing up at 8:20 and being the first ones out the door at 5PM.

Then they're disappointed when they don't get promotions and pay increases even though they show up with a new masters degree. Which they then blame on degrees being worthless..................

Also, I hope that you do not take offense at my comments. They are intended as merely discussion, and are not meant to be personal in any way. I apologize if any of it comes across offensive, or is taken wrong. I do not intend either offense or to incite any ill will.

 

[Romer]

To romer's point, I guess a college degree can be helpful in a business environment, but one could argue that many people start businesses without degrees, and do very well. I'm not sure what business your daughter is in, but I'd say that she is the exception, rather than the rule, making big bucks with a degree.

Again, master's degrees and professional degrees pay off. My best friend is an attorney, and his wife has an MBA and is a CPA. Starting salaries for both were well into the 100's.

Still not in agreement
Every large company has a large business group, medium IT group, small contracts and marketing group, small communication group. Every large company. I am an executive at a very large company and see how many other areas are hiring, what type and how much.

Your viewpoint is based on your experience. Randy and I have worked at multiple large companies and have kids that have gone into the job market.

Rachel is in the business group of a large company, with full health Insurance, 401K, yearly 1.5% bonus with the potential to reach 6 figures in 10-15 years if she performs well and go far beyond that.

Rachel graduated debt free, mostly thanks to her parents. However, there are grants and scholarships out there and on average she could have gone through on her own with the $$ available without my help (not being a dependent) and had debt of $20K or so. Even if it was $50K, the math still works out for the LONG Term. Most parents help there kids to some point.

I put myself through college completely and had to pay off student loans in the 80's. Main reason I wanted to help my kids. The alternative you mention just doesn't make sense mathematically or from a long term career point of view

I admit this is based on my perspective, which I think is very broad based on what I have done.

You have to factor in more than just a salary, there are a lot of benefits

100% match of first 4% 401K is worth $2200 a year

1.5% bonus is worth $1500 a year

Having to pay $35/ month for full health insurance (health, Dental, Vision) with $30 deductible is worth several thousand dollars a year.

Paid for continuing education to get a higher degree

3 weeks of vacation to start, 4 weeks after 5 years is a big benefit

Some places still offer pensions

Not being in a cyclable business like construction provides increased job security

I can see someone who doesn't want to do Business, IT, engineering, etc and wants a career in construction shouldn't go to college. It helps to know what you want and figure out the best plan to get there. Going to school with a Political Science Degree is not a plan. Sarah was originally thinking of taking English. We went and talked to the college English department and I asked a post grad what kind of job she could get and she didn't know. Sarah then decided to get an engineering degree at CSU

My point is (no offense intended) your point is to generic on not going to college even though it was pointed at an individual. You got to have a plan.

 

[Air Randy]

AI-Coming out of college with an expectation of 50k a year is not a sense of entitlement.
RR-It depends. If you have a law degree it may be a little low but a law firm will still expect you to start at the bottom, prove your ability, then work your way up from there. If you have a basic engineering degree and zero job experience 50K in my industry (along with all of the other benefits) is pretty good.

AI-I would expect that an employer would be looking for college graduates and starting them between 50 and 60, this allows them to be mid-middle class by the time they wish to start a family.
RR-You would have really liked working in Germany with that attitude. They were very big on social engieering of wage structures, but it also resulted in a 20% unemployment rate. Since when is it supposed to be a company's responsibility to ensure you are earning "middle class" wages by the time you want to start a family? You prove my point about the expectation of entitlement. The level a company starts you at is based on market value for your skill level and nothing else. How fast you progress and increase your income is largely up to you.

AI-Rather, you can get a GED, go into construction and do 30k a year, without the debt, and the wasted time.
RR-And, if working construction the rest of your life and making 30K a year plus occassional cost of living increases will make you happy, then I agree with you. That is actually how I started out, no degree and in construction. I got tired of inconsistent paychecks when the weather was bad, potential long periods of unemployment between projects, and never having much opportunity for career or salary growth. So I changed careers, lucked out and got hired without a degree and started with an annual salary of 10K per year. It's taken me 34 years to get to where I am today. To that point, I was incredibly lucky to get hired without a degree even at an entry level. That does not happen today. And, if I had a degree I suspect I could have advanced further and quicker than I did.

AI-Again, master's degrees and professional degrees pay off.
RR-Again, as a blanket statement, I disagree. I have folks with multiple Phd's who make less money than people with bachelor degrees, and other phd's who are fabulously compensated. So much of it depends upon the individual and how they use their knowledge and skills.

Finally, I am not offended by your original comments. At the same time I will always take you to task when you make stereotypical comments implying that anyone who isn't "young" isn't qualified to comment on the job market today.