Final Straw & what would you do? A rant about a 2023 Tundra and Toyota

[DaveInDenver]

My boy's mom had to replace the engine and the tranny on her Subaru (different times but both times going up to the Eisenhower tunnel) within 5 years of buying it brand new! She had to wait over 3-4 months each time because so many other Subaru's were getting new engines and trannies! A guy who was looking at the LX I sold has a built Subaru and said he had to replace the engine and tranny on his too, but he loved it? Anyway she now has a new Rav4 Hybrid and loves it.

Ray, I have been on the market for a new Tundra for awhile now, and all the horror stories have kept me from taking the 3rd gen plunge. I don't think the issues with your truck are over...just starting from what I have read. Does the Colorado lemon law apply here? I would get out of the 3rd gen and into a low mile 2nd gen asap!! Too many people having major issues, not just the engine issues...

Yeah, I dunno. Ours has been fine and is going on 7 years old.

Probably important to mention that I did *not* follow Subaru's recommendation on oil change intervals and weight to the letter. I'm following the severe duty schedule they suggest for the turbo engine. Ours is *not* a turbo, plain FB25 engine.

I really did not like the CVT/auto Subaru at all when I drove it and that's what most of them are now. Ours is plain stick shift, party like it's 1999. Note also ours is somewhat atypical of U.S. cars being a Japanese one. Outbacks are more common and they're all U.S.-made.

I never meant to imply Subaru is perfect and their engine HG issues are not some top secret thing. My point in this case was only that the moment I sat it in I thought to myself "This could be a 1996 Camry" the way it was designed and built. Just felt that way to me, kind of like I was sitting in my 1991 pickup again to be honest.

 

[timmbuck2]

Did this happen to you, too? Still happening with 2024 models. My big butt would break this the first week!

 

[RayRay27]

To add insult to injury I had multiple vehicles parked outside last Thursday night when a pretty nice hail storm rolled through Thornton dropping chronic flakes and golf ball sized hail on my ass.

Ring #AlwaysHome

Check out this video! I just captured it with my Ring Camera!

ring.com

The Tundra now has nearly 10 gggggggggg's worth of hail damage.

At least I have insurance.

 

[Jcbmx]

View: https://youtu.be/oHYlqQaywTA?si=034lL5cSMiii95PF

 

[Jenny Cruiser]

I'm not sure I understand. What has gone wrong with your Tundra?

 

[Pz10420]

I've bought one new car in my life, a 2005 Subaru and I will never buy a new car again. It was a disaster of a vehicle that I hoped would give me many trouble free years. Since then, I've decided to buy used with known issues for the models, fix said issues and maintain it for a fraction of the price and disappointment of a new car. At least I am not surprised when stuff goes bad on a vehicle with a ton miles on it. I hope Toyota makes it right in the end for you, time will tell.

 

[IoN6]

It’s almost like Microsoft putting out a new product and relying on the consumer to find all the flaws!

What is referred to as minimum viable product. In other words, what is the crappiest product consumers will still gobble up.

 

[DaveInDenver]

What is referred to as minimum viable product. In other words, what is the crappiest product consumers will still gobble up.

Microsoft set that low bar with Windows 3.1 and never looked back! Moments of brilliance with NT and 7, which they corrected course back to collision post haste.

 

[RayRay27]

I'm not sure I understand. What has gone wrong with your Tundra?

It's all in my original post. The truck has had multiple recalls already ranging from gas filler tube tank fire, potential engine failure and replacement, transmission poping out if gear, tonneau cover might fall of truck while driving. Interior trim pieces and door seal replacements.

These are the two open recalls that I have on it now. Just your run-of-the-mill possible engine replacement and may catch on fire.

 

[Notyourmomslx450]

Just your run-of-the-mill possible engine replacement and may catch on fire.

 

[jps8460]

It’s unfortunate to see Toyota hit the gas on such a great refresh and stumble. It sucks Ray that you’re dealing with those issues. I’ll bet that you’re not far from lemon lawing it. And the hail WTF!?

We don’t get used to seeing this with Toyota/Lexus because they run the same technology (engine, electronics) etc for so long that those early adopter memories fade into the reliability we come to know and love. Hell the 2nd gen Tundra ran for 14 years!

When the 200series and the 2nd gem Tundra came out there were a ton of TSB’s and quite a few engine failures due to oiling issues, camshafts breaking and the crankshafts failing. Heck even Early 1gr’s had head gasket issues.

Of course we had to rely on forums and paper articles to get that news haha….. SM was still shittin yeller’

Any manufacturing or design engineer that’s been through a PPAP or V&V knows that it only takes 1 seemingly insignificant change to wreak havoc on even a small assembly line.

It sucks to be in that position, it sucks that Toyota corporate and the dealerships are 100% separate entities and are sometimes not strategically aligned

What I do know is that there isn’t a company on earth that strives to continuously improve like Toyota does; it’s why we’re all here on this forum. And, why there are so many companies that arrogantly try to “implement” the Toyota Production System. Shame on them for thinking they can do in a year what has taken Toyota its entire existence to build.

Am I defending Toyota, nah not really… but giving them the benefit of the doubt that they stumbled a bit by accident and are doing everything they can to fix it as soon as possible.

That sucks Ray, I say sell it or Lemon law it. Wait 3 years and get a new Tundra that you can give your kids.

 

[DaveInDenver]

@jps8460, do you suppose the fact that the Deming Method never caught on here might indicate that there's too much cultural difference for the Toyota Way to really work here? I mean, it's not like they're drawing from a magical well of talent to staff the North American (or indeed all of the Americas) offices and plants. For Toyota's production to work they rely on generations of Japanese work and life ethic. Toyota doesn't do layoffs so I've always wondered how someone who's gone through several UAW or white collar layoffs in Detroit would act when hired into Toyota. Sure it cuts both ways, some thrive, some slack. Probably why putting their plants in non-union places is critical, less clouded viewpoints and easier to build a loyal workforce without baggage.

 

[Squishy!]

Hey Ray, there are a lot of TLDR replies so maybe someone has covered this already. I'm a former Toyota tech and I'll try to keep it brief:

-If a dealership refused to fix an item within warranty, go to another dealer or call corporate. That's inexcusable and on the dealers head.

-The engine issues suck, they really do, but keep in mind the 5.7 had very similar issues (snapping camshafts) and those trucks had more rattles than a bag of bones.

-The volume of recalls are actually not much worse than new models when I was a tech 13 years ago. I can understand what they would shake your confidence, but Toyota is the best manufacturer at fixing the issues as far as I can tell. I understand the expectation that a new vehicle should be flawless, unfortunately the unhelpful adage about the first couple years of a generation is usually true. My 3/2023 Tundra has been flawless and I use it pretty hard.

I say this trying to bring a level of encouragement that this is not unusual, and that Toyota genuinely cares about you as a customer.

 

[jps8460]

@jps8460, do you suppose the fact that the Deming Method never caught on here might indicate that there's too much cultural difference for the Toyota Way to really work here? I mean, it's not like they're drawing from a magical well of talent to staff the North American (or indeed all of the Americas) offices and plants. For Toyota's production to work they rely on generations of Japanese work and life ethic. Toyota doesn't do layoffs so I've always wondered how someone who's gone through several UAW or white collar layoffs in Detroit would act when hired into Toyota. Sure it cuts both ways, some thrive, some stack. Probably why putting their plants in non-union places is critical, less clouded viewpoints and easier to build a loyal workforce without baggage.

Yes. I mean look at Nummi. Toyota held GMs hand and showed them how to make high quality cars…… in the end GM was like damn that’s hard and gave up (ultra paraphrasing with my own unfactual but kinda true dramatic twist).

 

[RayRay27]

Hey Ray, there are a lot of TLDR replies so maybe someone has covered this already. I'm a former Toyota tech and I'll try to keep it brief:

-If a dealership refused to fix an item within warranty, go to another dealer or call corporate. That's inexcusable and on the dealers head.

-The engine issues suck, they really do, but keep in mind the 5.7 had very similar issues (snapping camshafts) and those trucks had more rattles than a bag of bones.

-The volume of recalls are actually not much worse than new models when I was a tech 13 years ago. I can understand what they would shake your confidence, but Toyota is the best manufacturer at fixing the issues as far as I can tell. I understand the expectation that a new vehicle should be flawless, unfortunately the unhelpful adage about the first couple years of a generation is usually true. My 3/2023 Tundra has been flawless and I use it pretty hard.

I say this trying to bring a level of encouragement that this is not unusual, and that Toyota genuinely cares about you as a customer.

So I have tried two different dealerships to have issues fixed in my truck and they both came to the same conclusions. I am paraphrasing; "We tried to do something but until Toyota puts out a fix there is not much we can do". I have been told this by both Stevinson West and Mountain States. So I called Toyota corp. to let them know about the issue and file a claim. Typically what has happened is once the claim is filed, I am told that someone will call me back to follow up with the issue and get a better understanding on what is happening. This never happens. I always have to keep calling back to follow-up to see why no one has called me back and usually they tell me everyone is busy. Essentially nothing happens and the issue isn't fixed or solved.

When I called several months back to file a claim about my door seals and let them know that the dealership would not replace until Toyota put out a fix, the agent at Toyota corp. told me to just to continue to take it back to the dealership until they fix the issue(s). This to me is not how major car companies should be handling issues with there vehicles. I know Toyota doesn't have enough individuals to work with each person who has an issue with their vehicle's but you can't tell people "Just keep taking it back until it's fixed". At some point there needs to be a discussion or a plan between the dealership and Toyota corp to address problems with vehicles. It just can't be the consumers responsibility to keep taking time off from work to drive to multiple dealerships in hope that one of them will make an attempt to fix your car or truck.

I am sure that Toyota genuinely cares about their customers and the image of their vehicles and that's what makes this difficult at times because a lot of us in the club have had an opportunity to meet the designers, engineers, R&D folks and chief engineer for the Tundra and Taco and I know that they really care about they products that they bring to the market and they feel that their designs are on par or exceed what the Big 3 have but damn, as a consumer, you just feel stuck.

Sorry maybe a little long winded of a response.

 

[RayRay27]

What I do know is that there isn’t a company on earth that strives to continuously improve like Toyota does; it’s why we’re all here on this forum. And, why there are so many companies that arrogantly try to “implement” the Toyota Production System. Shame on them for thinking they can do in a year what has taken Toyota its entire existence to build.

Am I defending Toyota, nah not really… but giving them the benefit of the doubt that they stumbled a bit by accident and are doing everything they can to fix it as soon as possible.

That sucks Ray, I say sell it or Lemon law it. Wait 3 years and get a new Tundra that you can give your kids.

That's what makes it tough to deal with because we know most of the folks that had a hand in developing the Tundra, Sequoia and Taco and I know that they would never compromise quality, dependability and reliability so I don't want to crap on them too bad but as a consumer you just feel stuck.

 

[RayRay27]

@jps8460, do you suppose the fact that the Deming Method never caught on here might indicate that there's too much cultural difference for the Toyota Way to really work here? I mean, it's not like they're drawing from a magical well of talent to staff the North American (or indeed all of the Americas) offices and plants. For Toyota's production to work they rely on generations of Japanese work and life ethic. Toyota doesn't do layoffs so I've always wondered how someone who's gone through several UAW or white collar layoffs in Detroit would act when hired into Toyota. Sure it cuts both ways, some thrive, some slack. Probably why putting their plants in non-union places is critical, less clouded viewpoints and easier to build a loyal workforce without baggage.

I think so. I think that's why Toyota/Lexus only build certain models in Japan. They are concerned about quality and manufacturing issues.

 

[RayRay27]

Did this happen to you, too? Still happening with 2024 models. My big butt would break this the first week!

This didn't happen to me yet. I put White Knuckle off-road sliders on my truck so I try to step out of the truck onto the slider first instead of just sliding my ass across the edge of the seat and plastic. From my understanding Toyotas response to fix this issues was to just tell people to stop sliding out of the seat over the top the plastic trim to keep it from cracking. Not sure if this is official but who knows.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I think so. I think that's why Toyota/Lexus only build certain models in Japan. They are concerned about quality and manufacturing issues.

It would be an interesting case study to follow the arc of the Hilux (and I'd put Tacoma in the lineage for this purpose), here and globally. They were at first all Japanese at Tahara, then Japan/NUMMI in parallel and then all NUMMI, then San Antonio, then TX/Mexico in parallel and now all Mexico.

Anecdotally we know the Hilux/Truck/Tacoma goes through ebbs and flows of issues...

Also Hilux is now made in Thailand and South Africa. I wonder if those trucks took a hit when Hino stopped making them in Japan, too.

Toyota knows statistics for defects and production issues like stops and what-not. It'd also be interesting (to a very small number of us anyway) to know how Toyota structures affect this. We tend to just see "TOYOTA" on the tail gate but it's really structured like a bunch of contractors everywhere as wholly owned subsidiaries. Toyota North America makes the Tacoma with the momma ship Toyota's blessing. They don't necessarily make it exactly like they would in Japan or using the exact same suppliers and specs. So how much authority and leash they get would be interesting. Which would I think factor in who would and would not want to work for them, at least in engineering. I know how frustrating it can be for the top corporate guys to say "You have to use us" when a local domestic source would make more sense. One thing I find is North America especially in electrical generation and distribution isn't intuitive for Europe so it's a constant struggle with new products designed for 400V/50Hz being used on 460V/60Hz working weird or failing early.

 

[IoN6]

Yes. I mean look at Nummi. Toyota held GMs hand and showed them how to make high quality cars…… in the end GM was like damn that’s hard and gave up (ultra paraphrasing with my own unfactual but kinda true dramatic twist).

Great video on NUMMI:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjxZ2Eh9GrA