Engine swap for 84 FJ60

[Capriblue45]

I have an 1984 FJ60 that has a tired 2FE in it., 297K. I picked up a complete low milage 3fe a while ago with the thought of putting it in the 60. I was wondering if anyone has done this and what the pitfalls may be. I have a complete wiring harness and ECU with the 3fe. The other option is to do a complete rebuild on the 2F but the parts and machining are going to be fairly costly. I really want to keep this thing all Toyota. Thoughts?

 

[Rzeppa]

You mean a carbed 2F in the 1984 we assume? Some people (Jackson comes to mind) put the 3FE head on a 2f to get the fuel injection of the 3FE on the bigger displacement of the 2F. If the 2F is tired, yeah machining and kitting the bottom end is some coin, depending on how much you farm out (machining, kit cost, etc.) and how much you keep in-house (disassembly, reassembly, pulling the motor, reinstalling the motor). I don't know anyone personally who has simply dropped a 3FE into their 60, but I believe the mechanicals (engine mounts, bellhousing, etc.) are a direct bolt up. I know the bellhousings on my later 2F motors are embossed with "3F" so I would speculate it would be a bolt up.

 

[Capriblue45]

Yes it currently has the 2F. I have test fit a spare bell housing from a 1985 FJ60 that I have, it also has the 3F casted into it and bolts up to the 3fe after the spacer for the auto is removed. Just curious if anyone has dropped in a complete 3fe and if there were any potential gremlins I should be aware of. I plan on removing and tearing down the 2F after the holidays and once that is done it may help sway my decision on rebuilding or not. My local machinist is quoting approximately $2,500 to machine the block and head plus any parts they may need for the valve train.

 

[RDub]

Proffitt’s has done a lot of 3FE swaps on 40’s as a way to improve performance and driveability while keeping all Toyota parts. They may be able to offer some advice. If you live in an emissions required area I would think all 3FE emissions parts, including dual cats, would be required. Not completely sure on that, though.

 

[jps8460]

Oh man! I saw 84 fj60 and 2FE and thought wow maybe it’s my old truck haha….. I always wondered what happened to Clifford.

2FE - It’s about as straight forward as swaps go. I’d probably never do it again.

While it was a nice boost in performance and drivability was Better, just not sure it was worth it. I can only imagine that a 3fe swap would be similar. You’d have to mess around with accessory placement a bit to do the whole swap, but by and large the wiring would still be the biggest pain (not really that bad)

And at the end of it all, you still have a platform where the majority of parts are NLA and still barely eeeking out the speed limit going up the hill.

I say rebuild the 2F and do a full resto on the carb, put a 5 speed in it and maybe put a delta regrind cam in there for a little extra and enjoy life in the slow lane

 

[Cruisertrash]

Oh man! I saw 84 fj60 and 2FE and thought wow maybe it’s my old truck haha….. I always wondered what happened to Clifford.

2FE - It’s about as straight forward as swaps go. I’d probably never do it again.

While it was a nice boost in performance and drivability was Better, just not sure it was worth it. I can only imagine that a 3fe swap would be similar. You’d have to mess around with accessory placement a bit to do the whole swap, but by and large the wiring would still be the biggest pain (not really that bad)

And at the end of it all, you still have a platform where the majority of parts are NLA and still barely eeeking out the speed limit going up the hill.

I say rebuild the 2F and do a full resto on the carb, put a 5 speed in it and maybe put a delta regrind cam in there for a little extra and enjoy life in the slow lane

Are there tangible gains from a mild Delta cam in a 2F? Is porting the head, going with larger valves, and doing other work to "open it up" and help it breath fairly necessary in a 2F if you're going down that road? Does it require major blueprinting and balancing? I'm slowly working towards rebuilding this spare 2F I have and trying to calculate what minimal gains can be had for the same price as simply refreshing the existing parts. Cam is a great example: if it needs polished and all that would a Delta cam cost roughly the same? Another example would be DIY port matching the manifold/head interface. I'm not trying to dump unnecessary money into a 2F going above and beyond a regular rebuild, but if I can be smart about what happens in the rebuild and eek out 10% more power ... then why not do it? And yeah, I know there's not much more to eek out of a 2F, and no I'm not interested in a 2FE, 3FE, LS, etc. I'm too dumb to work on anything beyond a simple 2F, and a 2F is just dumb enough to keep working for me.

I did it again, derailed someone else's thread. Apologies in advance.

 

[jps8460]

Are there tangible gains from a mild Delta cam in a 2F? Is porting the head, going with larger valves, and doing other work to "open it up" and help it breath fairly necessary in a 2F if you're going down that road? Does it require major blueprinting and balancing? I'm slowly working towards rebuilding this spare 2F I have and trying to calculate what minimal gains can be had for the same price as simply refreshing the existing parts. Cam is a great example: if it needs polished and all that would a Delta cam cost roughly the same? Another example would be DIY port matching the manifold/head interface. I'm not trying to dump unnecessary money into a 2F going above and beyond a regular rebuild, but if I can be smart about what happens in the rebuild and eek out 10% more power ... then why not do it? And yeah, I know there's not much more to eek out of a 2F, and no I'm not interested in a 2FE, 3FE, LS, etc. I'm too dumb to work on anything beyond a simple 2F, and a 2F is just dumb enough to keep working for me.

I did it again, derailed someone else's thread. Apologies in advance.

I think if one can muster a good bump in compression with a decked block (reducing squish distance) and a decked head. A regrind from delta would pay pretty good dividends. Obviously a proper Jim-c tuned carb would be in order (or if you’re handy with rebuilds and jetting/tuning carbs).

I wouldn’t bother with too much in the ballancing department as long as your piston, wrist pin and ring package weight isn’t way off (150grams?) With the way light loads and valve float at a sloth like 4000rpm id run it unless something was way different. In my opinion, “blueprinting” in the 2f realm is just verifying that the machine work was done properly and that the oil clearances are in spec. The rest is just checking against the manual during rebuilding. Leave the fancy stuff up to folks turning laps.

My gut says between the rebuild, the bump in compression/cam and a properly tuned carb you’d be easily a 15-20% increase and probably pick up some fuel economy.

Or you could dingle berry hone, ring slap it, lap some valves, and seal it up and drive it another 200k and take a cool trip with the leftovers 😃

 

[Cruisertrash]

I think if one can muster a good bump in compression with a decked block (reducing squish distance) and a decked head. A regrind from delta would pay pretty good dividends. Obviously a proper Jim-c tuned carb would be in order (or if you’re handy with rebuilds and jetting/tuning carbs).

I wouldn’t bother with too much in the ballancing department as long as your piston, wrist pin and ring package weight isn’t way off (150grams?) With the way light loads and valve float at a sloth like 4000rpm id run it unless something was way different. In my opinion, “blueprinting” in the 2f realm is just verifying that the machine work was done properly and that the oil clearances are in spec. The rest is just checking against the manual during rebuilding. Leave the fancy stuff up to folks turning laps.

My gut says between the rebuild, the bump in compression/cam and a properly tuned carb you’d be easily a 15-20% increase and probably pick up some fuel economy.

Or you could dingle berry hone, ring slap it, lap some valves, and seal it up and drive it another 200k and take a cool trip with the leftovers 😃

I guess with the bump in compression I’d be commuted to the high-test gas. For 20% more oomph on the I-70 inclines I’d do it. Probably not at 10% though. I’m definitely not trying to spin ANY 2F close to redline, but I figured a little basic balancing might help smoothness and longevity. If nothing else it will help ease my anxiety if I have to run it at 2800-3300rpm pushing up a hill for an extended time. I’m not an expert in such things though.

On my current motor I might just do some rings, a quick hone, and put a refreshed head on it to last until I rebuild the spare … I already have the head sitting on a shelf ready to go.

 

[DaveInDenver]

You can throw money at the 2F or 3FE (or indeed the 20R and 22R) and end up with a sweet engine on paper. And you can talk to your passengers about it during the same 3rd gear pull up to the Tunnels that shaved 5 seconds from before you did all the porting and polishing and RV grind cam and oversized valves.

Unless you go forced induction. Whole 'nuther ball game. That's the upside to being heavy and overbuilt. It'll take a mild turbo or blower without significant hit to reliability.

In the end think value using good quality and proven parts.

At some point in the journey...

 

[RDub]

The rough feel of a stock 2F is very likely mostly due to the log-style intake and exhaust manifolds, combined with the carburetor fed induction. Running a large I-6 through log manifolds creates all sorts of imbalances, and match porting, balancing, and a cam with more low end grunt won’t really change that much. Do whatever you have time and patience (and money) to it but don’t expect much more smoothness out of it.

I had a 1977 Alfa Alfetta GT years ago with a 2L I-4 with US-spec log manifolds. Even with fuel injection it ran fairly rough. I installed the factory cast iron Euro-spec header and exhaust and it changed it dramatically. Maybe apples to
Oranges, but moving away from the log exhaust manifold made it run like a sewing machine.

 

[jps8460]

I guess with the bump in compression I’d be commuted to the high-test gas. For 20% more oomph on the I-70 inclines I’d do it. Probably not at 10% though. I’m definitely not trying to spin ANY 2F close to redline, but I figured a little basic balancing might help smoothness and longevity. If nothing else it will help ease my anxiety if I have to run it at 2800-3300rpm pushing up a hill for an extended time. I’m not an expert in such things though.

On my current motor I might just do some rings, a quick hone, and put a refreshed head on it to last until I rebuild the spare … I already have the head sitting on a shelf ready to go.

You may not be held to premium, I think the factory CR is roughly 8:1, a bump to 9:1 with a good block decking (reducing squish) and some head resurfacing and a good cam grind and carb tune.

You could decrease squish distance, increase compression and displacement with a good crank offset grind if you can find bearings to support it. Offset grinds are usually a bit more $ than a healthy regrind, call it 2x.

One of the performance issues with the 2F is the “squish” distance. The research for its effect on pre-ignition post date any design considerations for the 2F.

The 3 2F cams I’ve measured only 1 was close to still being in spec….. same with stock valve springs after 35-45years of service haha.

Anyhow, back to the OP’s regular broadcast, deep apologies for the derail, it’s always fun to chat engines

 

[Corbet]

I’d decide if you want to stay stock, all Toyota, or other. What’s important to you?

If sticking with the 2F or 3FE you’ll need to embrace the journey at the speeds those options allow. If keeping up with I-70 traffic is your goal start looking at a V8 swap. In my experience if you’re happy with the end result you want care much about the cost to get there. But if the end result is not a smile on your face you’ll regret every penny.

 

[Rzeppa]

I had my head decked 0.050" when I had Safari Ltd build my 2F and haven't had to use premium. I run my static advance around 11° BTDC, and have both the regular vacuum advance and HAC hooked up and operating. My '78 FJ45 seems to have more centrifugal advance than my '87 FJ60, I can't run quite as much static advance on it as I can on my '71, '76 or '87.